Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

949756 Posts in 62834 Topics- by 15168 Members - Latest Member: zachjacobs
Jump to:  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Conn 4h  (Read 4424 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
KevinKapinos

*
Offline Offline

Location: Illinois
Joined: May 12, 2011
Posts: 16

View Profile
« on: May 12, 2011, 05:06PM »

Hi everyone--I'm new to this forum, but I thought that it would be a good place to ask a question. I'm looking for a good jazz horn because I'm going to be taking lessons with Tom Garling this summer. I saw that multiple websites sell the Conn 4h for less than $800. I did some searching on this forum and the rest of the internet about this horn, but I still have some questions. Do a lot of professionals-especially well known ones-use this horn? Do any of you use a Conn as your main jazz horn? How well do the different registers speak? My range extends from pedal tones to a high Eb (the one that's the top space on treble cleff), so you can use that for reference. Also, I like using big mouthpieces; I'll be using a 5g (obviously small shank) on this horn; do you guys think that this is a good idea? Or would it be better to use that mouthpiece on a Conn 6H because it's a bigger horn?
Thanks,
Kevin Kapinos
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 42581
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2011, 06:00PM »

The 4H plays pretty big on its own; even though it is about the size of a King 2B.

I can't answer your question about who is currently playing one, although I think Ben Griffin was using one when I saw him playing with the Coast Guard Band Dixieland Ensemble (Today Show).

Regardless, I bet you could show up with a large bore symphonic horn or even a bass trombone and Garling will be able to teach you what you need to know.  There is no "magic" in a small bore to make Jazz; it's just a little easier to sit on top of a section for a 4 hour gig with one (provided you aren't playing a very big mouthpiece).
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
KevinKapinos

*
Offline Offline

Location: Illinois
Joined: May 12, 2011
Posts: 16

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2011, 06:17PM »

I've actually already had a lesson with him using my Bach 42, and I learned a lot. I guess that lessons with him aren't why I want a horn; it's just a testament to how interested I am in jazz. I'll be using the jazz horn for jazz band and combo at my school. I'll probably end up getting it once the school year ends, so I'll have all summer (when I'll have lessons with Mr. Garling) to get used to the horn and refine my sound on it. My problem with my Bach 42 and jazz is not only that the tone is a little to dark but also that it just doesn't speak the way I want it to speak, if you know what I mean. My high range is good for symphonic and orchestral stuff, but it's not the sound that I want for jazz. Anyway, thanks for your reply.
Logged
Dantheman

*
Offline Offline

Location: JHB South Africa
Joined: Dec 3, 2006
Posts: 953

View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2011, 11:40PM »

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,56233.0.html
Logged
sabutin

*
Offline Offline

Location: NYC
Joined: Sep 26, 2005
Posts: 4515
"A professional freelance NYC lower brass player."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2011, 06:26AM »

Hi everyone--I'm new to this forum, but I thought that it would be a good place to ask a question. I'm looking for a good jazz horn because I'm going to be taking lessons with Tom Garling this summer. I saw that multiple websites sell the Conn 4h for less than $800. I did some searching on this forum and the rest of the internet about this horn, but I still have some questions. Do a lot of professionals-especially well known ones-use this horn? Do any of you use a Conn as your main jazz horn? How well do the different registers speak? My range extends from pedal tones to a high Eb (the one that's the top space on treble cleff), so you can use that for reference. Also, I like using big mouthpieces; I'll be using a 5g (obviously small shank) on this horn; do you guys think that this is a good idea? Or would it be better to use that mouthpiece on a Conn 6H because it's a bigger horn?
Thanks,
Kevin Kapinos

Actually Kevin, a 5G is a bad match for a horn that size. I personally wouldn't use a m'pce that large on anything smaller than a .508 bore, and even then it might be a little ...overbearing...on a horn like that. It might work on a good 6H because they play much bigger than their bore might suggest, but otherwise? .508 or larger bores would favor a 5G.

When you mismatch m'pce sizes and bore sizes...even though I know that a number of people do so, some to fairly good effect...you invariably give up some of the most desirable characteristics of both the m'pce and the horn. A too small m'pce with a larger horn will limit the size and depth of sound of its low register and also limit the kind of volume that can be played on it w/good timbral results, and a too lage m'pce on a smaller horn will muddy up the sound, mess with the pitch and limit the brilliance in the middle and higher registers that are the mark of a great smallbore instrument.

Why are you thinking of using the 5G on a 4H? Because you don't want the hassle of switching? I can relate, although I myself have learned how to do so through the entire range of lower brass m'pces from tuba right up through 12Cs and even smaller if necessary. The real switching problem lies in the rim size. Contact Doug Elliott here on TTF. He makes a line of m'pces that have interchangeable rims, cups and backbores that can fill almost anyone's needs as far as a consistent rim plus the right size of m'pce on different sized horns, and he really knows what he is doing. Worth the $$$ if you're serious about playing. Bet on it.

Later...

S.
Logged

Visit <http://samburtis.com/>. Lots of information on that site in the form of articles plus a link to my method book "Time, Balance & Connections-A Universal Theory Of Brass Relativity" which includes several chapters of the book.
tsmart

*
Offline Offline

Location: Lenoir, NC
Joined: Apr 9, 2009
Posts: 3628
"M R ducks. M R not ducks. O S A R !"


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2011, 07:07AM »

Before ya buy check with DJ Kennedy. Might save ya a few bucks!

Also,
Noah has a 4H for sale on his "sale page")....

http://brassark.com/sale/

"Elkhart Conn 4H Trombone
I was shocked when I played this horn. It is so even all over the horn. It's a beautiful sound and is super easy to play... almost plays itself... emphasis on "almost" but seriously, it's a fine trombone. This one was made in the 1950s. Conn was making a good quality instrument during this period. The 4H has similar specs to a King 2B but has a warmer sound than a King. I find 4Hs to be more subtle and velvety where a king 2B is bright and clear with some sparkle. The 4H is a workhorse. The horn has a small dent in the hand slide crook as well as a few small ones around. It plays great as is, so I'll leave it up to the buyer. $550 as is, $600 repaired."


T.
Logged

the fellowship  of  the slide

Μολὼν λάβε
sly fox
love old trombones' engravings

*
Offline Offline

Location: here, there, anywhere but mostly Topeka KS
Joined: Oct 25, 2008
Posts: 15292
"trombone enthusiast, photos of trombones - gallery"


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2011, 07:08AM »

Welcome to the forum.

I don't know where you are looking at for the Conn 4 H.  I have a silver plated one.  I suggest that before you purchase one, you contact forum member DJ.  send him a personal message or email.  Remember he does not do pictures.  Tell him what you are looking for and your price range and see what he has.  I see you are from Illinois, I grew up downstate near the U of I.  If you are close to Chester Il, I would see if you could visit DJ at his house. It could be well worth the trip.  He literally has a house full of vintage trombones.

He has helped many on this forum with purchase of vintage trombones.  I have bought two from him an Abeline 6H and a late '20's King Silvertone Model 1455.

Pictures of my trombones are in the gallery, here is one of my 1940ish Conn 4H.  

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=1414

good luck

Logged

Allen
First and foremost I'm a proud Dad & lucky Husband.  They say great minds can differ (not that I claim to have a great mind).  Remember that $ and my opinion buys coffee at the diner.
zemry

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Mansfield, Louisiana
Joined: May 31, 2001
Posts: 5585
"Steve Turre and myself in the French Quarter"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2011, 07:17AM »

My favorite 4h is exactly like the one above. It is a 1939 model, I think. I purchased mine for 60 dollars from goodwill.org!  It was definitely a steal. It is a beautiful horn with a beautiful warm sound. I like it as much as my silver bell 3B. It sounds as warm as my 3G. It definitely has a darker sound than my Conn Constellation. You should be able to find a decent one in the 300-500 price range.
Logged

There won't come a time when you won't have to practice anymore.........J.J. Johnson

Richard Zemry Johnson, Jr.
sly fox
love old trombones' engravings

*
Offline Offline

Location: here, there, anywhere but mostly Topeka KS
Joined: Oct 25, 2008
Posts: 15292
"trombone enthusiast, photos of trombones - gallery"


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 07:27AM »

Just want to make clear, I am not saying that Noah wouldn't treat you right if you choose to deal with him.  I have dealt with DJ but not Noah, so I have not had any experiences to relate.  However I have nothing bad to say about him.

good luck and have fun.

should be a great small bore trombone for you.

Allen
Logged

Allen
First and foremost I'm a proud Dad & lucky Husband.  They say great minds can differ (not that I claim to have a great mind).  Remember that $ and my opinion buys coffee at the diner.
fluor

*
Offline Offline

Location: norway
Joined: Oct 3, 2005
Posts: 1008

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 09:00AM »

Not much to add here, but...

Noah is very pleasant to work with!

Read Sabutin's post again. Very good!! I can add that too deep mouthpiece on s small horn like that can hive intonation trouble...

Also, jazz is in the person and music, not the horn. But as said, big band should be played with small ones
Logged
JimR

*
Offline Offline

Location: Denver CO
Joined: Apr 1, 2007
Posts: 459

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2011, 11:00AM »

In follow-up to what fluor said about a deep cup mouthpiece.

I DO use a Doug Elliot setup and play a rather large rim on my tenor horns; however, I match the cup and stem size to the horn.  I just got a 2B from DJ and matched it to a C cup and 2 stem for my mouthpiece which I received from Doug.  The C cup is night and day different then my previous small tenor E cup (similar to a 6.5AL) that I use for my 3B (508 bore).

The cup diameter made a big difference for me on the smaller 2B; with the C cup and matching stem I am able to capture the small horn character of the 2B even with the larger rim (IMHO).

Good luck. I would contact Doug.
Jim
Logged
KevinKapinos

*
Offline Offline

Location: Illinois
Joined: May 12, 2011
Posts: 16

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2011, 03:31PM »

Thanks for all of the replies! I like being able to ask a question here and getting replies the next day instead of having to wait until Monday for my next trombone lesson. Also, I get a lot of more replies here from different people instead of just hearing a response from my trombone teacher. I'll definitely start using this forum as a resource.

Dantheman: I looked at that link before I created this thread. I just still had some other questions. Don't worry; I've been on forums before and I know how annoying it can be when people don't use the search function.

Sabutin: Yes, I was planning on using a 5g because I don't want to have to switch back and forth between mouthpieces. I also am worried about using a smaller mouthpiece because when I hear a lot of people on 7c's they have a tone that spreads. I guess that I'll go down to a music store and try out a bunch of mouthpieces and see what works for me.

On the subject of custom mouthpieces, I know that my trombone teacher once had a teacher at a music camp who used a 5g rim with a 7c cup. I'll look into that.

Thanks for all of the replies!

-Kevin Kapinos
Logged
Richard Tadaki

*
Offline Offline

Location: Hawaii
Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Posts: 1118

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2011, 05:19PM »

Hi Kevin,

Like JimR, I, too, use a Doug Elliott setup.  For my Williams 6 (.500 bore), I use a MT102 rim with a C cup and 2 shank.  It works for me but, then, I have rather thick lips.  Different strokes for different folks.   :)

Aloha,
Richard
Logged
Swass
trompwn

*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: Feb 17, 2011
Posts: 32

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2011, 06:15PM »

Switching between mouthpieces just takes a little getting used to. It might be a little annoying at first, but you're gonna have a lot of trouble finding the jazz sound you want with a 5G mouthpiece.

I go from a 4G for orchestra to an 11m for jazz (and even tuba and trumpet mouthpieces at the extremes) and it hasn't hurt my tone on either mouthpiece. You have to take some time to get used to it, but it's worth it in the end.
Logged

Bach 42BO w/ Shires TB47 slide - Wick 5AL
1974 King 3B - G&W Chubasco
1929 Conn 4H - Bach 12C
Richard Tadaki

*
Offline Offline

Location: Hawaii
Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Posts: 1118

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2011, 06:50PM »

Switching between mouthpieces just takes a little getting used to. It might be a little annoying at first, but you're gonna have a lot of trouble finding the jazz sound you want with a 5G mouthpiece.


If the OP went with a Doug Elliott system, it would be simple to stay with the same sized rim and change the cups.  That the whole point of using Doug's mouthpieces.  As mentioned previously, I use a C cup on my .500 bore horn but go to a deeper cup when I play my medium bore horns, while keeping the same rim.
Logged
jnoxon

*
Offline Offline

Location: California
Joined: Aug 25, 2004
Posts: 848

View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2011, 04:49PM »

Sam  Well put!
Logged

Advice is what you ask for when you already know the answer, and don't like it!
slidehamilton
*
Offline Offline

Location: Deltona Florida
Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 214

View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2011, 05:23PM »

Another possible solution (And I think potentially a very good one) to your mouthpiece issue would be to try a 5GS on your Conn 4H. This way you are getting the same rim but with a smaller more commercial style cup. We at Warburton make a really nice 5GS with a small shank. The cup depth is around an 11C or so (if it's deeper it's not by much) and a 1/4" throat (the sound shouldn't spread too much)
  This way you can play a 5G on your symphonic setup and a 5GS on your Jazz horn. This keeps you with the same rim and I think the 5GS would probably balance nicely with you Conn 4H.
  Hope this helps.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: