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Author Topic: Please keep ads out of here  (Read 31388 times)
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« on: Jan 17, 2011, 11:55AM »

Hi All, can we please keep ads to the classified section. We have been allowing references in the 'found on the net' area too.
The place loses it's focus with a load of ads.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 17, 2011, 12:03PM »

A sticky here ( "Instruments" ) guiding future sellers might be useful.

I don't find the location of the classifieds ( under "Goodies" ) to be entirely obvious.

 ;-)
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 18, 2011, 04:16PM »

I'll "sticky" this topic and add a link to the Classifieds section.

http://classifieds.tromboneforum.org/


Edit 12/30/11:  The Classifieds section referenced in the link above is not functional as of the date of this edit.  Please use the following link instead:


http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/board,65.0.html
« Last Edit: Dec 30, 2011, 03:39PM by tbone62 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: Jan 18, 2011, 04:31PM »

What about ebay auctions? Can those stay in found on the net?
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 18, 2011, 06:47PM »

well, they don't belong here.
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 18, 2011, 07:35PM »

What about ebay auctions? Can those stay in found on the net?

Found on the Net is OK.  Not Instruments.  Please understand the difference.

This board (Instruments) is for talking about characteristics of instruments, playing feel, options, etc.  It is NOT for buying or selling.
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 18, 2011, 07:44PM »

I know.I thought you guys meant no stuff about buying/selling instruments in found on the net.
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 18, 2011, 07:52PM »

I know.I thought you guys meant no stuff about buying/selling instruments in found on the net.

Nope - Sorry if I was not clear. We're just trying to keep them out of Instruments section, and the Classifieds area is intended to be the primary place for ads.   :)
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 18, 2011, 07:52PM »

Okay.
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 19, 2011, 04:41PM »

MAYBE keep  dirtbags out 
like the vdirtbag  who   wanted  a non chinese
547  b/f  that looked  and played good  for  375  shipped
oh yes i will take it -dirtbag says
   and after i  found something
BACKED OUT  !
=======================
i really do appreciate  all the  help  with those  needing  trombones
  but the cheepskates  and chislers i can do  without
=======================
  lathe  --both  the local  guys i  have  working on bones  need  a lathe
so out went  a  check  for  600  to secure  a  vinty  KLAUSING   6 x 36
with  good things like  two chucks  /live  centers  etc
--------\
   still need another   small lathe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
--------------
spent a lot of time  answering  this turkey's  pms
 it got down to
i found  one --send me the  $$$$$$$$
---------------
also got  spammed   on ads  wanting to  know if i would take cashiers check
-------------
 the  moderators have been exceptionally tolerant 
 of  the trials  and tribulations    of  trying buying  tasting   
talking  tooting  and  just  a  whole world of  things about trombones
  since cyberspace it has become   just  so incredibly easy
   to  research   and source  multiple needs 
--------------
 so often parents   hit the instrument section
asking for  help  finding their  children  trombones
 this is  most  always     a very  nice  experience 
however  i  am still not  all for putting  the wee ones on elkhart  88hs
   

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« Reply #10 on: Mar 23, 2011, 08:05PM »

so... what if i posted something with a bunch of pictures of my trombone that i'm thinking about selling, to ask what the starting price should be? i'm not trying to sell it, just don't have much experience with selling... where should i put that post?
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« Reply #11 on: Mar 23, 2011, 08:30PM »

so... what if i posted something with a bunch of pictures of my trombone that i'm thinking about selling, to ask what the starting price should be? i'm not trying to sell it, just don't have much experience with selling... where should i put that post?
You are not trying to sell it? Then you need no price point.

You want to sell it? Then put it on ebay and I assure you the market will establish
a price point for you.

Incapable of searching the web for like items to know your market?
Don't try selling your wares.
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« Reply #12 on: Mar 24, 2011, 07:24AM »

I guess we have to define what an ad is. If someone is posting "news" about what their protégé tech is currently building, how much it costs, and how it's all the rage for pro players, I'd consider that an ad.
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 12, 2011, 06:20PM »

where do we post to sell something now that the ttf classifieds are shut down
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 12, 2011, 06:39PM »

where do we post to sell something now that the ttf classifieds are shut down


Ebay??

Craigslist??

Lots of good places to sell stuff.
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 13, 2011, 05:53AM »

There are also classifieds at Trombone.org.
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 15, 2011, 03:25PM »

Can we force this sticky on every point of entry of TTF?
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 16, 2011, 05:47AM »

M

5
o
   and
BA
=======================
i
  b
=======================
  l
so out went  a  check  for  600  to secure  a  vinty  KLAUSING   6 x 36
with  good things like  two chucks  /live  centers  etc
--------\
   still need another   small lathe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
--------------
spent a lot of time  answering  this turkey's  pms
 it got down to
i found  one --send me the  $$$$$$$$
---------------
al
-------------
 the  moderators 
 of  the trials  and tribulations    of  trying buying  tasting   
talking  tooting  and  just  a  whole world of  things about trombones
  since cyberspace it has become   just  so incredibly easy
   to  research   and source  multiple needs 
--------------
 so often parents   hit the instrument section
asking for  help  finding their  children  trombones
 this is  most  always     a very  nice  experience 
however  i  am still not  all for putting  the wee ones on elkhart  88hs
   


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« Reply #18 on: Sep 17, 2011, 09:05PM »

Can we force this sticky on every point of entry of TTF?

Nominated for Post of the Month!
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 30, 2011, 12:44AM »

I'll "sticky" this topic and add a link to the Classifieds section.

http://classifieds.tromboneforum.org/


tbone62, when I try to open this link in my browser it says that

"The Classifieds area is in the midst of a major upgrade.
Watch this space for the reappearance of the site, estimated to be 1 October 2011."

Has the classfields section changed to a different place or is somehow still not accessible??
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« Reply #20 on: Dec 30, 2011, 01:59AM »

tbone62, when I try to open this link in my browser it says that

"The Classifieds area is in the midst of a major upgrade.
Watch this space for the reappearance of the site, estimated to be 1 October 2011."

Has the classfields section changed to a different place or is somehow still not accessible??


The original classifieds are still inoperable.  The mods graciously created a new for sale topic here:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?board=65.0
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« Reply #21 on: Dec 30, 2011, 03:21AM »

Thanks for this information!
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 30, 2011, 03:26AM »

Duly noted! I posted the few I found in an attempt to learn more about them, but I shall migrated them to classified from now on. Thanks!
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 30, 2011, 05:31AM »

Note: if you found some interesting instrument you may be interested in buying, you can ask about it here or in "Found on the Net".  Offers to sell, trade, or buy are supposed to go in the Classified section.  Negotiations belong in the PM or e-mail areas.

To put it a little more bluntly:

"I found a Buescher Grand trombone.  What is it?" can go here.

"I want to buy an Elkhart Conn 88H" goes in Classifieds.

"I have one to sell you" in response to an ad goes as a PM.
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« Reply #24 on: Jul 29, 2012, 08:04PM »

I have not found the classified section for a long time. The link I have says it is down until 10/2011.

Is there a classified section?

Can someone post a link please?
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« Reply #25 on: Jul 29, 2012, 08:13PM »

Simple. Sign in and look at the bottom of the page.

Under "Forum Administration" you will see a classified section. (just above "recent posts")
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« Reply #26 on: Jul 29, 2012, 08:15PM »

I have not found the classified section for a long time. The link I have says it is down until 10/2011.

Is there a classified section?

Can someone post a link please?

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/board,65.0.html
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« Reply #27 on: Jul 30, 2012, 04:13AM »


Sweet!
Thank you
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« Reply #28 on: Aug 31, 2016, 07:56AM »

What about this type of posting?

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,94588.0.html
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« Reply #29 on: Aug 31, 2016, 08:19AM »

You will notice that it's an announcement.  Nowhere are prices mentioned.  If they were, I'd have moved it to Classifieds.

Feel free to ask questions about the new Shires Q series there, or on Ben Griffin's thread, or BrassGurus' thread.
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« Reply #30 on: Feb 12, 2018, 12:11AM »

Here’s a question: if this board isn’t for buying and selling, then why is the **STICKY** two lines up all about M&W Custom Trombones?  I could see leaving it as a regular post if the company founders are friends of the forum, maybe. But. A sticky? Doesn’t make sense to me.

And another sticky, “would you buy sight unseen” [paraphrased] .... seems like there’s plenty of buying and selling on this board.
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« Reply #31 on: Feb 12, 2018, 05:08AM »

Here’s a question: if this board isn’t for buying and selling, then why is the **STICKY** two lines up all about M&W Custom Trombones?  I could see leaving it as a regular post if the company founders are friends of the forum, maybe. But. A sticky? Doesn’t make sense to me.

And another sticky, “would you buy sight unseen” [paraphrased] .... seems like there’s plenty of buying and selling on this board.

Because it was information.... important information for this community at the time, so we let it stick around. It was, and is NOT an advert.... no price, no specifics. Information. It is sort of clear if you actually read that thread and this thread.
Do you not understand that an advert is ? either.... For Sale, Want to Buy, Want to Trade ... item specific.
New companies and/or new products can be announced as long as it is on a 'for information' basis.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #32 on: Feb 12, 2018, 05:57AM »

I've got to say, I tend to agree on the M&W thing. There are many new businesses that have open up related to trombones that don't have stickies. If we were to put up stickies for every single new trombone related business that opens up, we would be completely cluttered. Is there something about M&W custom trombones that differentiates it from other custom trombone companies?  I can think of several companies that frequently promote their trombones here on the Forum that would love to have a sticky, but don't have one.
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« Reply #33 on: Feb 12, 2018, 06:22AM »

There are a lot of stickies.  What about an official place for company liasons?  The Shires Q&A, threads about the Wessex stuff, the M&W thread, etc. etc. The classifieds to me makes more sense for it to be one-off stuff.  I have a trombone to sell for example.  This section could include pertinent information about new models, etc.
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« Reply #34 on: Feb 12, 2018, 09:53AM »

M&W are un-stickied and therefore effectively gone. I didn't realise there was such strong feelings out there. Hope you are all now happy.

Chris Stearn

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« Reply #35 on: Feb 12, 2018, 05:15PM »

I took a peak at this post out curiosity, given this thread started more than five years ago. I have no strong feelings at all about what gets stickies and what does not. If other vendors are not having widespread complaints, then certainly it must be okay the way it has worked till now.
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« Reply #36 on: Feb 12, 2018, 11:33PM »

Here’s a question: if this board isn’t for buying and selling, then why is the **STICKY** two lines up all about M&W Custom Trombones?  I could see leaving it as a regular post if the company founders are friends of the forum, maybe. But. A sticky? Doesn’t make sense to me.

And another sticky, “would you buy sight unseen” [paraphrased] .... seems like there’s plenty of buying and selling on this board.

I might point out that you registered here TWO DAYS ago, and Matthew and Michael (of M&W) have been frequent contributors for 10 years, long before they started their company.  I am an original member of this forum, as many of us are, having migrated here from the OTJ forum before this even existed.

I specifically avoid promoting my own products, and Michael and Matthew do the same.  Can't say that for some of the newer members who joined and post only for that purpose.
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« Reply #37 on: Feb 13, 2018, 03:31AM »

I didn't want M&W to be the subject of implications by members. A lot of people here do not realise that manufacturers are people like everyone.  Some makers are players and friends...  part of the community. Some people here don't get that.
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« Reply #38 on: Feb 13, 2018, 04:04AM »

Also one thing that I want to point out, Matthew and Michael were once part of Greenhoe, which was one of the biggest known custom made brands before being bought by Schilke.  The topic was sticked because it really is a huge life achievement for them and it is really paying off as many would argue that the M&W horns played better than the Greenhoes which they were once part of.  So I honestly don't see the big deal of it being sticked (which used to be) Don't know
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« Reply #39 on: Feb 13, 2018, 05:05AM »

Chris,

Some years ago when Chip Hoehler was a large part of TTF, promoting and introducing his line of "Hoehler Artiste" Wessex trombones, I asked that he identify himself in posts as a Wessex representative and artiste.
   After some resistance and debate, and the support of others on the forum who came to my defense, he eventually did so. But not until he used his EDIT function on his posts to go back into the threads he had contributed to, and edited his posts to make it appear that he had represented himself as a Wessex employee all along. Other members of the forum caught that out as well.

Chris, it would be hypocritical of me to not also ask you, yourself, to now identify yourself as a representative of Wessex in posts in future.

Thank you.
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« Reply #40 on: Feb 13, 2018, 05:08AM »

I might point out that you registered here TWO DAYS ago, and Matthew and Michael (of M&W) have been frequent contributors for 10 years, long before they started their company.  I am an original member of this forum, as many of us are, having migrated here from the OTJ forum before this even existed.

I specifically avoid promoting my own products, and Michael and Matthew do the same.  Can't say that for some of the newer members who joined and post only for that purpose.

Totally agree.
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« Reply #41 on: Feb 13, 2018, 05:10AM »

Chris,

Some years ago when Chip Hoehler was a large part of TTF, promoting and introducing his line of "Hoehler Artiste" Wessex trombones, I asked that he identify himself in posts as a Wessex representative and artiste.
   After some resistance and debate, and the support of others on the forum who came to my defense, he eventually did so. But not until he used his EDIT function on his posts to go back into the threads he had contributed to, and edited his posts to make it appear that he had represented himself as a Wessex employee all along. Other members of the forum caught that out as well.

Chris, it would be hypocritical of me to not also ask you, yourself, to now identify yourself as a representative of Wessex in posts in future.

Thank you.

Chris considering this guy is a spy I wouldn't tell him anything but name, rank, and the first 3 digits of your serial number.
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« Reply #42 on: Feb 13, 2018, 06:39AM »

Chris,

Some years ago when Chip Hoehler was a large part of TTF, promoting and introducing his line of "Hoehler Artiste" Wessex trombones, I asked that he identify himself in posts as a Wessex representative and artiste.
   After some resistance and debate, and the support of others on the forum who came to my defense, he eventually did so. But not until he used his EDIT function on his posts to go back into the threads he had contributed to, and edited his posts to make it appear that he had represented himself as a Wessex employee all along. Other members of the forum caught that out as well.

Chris, it would be hypocritical of me to not also ask you, yourself, to now identify yourself as a representative of Wessex in posts in future.

Thank you.

This has gone beyond what I am prepared to tolerate.  I have never been paid a cent by Wessex. I DO NOT represent them. I was asked if I would design a bass trombone as a fun project. I did and I stand by my (free) design.
I also helped my old friend Iain at Wallace mutes FOR FREE. I also have never been paid any fee by Mick Rath.
I am not an employee of any of the above and have never been.
I think I have had enough of this place now

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #43 on: Feb 13, 2018, 06:54AM »

Bonesmarsh, are you serious or just being an ass?

Chris has done nothing to deserve this treatment. I've never seen any of his posts come across and shilling for another company.

Hell, I've been a cheerleader for King and Shires, and now Bob Williams - they've never given me a cent. Should I identify myself as company rep too? Maybe I should put on my tagline that I teach at a college when I'm coming out in support of education on this and other forums?

And all over a Nick Edelstein post? Really?

Jackwagons.
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« Reply #44 on: Feb 13, 2018, 07:03AM »

Bonesmarsh, are you serious or just being an ass?

Chris has done nothing to deserve this treatment. I've never seen any of his posts come across and shilling for another company.

Hell, I've been a cheerleader for King and Shires, and now Bob Williams - they've never given me a cent. Should I identify myself as company rep too? Maybe I should put on my tagline that I teach at a college when I'm coming out in support of education on this and other forums?

And all over a Nick Edelstein post? Really?

Jackwagons.

Well since his ID on his page says he's a spy I doubt he's serious. I'll pick ass.
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« Reply #45 on: Feb 13, 2018, 07:37AM »

Bonesmarsh, are you serious or just being an ass?



Both, most likely. 
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« Reply #46 on: Feb 13, 2018, 09:30AM »

I hope so. I normally like Smershies posts.

I'm not a big fan of the Chris pile-on. Chris is good people.

I think maybe some feelings are getting hurt here that may not need hurtin'

...and some self interest in the person who recently set this old post on fire
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« Reply #47 on: Feb 13, 2018, 09:54AM »



...and some self interest in the person who recently set this old post on fire

Unfocused snark is never a good thing. If you think  you see something, call it out. It appears you're referring either to NickGrooves (who just asked a question) me (who has always wondered about that sticky) or Matt K (who made a suggestion about a way to solve the problem.) What "self interest" are you referring to here?
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« Reply #48 on: Feb 13, 2018, 09:57AM »

Unfocused snark is never a good thing. If you think  you see something, call it out. It appears you're referring either to NickGrooves (who just asked a question) me (who has always wondered about that sticky) or Matt K (who made a suggestion about a way to solve the problem.) What "self interest" are you referring to here?


Well he said "originally." I think that rules you out.
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« Reply #49 on: Feb 13, 2018, 10:05AM »


Well he said "originally." I think that rules you out.

Hmmm.. It appears that I missed some essential backstory that's no longer reflected in NickGrooves' posting history.
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« Reply #50 on: Feb 13, 2018, 10:09AM »

Well, that certainly escalated since last night...
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« Reply #51 on: Feb 13, 2018, 10:11AM »



I think maybe some feelings are getting hurt here that may not need hurtin'


Well it IS the internet.  That's kinda what we do here.   Way cool
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« Reply #52 on: Feb 13, 2018, 01:43PM »

Yeah, I just feel the need to step in when I feel like someone is being unfairly piled on. I'm sure Chris can take care of himself, but I'm more concerned with the fact that some people seem to make a sport out of pissing off some pros who are a good source of information on this forum. I'd rather not lose Chris's contributions as they are a hell of a lot more valuable than what most of us post on here.

I didn't see the M&W post as problematic in the least bit, and I have to admit I am seriously doubting the intentions of a new member who comes in just to question this specific thing, very likely so they can promote their self. If I'm wrong, I can always apologize.

I got no beef with Matt, Matt is good people.

Hmmm.. It appears that I missed some essential backstory that's no longer reflected in NickGrooves' posting history.

Pretty easy to do research on teh interwebs. The world exists well beyond this little corner of it.

Well it IS the internet.  That's kinda what we do here.   Way cool

Yes indeedy, and I wouldn't have it any other way!
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« Reply #53 on: Feb 13, 2018, 08:04PM »

Totally agree.  Chris (blast) has posted alot of enlightening posts over the years and was the one who posted the 1.5G thread which made me change my view of bass trombone playing as a whole and has inspired probably not only myself, but lots of users regardless of age, profession, etc.  Now, I know this is the internet we're talking about here, but if you're going to debate said user, at least PROVIDE sources in which quotes they stated and try to analyze as to best to each oneself on what they're saying and take their prospective.  I hope Chris the best and hope someone as wise as him, will stay and post more enlightening posts for many future users to see and learn from experience.  That attack or "debate" or whatever the hell that was, was just absurd and very little comprehension in what he was on about... let this be a warning to all.
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« Reply #54 on: Feb 14, 2018, 06:20AM »

I think I have had enough of this place now

Chris Stearn

Hair toss. Exit stage left (flouncing).



Please don't go, Chris. You're one of few here with knowledge of instrument design and building, plus practical experience of testing out the results at a high level. It would be a great shame to lose the benefit of your insights because of a little squabble.
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« Reply #55 on: Feb 14, 2018, 06:29AM »

I get a Blast out of reading these threads; very educational for a non-touring non-pro like me!

Why, yesterday I learned a new word; "jackwagon(s)"!

Yeah, let's keep it all civil, but let's keep pounding it out!

...Geezer
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« Reply #56 on: Feb 14, 2018, 03:04PM »

I dont understand you Bonesmarsh.  You have done this same accusation before against Ralph C. Sauer. I think we all agree that musicians like Chris, Ralph and Svenne is where we listen every word, because they have been through every scenario both as musicians, performers and pedagogues.

Bonesmarsh, think twice.  Clever

Leif
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« Reply #57 on: Feb 14, 2018, 05:29PM »

Oh, that is just great.  Bonesmarsh, self-serving jackass that he is, runs off one of the last remaining pros will to hang around here and share.  For free.  For the benefit of us amateurs.  That is great.

Hey, Bonesmarsh, grow up!  Pretend you are an adult.

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« Reply #58 on: Feb 14, 2018, 07:29PM »

Chris, it would be hypocritical of me to not also ask you, yourself, to now identify yourself as a representative of Wessex in posts in future.

No, what's hypocritical is only demanding that some individuals who are in some way associated with a manufacturer or brand identify themselves as representatives while giving others a free pass.

It is—at the very least—"suggestive" to note what the individuals you are demanding identify themselves mfg's representatives have in common, and what the individuals you're not demanding identify themselves as mfg's reps have in common. It's also "suggestive" to note the nature of an event that precipitated your calling out individuals to whom previously you gave a pass.

It is difficult to attribute the complete correspondence between the presence of the factor and the demand for identification and absence of the factor and the absence of the demand for identification to mere coincidence, and to avoid drawing the most obvious inference that arises from that correspondence: an inference that does you no credit.
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« Reply #59 on: Feb 14, 2018, 10:15PM »

Bonesmarsh, are you serious or just being an ass?

Chris has done nothing to deserve this treatment. I've never seen any of his posts come across and shilling for another company.

Hell, I've been a cheerleader for King and Shires, and now Bob Williams - they've never given me a cent. Should I identify myself as company rep too? Maybe I should put on my tagline that I teach at a college when I'm coming out in support of education on this and other forums?

And all over a Nick Edelstein post? Really?

Jackwagons.

YAWN. I wouldn’t spend good money watching you run around in a cheerleader outfit...... Ain’t it obvious that the Nicholas Boner Duo didn’t get any this holiday? Keep up the good thoughts and work. Nice stuff on YouTube.....
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« Reply #60 on: Feb 15, 2018, 04:00AM »

I dont understand you Bonesmarsh.  You have done this same accusation before against Ralph C. Sauer. I think we all agree that musicians like Chris, Ralph and Svenne is where we listen every word, because they have been through every scenario both as musicians, performers and pedagogues.

Bonesmarsh, think twice.  Clever

Leif

Absolutely right. Bonesmarsh clearly does more harm then good to this forum. I came here some years ago BECAUSE of pros like Blast, Sabutin or Mr. Sauer. If some idiots manage to chase all of them away, this forum will loose even more of its interest.
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« Reply #61 on: Feb 15, 2018, 05:53AM »

What I find interesting is that he routinely posts negatively about how little professional advice there is here and to always consider the source.  Now, while it is wise to consider the source of the advice we get, it seems counter intuitive to me to then give the pros who are here a hard time.   Don't know
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« Reply #62 on: Feb 15, 2018, 07:00AM »

Absolutely right. Bonesmarsh clearly does more harm then good to this forum. I came here some years ago BECAUSE of pros like Blast, Sabutin or Mr. Sauer. If some idiots manage to chase all of them away, this forum will loose even more of its interest.
What I find interesting is that he routinely posts negatively about how little professional advice there is here and to always consider the source.  Now, while it is wise to consider the source of the advice we get, it seems counter intuitive to me to then give the pros who are here a hard time.   Don't know

And of course he drops his little deuce here and doesn't even comeback on to stand up for himself. Coward.
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« Reply #63 on: Feb 15, 2018, 07:18AM »

If Chris were here, maybe he could shut this thread down for its multiple violations of the TOU.

Bonesmarsh's post brought up one thing that has often troubled me about this place. There are people who it's safe to criticize, and people who we're expected to handle with kid gloves. Well, unless you're the forum heyoka, in which case you get to say anything you want. Remember back when a....certain  Idea! ;-) Hi :cry: Embarrassed! forum regular  drove
                                        another
                                                                                    couple
                                                                                                           of pros away, and no one seemed to bat an eye?
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« Reply #64 on: Feb 15, 2018, 08:50AM »

If Chris were here, maybe he could shut this thread down for its multiple violations of the TOU.

Bonesmarsh's post brought up one thing that has often troubled me about this place. There are people who it's safe to criticize, and people who we're expected to handle with kid gloves. Well, unless you're the forum heyoka, in which case you get to say anything you want. Remember back when a....certain  Idea! ;-) Hi :cry: Embarrassed! forum regular  drove
                                        another
                                                                                    couple
                                                                                                           of pros away, and no one seemed to bat an eye?

Do tell. Who are you talking about?

As an aside, do you remember when Snorsworthy was driven away? Semi messed up, even though I disagreed with everything he ever 'definitively' posted about.

(The turn this thread took is ludicrous, BTW, and not just from Bonesmarch. It's just words. Words carry different weights coming from different people. Words spoken by Gandhi carried a lot of weight. Posts from random people on this forum, especially including myself? Forget about it.)
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« Reply #65 on: Feb 16, 2018, 05:31AM »

If Chris were here, maybe he could shut this thread down for its multiple violations of the TOU.

Bonesmarsh's post brought up one thing that has often troubled me about this place. There are people who it's safe to criticize, and people who we're expected to handle with kid gloves. Well, unless you're the forum heyoka, in which case you get to say anything you want. Remember back when a....certain  Idea! ;-) Hi :cry: Embarrassed! forum regular  drove
                                        another
                                                                                    couple
                                                                                                           of pros away, and no one seemed to bat an eye?

So Eric is your criticism of the criticism directed at those of us who criticized Bonesmarch or at Bonesmarch's criticism of Chris? And either way do you not take into account the person who's being criticized? Is your point that we should treat everyone the same? And please list the MULTIPLE violations displayed here. This entire Forum could be shut down for all of the comments and "bumps" in the Classifieds alone.
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« Reply #66 on: Feb 16, 2018, 06:30AM »

So Eric is your criticism of the criticism directed at those of us who criticized Bonesmarch or at Bonesmarch's criticism of Chris? And either way do you not take into account the person who's being criticized? Is your point that we should treat everyone the same? And please list the MULTIPLE violations displayed here. This entire Forum could be shut down for all of the comments and "bumps" in the Classifieds alone.

Don't know who Eric is.

My criticism is directed at the outright attacks on Bonesmarsh (with an "s," not a "c.") Bonesmarsh gave a perfectly civil response to Chris, which criticized Chris's behavior. Chris pretty much shut down the criticism ("I have never been paid a cent by Wessex. I DO NOT represent them") and that should have been the end of it. But then he implied that he was leaving. That's when things got ugly.

As for the TOU violations, you didn't "criticize" Bonesmarsh. You called him a coward. That violates the TOU. Dan raised a perfectly reasonable critique of his behavior. Cozzagiorgi was a bit more crafty, discussing how Bonesmarsh "does more harm than good" and the discussing "idiots" who "chase [the pros] away," but I've been called on the carpet by Bruce for far more subtle personal attacks on other members. So yes, there were two violations of the TOU. Name-calling shouldn't be tolerated. And feel free to go over my posting history and find all the times when I violated the TOU. I'm sure there are several and you're welcome to point them out, as I did yours.

I do think everyone on the Forum should be treated the same. I think common sense dictates that we should treat pros with some respect, but also that pros should realize that they're on an internet forum where they interact with the great unwashed masses, and they will occasionally be offended by those who question them. As are we all, at times, on this internet forum.

Are you implying that we have a class of "untouchables" who, because of their status as players, shouldn't ever be challenged?

Do tell. Who are you talking about?

As an aside, do you remember when Snorsworthy was driven away? Semi messed up, even though I disagreed with everything he ever 'definitively' posted about.

(The turn this thread took is ludicrous, BTW, and not just from Bonesmarch. It's just words. Words carry different weights coming from different people. Words spoken by Gandhi carried a lot of weight. Posts from random people on this forum, especially including myself? Forget about it.)

You're right-I got on someone else's case earlier for not being specific enough.

There were at least two occasions where DJ had tussles with "luminaries" and took to attacking them--making fun of their names, posting  derisive poems, etc. Bob McChesney specifically stated that he was leaving the Forum because of DJ's abuse. He's never been back.
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« Reply #67 on: Feb 16, 2018, 06:46AM »

Don't know who Eric is.

My criticism is directed at the outright attacks on Bonesmarsh (with an "s," not a "c.") Bonesmarsh gave a perfectly civil response to Chris, which criticized Chris's behavior. Chris pretty much shut down the criticism ("I have never been paid a cent by Wessex. I DO NOT represent them") and that should have been the end of it. But then he implied that he was leaving. That's when things got ugly.

As for the TOU violations, you didn't "criticize" Bonesmarsh. You called him a coward. That violates the TOU. Dan raised a perfectly reasonable critique of his behavior. Cozzagiorgi was a bit more crafty, discussing how Bonesmarsh "does more harm than good" and the discussing "idiots" who "chase [the pros] away," but I've been called on the carpet by Bruce for far more subtle personal attacks on other members. So yes, there were two violations of the TOU. Name-calling shouldn't be tolerated. And feel free to go over my posting history and find all the times when I violated the TOU. I'm sure there are several and you're welcome to point them out, as I did yours.

I do think everyone on the Forum should be treated the same. I think common sense dictates that we should treat pros with some respect, but also that pros should realize that they're on an internet forum where they interact with the great unwashed masses, and they will occasionally be offended by those who question them. As are we all, at times, on this internet forum.

Are you implying that we have a class of "untouchables" who, because of their status as players, shouldn't ever be challenged?


 Good!

Fair enough. About 3-4 years ago, when I spent about 10 minutes on the Politics sub-board (that's all I lasted), Bruce threatened me with a 3-month suspension for merely referring to a specific someone as "pathetic". MY HOW TIMES HAVE CHANGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :-0  :D  ;-)  Amazed  Don't know  Confused  Eeek!

That's fine. I get it. As someone once pointed out about me, I can both take it and dish it out. But what I finding maddening is the message of inconsistency being sent. That just breeds contempt, confusion and frustration. Don't get me wrong. I don't expect perfection and I can respect differences between moderated boards. But an abandonment is unacceptable. People need governed.

OBTW: I prefer the use of the term "jagoff".

...Geezer
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« Reply #68 on: Feb 16, 2018, 07:00AM »

I don't think anyone benefits from a situation where we're treating some people with kid gloves or perpetuating unequal treatment.  What would be better would be to create and nurture and environment where everyone feels comfortable participating.  Newbies/beginners would feel comfortable asking questions because they won't be talked down to.  Pros would feel comfortable sharing info because they feel their opinions are respected and because the discourse is civil.  People in the middle of the spectrum would feel valued for the significant amount they contribute.  Everyone would treat each other with respect.  These things don't always happen here. 

I'm a professional, though not a terribly famous one  :), and I have to admit I debate participating sometimes. I've learned some cool things and had a few interesting discussions, but more often I'm left shaking my head at what goes on.
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« Reply #69 on: Feb 16, 2018, 07:17AM »

I dont mean to be hard against Bonesmarsh, but I dont understand what he think is advertisement? He has lot of interesting post and I enjoy him. But this advertisement thing I dont understand? We are all trombonist and we talk about instruments, especially when some new shows up on the scene. That cant be problem. I always say the old Conn is best, is that an advertisement? Bye the way Im joking a little when I always tell that. But for me it is true  :D

Dont go anyone, let us have a beer and relax. Good!

Leif
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« Reply #70 on: Feb 16, 2018, 07:21AM »

Don't know who Eric is.

My criticism is directed at the outright attacks on Bonesmarsh (with an "s," not a "c.") Bonesmarsh gave a perfectly civil response to Chris, which criticized Chris's behavior. Chris pretty much shut down the criticism ("I have never been paid a cent by Wessex. I DO NOT represent them") and that should have been the end of it. But then he implied that he was leaving. That's when things got ugly.

As for the TOU violations, you didn't "criticize" Bonesmarsh. You called him a coward. That violates the TOU. Dan raised a perfectly reasonable critique of his behavior. Cozzagiorgi was a bit more crafty, discussing how Bonesmarsh "does more harm than good" and the discussing "idiots" who "chase [the pros] away," but I've been called on the carpet by Bruce for far more subtle personal attacks on other members. So yes, there were two violations of the TOU. Name-calling shouldn't be tolerated. And feel free to go over my posting history and find all the times when I violated the TOU. I'm sure there are several and you're welcome to point them out, as I did yours.

I do think everyone on the Forum should be treated the same. I think common sense dictates that we should treat pros with some respect, but also that pros should realize that they're on an internet forum where they interact with the great unwashed masses, and they will occasionally be offended by those who question them. As are we all, at times, on this internet forum.

Are you implying that we have a class of "untouchables" who, because of their status as players, shouldn't ever be challenged?



Sorry about your name. Responded before I was fully awake. And also thanks for the correction on the bonesmarsh. You are a stickler for details. And just so you know I can take the criticism, just so there's no misunderstanding. Got it?? Ever heard of auto correct?? I intended to type the right thing but the end result turned out differently. Once again I can take it.
I called him a coward because he came in, said what he wanted(not as civil as you think but that's why the world is the way it is-many opinions) and left. I took Chris's statement that he was out of the thread, not necessarily the Forum. Almost like he needed a break. Who knows if he's left for good that's a shame.
Do you even know Chris? Have you ever met Chris in person? When you know someone personally sometimes your opinion of what someone else says about that person can be a bit more intense than, say, a total stranger. If I knew you and someone questioned you in the way the "Spy" did I'd probably step up a little more for you too. But I don't. I know nothing about you, your work, or anything else but I'm trying to treat you respectfully. In fact I don't even know your name but I see that you teach English. That explains the first part of your post which is not a bad thing.
And no I'm not implying that we have untouchables on The Forum but some of the "wisdom" that's spread around here on instruments, mouthpieces, and performance comes from the unknowledgeable and the inexperienced. Maybe there should be a better vetting process to join The Forum. At least a name and a real occupation would be great instead of someone coming on here who lists nothing in their profile and as soon as there's criticism we hear "you're running good pros out of here." How do we know-because someone says so? Anyone can have a career now with Youtube and FB. Would be nice to know the pretenders from the Players!
.
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« Reply #71 on: Feb 16, 2018, 07:35AM »

Good!

Fair enough. About 3-4 years ago, when I spent about 10 minutes on the Politics sub-board (that's all I lasted), Bruce threatened me with a 3-month suspension for merely referring to a specific someone as "pathetic". MY HOW TIMES HAVE CHANGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :-0  :D  ;-)  Amazed  Don't know  Confused  Eeek!


Times haven't changed, especially on that sub board.  Certain members are allowed to insult large groups of people at will.  Others, who push back, are censured. 
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« Reply #72 on: Feb 16, 2018, 07:43AM »

Times haven't changed, especially on that sub board.  Certain members are allowed to insult large groups of people at will.  Others, who push back, are censured. 

Isn't it always the push-back that gets flagged! Same as in the NFL! Someone can land a hay-maker and the refs might not even see it, but fight back and YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS FLAGGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay. So we all know that. Human nature, or limitations I guess. But the craftiest ones among us understand this very, very well and learn how to "fight back" without incurring the penalty. I kinda dig those cats.

It is my understanding that an insult to a large group can be acceptable b/c no one in specific is being singled out. And especially if this  Evil sign is used. So, I'm guessing that - hypothetically speaking - [see what I did there  Clever ] calling everyone on this Forum a jagoff  (  Evil ) is not nearly as bad as referring to me specifically as one. I don't know that I agree with it, but it seems to be an unwritten "rule", more-or-less.

NO ONE, other than the MODS can "drive" anyone off this Forum. You could heckle the living C.R.A.P. out of me and maybe get away with it, but it is ME who has the decision whether to stay or leave. It is the same as a doctor can not "give" any of us days, weeks, months or years to live, unless he outright murders us. That option is from much higher up. I know. It's a sentiment we all use. But it is not accurate.   

But really, guys. There are so many other truly GREAT thoughts expressed on some above posts that I hope they get conversed with civility, honesty and intelligence.

...Geezer
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2018, 04:58AM by Geezerhorn » Logged

This is a pretty darn good discussion Forum (as they go). But as far as actual playing advice is concerned, don't let it take the place of an instructor you can relate to one-on-one.
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« Reply #73 on: Feb 16, 2018, 09:17AM »

Good!

Fair enough. About 3-4 years ago, when I spent about 10 minutes on the Politics sub-board (that's all I lasted), Bruce threatened me with a 3-month suspension for merely referring to a specific someone as "pathetic". MY HOW TIMES HAVE CHANGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :-0  :D  ;-)  Amazed  Don't know  Confused  Eeek!

That's fine. I get it. As someone once pointed out about me, I can both take it and dish it out. But what I finding maddening is the message of inconsistency being sent. That just breeds contempt, confusion and frustration. Don't get me wrong. I don't expect perfection and I can respect differences between moderated boards. But an abandonment is unacceptable. People need governed.

OBTW: I prefer the use of the term "jagoff".


Isn't it always the push-back that gets flagged! Same as in the NFL! Someone can land a hay-maker and the refs might not even see it, but fight back and YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS FLAGGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay. So we all know that. Human nature, or limitations I guess. But the craftiest ones among us understand this very, very well and learn how to "fight back" without incurring the penalty. I kinda dig those cats. Emphasis added.

...Geezer

Maybe there should be a better vetting process to join The Forum. At least a name and a real occupation would be great instead of someone coming on here who lists nothing in their profile and as soon as there's criticism we hear "you're running good pros out of here." How do we know-because someone says so? Anyone can have a career now with Youtube and FB. Would be nice to know the pretenders from the Players!
.

There's another thread asking if child board subjects, not related to the trombone, should be on the forum. This little blowup only serves to reinforce an opinion that they should go, and yes, there should be a more discriminating process for membership. Yes, we have a wide variety of people here claiming to have litter businesses, talking crap about how military bands work, etc. This is an online conversation forum. Don't make it out to be anything more than that.
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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #74 on: Feb 16, 2018, 09:55AM »

There's another thread asking if child board subjects, not related to the trombone, should be on the forum. This little blowup only serves to reinforce an opinion that they should go, and yes, there should be a more discriminating process for membership. Yes, we have a wide variety of people here claiming to have litter businesses, talking crap about how military bands work, etc. This is an online conversation forum. Don't make it out to be anything more than that.

What is that supposed to mean?

And what are you talking about "more discriminating" about membership? Your profile is 100% blank. I'd think it'd be better if anyone could join, and people who derail everything maliciously might get banned or temporarily booted.

This forum is turning pretty dark, lately....

I know I have strong opinions about trombone pedagogy, but threads like this are just ugly.
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Edwards Tenor
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« Reply #75 on: Feb 16, 2018, 11:21AM »

... and who is claiming to have litter businesses?
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« Reply #76 on: Feb 16, 2018, 12:01PM »

What is that supposed to mean?

And what are you talking about "more discriminating" about membership? Your profile is 100% blank. I'd think it'd be better if anyone could join, and people who derail everything maliciously might get banned or temporarily booted.

This forum is turning pretty dark, lately....

I know I have strong opinions about trombone pedagogy, but threads like this are just ugly.

In all fairness I was the one who brought up a better vetting system for membership. All I meant was making certain profile requirements mandatory. All should be allowed to join but not anonymously. It won't necessarily lead to 100% good behavior but it might make some of the more disagreed upon threads easier to discuss.
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« Reply #77 on: Feb 16, 2018, 12:29PM »

In all fairness I was the one who brought up a better vetting system for membership. All I meant was making certain profile requirements mandatory. All should be allowed to join but not anonymously. It won't necessarily lead to 100% good behavior but it might make some of the more disagreed upon threads easier to discuss.

Some people who sign up "anonymously" aren't trying to avoid being ID'd in the trombone world, it's the outside other-than-music-professional world we're wary of. I just don't want to cross paths between my personal and professional lives. People here who have traded horns with me know my name, and some here have even been to my house. I work with some nosy people, and I don't really want them following me around. If this forum made me use a name, I'd make one up, so I don't think that's something you can enforce. Plus, knowing my name isn't going to help anyone in any way. While I've taken some controversial stances here, I'm pretty predictable about the topics that I'm opinionated about (pushing kids to play big horns and Chinese mfg business practices). I think I've contributed usefully here from time to time.

Honestly, I wish we could get back to trombones here, and leave this self-conscious jive for the off-topic boards that are easy to ignore. Being a bit of a gear junkie, I'd hate to have to ignore a hardware-related board.
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« Reply #78 on: Feb 16, 2018, 01:00PM »

Self conscious jive. Good one. As long as you include yourself I’m in.
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« Reply #79 on: Feb 16, 2018, 01:25PM »

Can one of the mods please prune this thread and move the debate posts to the appropriate section? While the value of the discussion can be debated, the fact that it its not appropriate to the instrument board should be obvious to all.
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« Reply #80 on: Feb 16, 2018, 01:27PM »

Self conscious jive. Good one. As long as you include yourself I’m in.
Sure. By participating, I'm part of it. But this is all I have to say. Just want to get back to why we're here.
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« Reply #81 on: Feb 16, 2018, 01:32PM »

---snip---
I don't think anyone benefits from a situation where we're treating some people with kid gloves or perpetuating unequal treatment.  What would be better would be to create and nurture and environment where everyone feels comfortable participating.  Newbies/beginners would feel comfortable asking questions because they won't be talked down to.  Pros would feel comfortable sharing info because they feel their opinions are respected and because the discourse is civil.  People in the middle of the spectrum would feel valued for the significant amount they contribute.  Everyone would treat each other with respect.  These things don't always happen here.

I like this comment. Why not start with this right now? We all would win...
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« Reply #82 on: Feb 17, 2018, 01:26PM »

I will still be moderating if not posting. To that end I am closing this thread

Chris Stearn
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Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
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