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[LongmodelF]

Looking through the classifieds for the first time I was suprised by the high percentage of entries without attached photographs. This puzzled me as I would certainly not buy an instrument without a least seeing a photo first. anyone out there who would?? and why??

[Richard Tadaki]

I think it depends on the person(s) you're buying the horns from.  I've bought three trombones from a couple of people on the forum and have been very happy with all three of them.  Both of these guys have excellent reputations for the horns they have available and I think their reps are well deserved.

Aloha,
Richard

[sly fox]

that is a question I ask whenever I see that someone has found an instrument on craiglist.

I mean, ebay is bad enough but you usually get pictures, on craiglist unless you can travel to where it is, all you have is someone's description

or am I missing something?

by the way, I have bought two trombones w/o seeing them or seeing pictures, both from DJ Kennedy and I haven't been disappointed.

[BGuttman]

To a large extent it is dependent on the price and whether I can afford to buy a "pig in a poke".

I bought one that turned out to be a nice G-bass (I was hoping it was).

I bought another that turned out to be a Conn Director in a fancier Conn "Wedgie" Case.  I sold off the trombone, still have the case in case I need a decent case.

Would I buy a "critical" horn that way?  NO!

[Driving Park]

I would from DJ.

[Filthy McNasty]

I did and it was the worst purchase I've ever made. As a matter of fact, from now on I will never buy or trade a horn without playing it for at least a full week.

[Jeff Smith]

As Sam Burtis often likes to quote:

Yer pays yer money, yer takes yer chances.

I've done it 5 or 6 times, and been both delighted and disappointed.

[Burgerbob]

My four horns I've bought- three used trombones, and one brand new euph- have all been great. All sight unseen. As well as all the mouthpieces I use now.

[LizM]

I know that I have had a lot of problems adding photos to TTF classifieds so I email pictures to interested parties. 

[trombone addict]

If I am in the market for a used horn, I will go to TRUSTED sellers who are honest, and will probably exchange a few PM's so that I can get a better idea of what I am getting out of the deal.

Without seeing it? I would want at least pictures. 

[prototypedenNIS]

no, pics or you don't have it.

[Dan Hine]

I've always had a hard time figuring out why a lot of ads/posts don't have pictures.  I know grandparents who know how to take pictures (on their phone!) and post them to the internet.  It's not that hard.   

[chipolah]

I would never buy a trombone online without seeing some photos. I think it's more problematic buying a trbn online because of slide issues. I've never bought a horn from DJ, but I'm sure from what I have heard, I would trust his word. I bought a vintage Holton 65 on Ebay last year. The photos looked OK. When I got the horn, the slide was completely unrepairable. It was sprung, dented and rippled. (the photos looked good) By the way, I put a Holton tr-100 slide (.500 bore) on the 65 bell (.458) and the result was miraculous. Great response in all registers and VERY in tune.

[trombone addict]

They should at least say e-mail for pictures

Sometimes its hard to put stuff up here

[octavposaune]

Pictures sometimes tell a thousand works, sometimes they lie.

I would buy an instrument from a seller I knew to be trustworthy, and those are few and far between.  I can think of a half dozen guys here on the forum that I would trust their word and pretty much no one else.  The TTF classifieds have treated me well, but I have not bought any horns off of it.  I did buy/trade a horn from DJ a while back, and it was in fact as he described.  DJ is my buddy and I know he likes helping people and not just selling snake oil.  He is legit and honest in his descriptions.  This forum is full of testimonials for him.  He is one of the guys I trust.

Now back to the point.  Caveat Emptor   Buying a horn from someone without pictures that is unknown and selling for too low of a price??  Probably too good to be true. 

Benn

[trombone addict]

Like Benn said,

I would buy an instrument from a seller I knew to be trustworthy, and those are few and far between.

If I was buying from a trustworthy seller and he gives accurate descriptions of the product (like DJ does) then I would be more inclined to buy it.

[dj kennedy]

<a href="" target="_blank"></a>

====================================
IFF     REALLY  BIG  IF   A HUGE  IF    
  i could  do pics 
i could  take pics of a total crappola  trombone
     AND  make it look  GREAT
i have  gotten  ROTTEN  JUNKQUE  WITH PICS  !!!!!!
==============
 i  have sold   numerous  trombone w/o   pics
you  cant tell  -if slide has  a pro  setup
how  a bell responds
what the vibration is like
if a  horn is a good match  for personality
what  it will need 
clean  or dirty 
-------------------
 even w  pics  sometimes it  is risky 
------------
 buying from a  ttf  member  in full standing is
much safer 
 because  of the ttf   code of honor 
w  certain exceptions  --namely   koda  goldberg
and  those   ttf  members  who  would  abuse  other members
w  a bad  bone 
 face  severe  criticism  from the  body
-------
in fact   many parents  who have researched  sources 
 often come to the forum seeking advice
--------
  buying from ebay w pics  --right now  july  18
no   trombone//paypal advantage  member ???///
NO REFUND  YET  1136
dis[pute  /phone calls  //still no  $$$$$$$$$
----------
  while  pics    are  a great help
i know  what  a 2b   3b   bach  36  looks like   
  what i  wanna know   is  much  more 
----------
 and  this  much  more   is what  you  will get  from
 a ttf  member 
--------------------
GET THE PICTURE  !!!!
--------------
and thanks  everyone for  placing   much   value 
on  reputation 
--------
of  course  i have dropped the  ball on deals
many many times 
often  i loose track  of the  correspondence
and someone looking  gets 
forgotten
--------
    communication   is the  biggest thing 

------------

[Dan Martin]

Yes Yes Yes.  Buy every Martin Committee trumpet that comes up for sale under 1001 dollars if it was made in Elkhart.  Thats a fact.  Who needs a picture of a great deal?  Just one example.  If you need it to be in a certain condition, visually, then by all means a picture is worth about as much a the paper its printed on.  The real test is in the blow. 

I think its the buyer responsibility to ask all the questions that have not been addressed if its important to you.  But if you buy a horn with limited information then its your fault.  If the seller has intentionally left out critical details that would tip the scales in their favor then its a bad seller needing to be avoided.  People make mistakes.  I have in posting ads. A full proof return policy takes care of that.   alway am willing to take back any horn I have sold, or am selling for any reason within a reasonable amount of time.  I think this takes care of any mistakes.  Just because you don't like the blow is not a great reason though.  It should be a no brainer.  If you buy any trombone without playing it first you may not like it.  That is not the fault of the seller.  It just seems like part of the equation to me.  Like buying a hat without trying it on first. Not my fault you look funny in it.  Now If you want to buy a horn on the condition that you would like to try it out first then by all means ask for that option. I'll do it.  But you can't expect the seller to eat the shipping and handling costs.  Insurance is expensive.  Its way better to buy a trombone from someone that cares about their reputation.  Most forum members here care about their reputations.  Some don't.  For example. If you don't know the value of an instrument that you want to sell, say a Williams horn. Most people here know that they command at the very least several hundred dollars. Especially the guys that collect them and already own them.  Greed can overcome some people and cause them to be dishonest and make them do anything to buy a horn.  Including omission of the truth.  The same goes for sellers.  They tend to get greedy and leave out something.  Its usually that something that is the most important.  Look at an ad and ask yourself what they left out, then ask about that specifically.  If you don't you will get burned almost every time.  On occasion I will pick a trombone that had pictures from a cell phone that are blurry, and there is no way you can tell the true condition.  Usually someones ex roommate or a parent that has no real desire for anything other than getting rid of a space taker. The hundred dollar 6h is almost always a great deal.

In short.  It always the buyers responsibility to ask the right questions.   

[vegasbound]

I did from DJ.....why because he has a great rep, and a great Rep takes a lot of hard work to build and only one bad deal to destroy!!!

And it's a great horn and would do so again...and that's why I recomend DJ!

[Richard Tadaki]

Yes, yes, yes.  I bought a great blowing 16M from dj and it was everything he promised.  I also bought a couple of Earl Williams bones from Noah Gladstone (Slipmo) and they were everything he promised.  They were a couple of great horns and I hardly play the others anymore.  For sure, these are a couple of guys who are true to their word.   

Aloha,
Richard

[ddickerson]

I've purchased (or traded) two trombones from DJ and both times he came thru impeccably. You can't go wrong with him!

[Lawrie]

I'll add my recommendations for dj too.  Just took delivery, from halfway around the world and sight unseen, in 6 days, of a 1920's King I needed for a period correct thingy I'm up to. 

Initially it didn't need to be a player but then things changed a little and I needed one that played as well as looked "like new" but still correct for the period.  He came through with an ideal horn that sounds really good too.  The slide, as you might expect, is not perfect, but a little work and it will be perfectly playable - it almost is now.

Thanks dj.

[KINGJIGG1943]

I think you will ultimately be disappointed if you don't the see the horn 1st. With today's tech., there is no excuse....



But I have bought without seeing it.... it was Carl Fontana's old horn.   

[dj kennedy]

when lawrie asked  --this meant i had  to dig up possibles  --AND TRY  THEM
----
those  oldie  non plated inners  are  high maintaince [sp]
after  much polishing  the  old lube of choice--oil
  i think   --if  you  used  one  lots  and got it  broke in  after  a layer  of    slime  built up  it  might  slide  great
  ----------
trying these  dust covered relics  was an odious task --until i hit upon the king    which  not only looked 

 

I'll add my recommendations for dj too.  Just took delivery, from halfway around the world and sight unseen, in 6 days, of a 1920's King I needed for a period correct thingy I'm up to. 

Initially it didn't need to be a player but then things changed a little and I needed one that played as well as looked "like new" but still correct for the period.  He came through with an ideal horn that sounds really good too.  The slide, as you might expect, is not perfect, but a little work and it will be perfectly playable - it almost is now.

Thanks dj.

[dj kennedy]

[[[[[[[  looked]]]]]]]]]    [sorry--glitstzh]
looked mint  --inside case  mint  oliveish   wide wale corduroy --a real time capsule /only  flaw------- outside of case  light coat of black paint --faint gold US  peeking   thru
-----------------for  an oldie --this one is a goodie 
a conn  w 2  tuning slides  ///super early  rudy muck//besson prototype
 the besson  may  have been too early//york pro //
------------
  well before lawrie  was sworn to  secrecy he  mentioned  some  sort of  adventure escapade  possibly  with  actors   perhaps   documented  etc
  im thinking  it  may  be  something about life in the opal fields 
   a background story  connecting the parents  of 
CROCODILE   DUNDEE     AND JAMES BOND  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  sort of a retro  mystery    w  a tinge of  orientilism 
ala   fu  manchu 
 with  abos     billibongs     --women  ---ok 
    a romance   when  a  cross country  tour  of silver ghost  rolls royces    gets  bogged  down    in torrential  rains 
 and  our  character  who  plays  trombone  in a ragtime orchestra 
falls in love  with a yellow dress 
----------
 there is  much  more of  course   to the story
  but this is all i have scripted  thusfar
--------
kids  --ok  you asked for it  a tale of twins  --
---------
lots of tea       and  whiskey 

[Lawrie]

While I can't confirm or deny any of dj's story, I can say that I do happen to be in an opal field as I write - thank goodness for 3G internet access - A place called Lightning Ridge in Northern country NSW...  To be more specific, I'm in a mining camp on "Lunatic Hill" in an area called the "Three Mile".

Think what you will...   

[dj kennedy]

lightningridge  coober pedy  -- famous  for  black opals  !!!!!!!
love opals   opal in matrix --wow  !!!!!!!!

While I can't confirm or deny any of dj's story, I can say that I do happen to be in an opal field as I write - thank goodness for 3G internet access - A place called Lightning Ridge in Northern country NSW...  To be more specific, I'm in a mining camp on "Lunatic Hill" in an area called the "Three Mile".

Think what you will...   

[greg waits]

To answer the question, Yes. And I still play it...my '56 6H.

It was in a pawn shop in Butte, Montana. A guy I'd met online told me he saw the horn when he dropped in to browse.

The Pawn shop was just about to list it on Ebay. When asked how much they'd sell it to me and forget Ebay, he said $400. Done. I got the horn. He even covered postage. Such a deal!

Technically I saw it (in photos) but I never had a chance to play it until it showed up on my doorstep.

After spending $35 to clean up the slide (Thanks Eric Edwards!), the horn has been my main one ever since. Oh, I paid another $200 to have the slide lightened. GREAT investment!!

[lazebone]

I must admit I learned a great deal from a horn deal two years ago.  I found a particular instrument in The Classifieds, contacted the seller a couple of times, then made the great mistake of hesitating.  I told him I would take the instrument thinking I had a deal; an hour later I learned it was sold to someone on Craiglist.  That made me very angry because I felt a deal was a deal.  BUT, everything worked out as I found a Martin Imperial on ebay that came with a 7 day guarantee; it arrived and within ten minutes it called my house its new home.

[JimArcher]

I bought an Olds Super, ca 1938 off the Seattle Craigslist a few years ago, no pics.  The asking price was $150; I e-mailed the seller as soon as I saw the ad, turned out to be the first reply.  (It was a 2 owner horn, the second got it in the 50s, played it in hs, then it sat in his closet all the intervening years.  Great shape, no dents, a v. good player, no slide or bell locks, original coffin case with a water damaged end (the stored bottom), an easy repair.)

[ottisthetrombonist]

I'm not sure if I would buy one without seeing it. I am a BIG fan of used, but because I am a kid, if the trombone is  to big for me I can't play it. Therefore, I have to see it, but also hold it.

[dj kennedy]

a  good description over the phone is  like a live  radio broadcast of  a baseball  game  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Euphanasia]

It's a gamble. Sometimes you win big. The thing is to lose small.  Don't risk a lot of money if there's not a lot of good photo documentation (unless you know the seller.) I can't count the number of times that a bad picture or no picture at all has left me with something next to worthless or worth less than I paid. The last one was a silver 44H. Nice horn, but no slide handle!! How am I supposed to play it with no slide handle? They were telling the truth when they said "slide works fast and smooth." It was self-aligning!!

The best ever was a wall hanger covered with fabric flowers. You couldn't even see the horn under the junk. Bought it cheap because curiosity got the best of me, cut away the flowers, and found a very tarnished copper bell. It was a 12H from the '50s!

[marcoflex]

you always take a chance when you purchase unseen, however, I believe that most people on this forum are very reliable.

[JSBassTrb]

I bought my Yamaha 830 without ever playing or seeing one in person, and it was definitely worth it!

[dj kennedy]

a 

[Bob Kolada]

I don't care who is selling it, unless it's a an absolute steal no matter the shape a picture is the bare minimum. A video is a pretty solid idea as well. Even my lousy computer has a good enough video camera to prove a horn's condition and playability.

Plus, having a picture in an ad helps draw attention to it. I don't know why anyone WOULDN'T have a picture in a for sale ad.

[W/SBTRB]

I would never but a trombone without seeing it or playing it first. If I was a collector I would at least want to see it.Only own two, Reynolds Contempora Bass with a Conn 72H valve and my Getzen 1052R.

[tsmart]

I've bought several, sight unseen - and gotten nice/decent deals.

Last 2 horns I have bought, I had pictures - and weren't great deals.
Horn 1 - I could see the damage, knew it needed some work. But didn't see the red rot in the tubes.
Horn 2 - lacquer was bad, but horn looked ok. Once it arrived, the old lacquer had hid many dents/dings in the pics. And.. it also has some red rot (slide crook, maybe tubes too), and the slide (supposedly was good), needs an alignment pretty badly (maybe new tubes, if the old ones have red rot).

So fact is - you get good deals, and bad deals - no matter if you have pictures or not.
It's a chance ya take. You win some, ya loose some.

BUT.... going to someone with a great reputation (like DJ or Noah), I wouldn't need pictures.
I trust their word/description, and reputation 100%.

T.

[ddickerson]

I will say that the last trombone I got from DJ almost two years ago, sight unseen, is now my major horn that I'm playing. I would never hesitate in doing business with him at all.

[Slipmo]

BUT.... going to someone with a great reputation (like DJ or Noah), I wouldn't need pictures.
I trust their word/description, and reputation 100%.

T.

Thanks for the good word, T! 

[dj kennedy]

thanks  duster  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    and troy too
 i have gotten scammed   even with pics 
and if i could do pics 
  i could  take pics of a total junk    and make it look  good
------
what i dont like  is surprizes     and  sloppy  packing 
sloppy  packing  even from some trombonists 
  i got a  perfect  2b silversonic ---------------wrecked flare  from  end  drop kick
numerous  RATTLERS  -----you can hear the rattler   
mail man  moves box ----RATTLE   RATTLE 
  HA HA  WHATTA  YA GOT DJ   ---BABY  TOYS  ------------HA HA  RATTLE RATTLE
 this means  one or more loose mouthpieces 
---------
  so then  each and every time you get  one shipped to you   
you need to  TELL THE SENDER --HOW TO PACK 
then  some  act  like  -WHAT DO YOU THINK IM  STOOOOPID  ????????
YA  !!!!!!!!!!!!   huge box  6 inches of foam peanuts  around case  /trombone rattle=STOOPID  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------------
  so i  like to carefully wrap  the slide  w tissue    and  stuff inside of case  ---i have to allow  myself  an hour    to pack
-------
CASES   ARE DANGEROUS  !!!!!!!!!!!--ESP BASS BONES  !!!!!!!

I will say that the last trombone I got from DJ almost two years ago, sight unseen, is now my major horn that I'm playing. I would never hesitate in doing business with him at all.

[JimArcher]

My bass 'bone came from WW&BW with a crimpled bell very likely because of my requirement for expedited shipping; they took $100 off the price which covered the repair.
The '28 Olds with the original case that I got this summer came with two loose mouthpieces "wrapped" in cleaning cloths which dinged up the bell. 

So as in the first example, even when shippers know what they're doing $^&(# happens. 

[tsmart]

And if ya pay extra, for UPS or FED-X to package it.... well, it cost extra $$$, and you get ZERO interior packing at all.

I've paid nearly $100 extra, on two occasions (where the seller didn't want to ship), just so they could pay UPS and Fed-X to pack it.... and both times - nothing was packed inside the case. The outside case its self was WELL packed and protected.... but the horn inside, was bare.

And one would think a shipping company would know how to package something (especially with their prices!).

T.

[JohnL]

And one would think a shipping company would know how to package something (especially with their prices!).

They probably just took it to the local UPS or FedEx retail establishment. Some of them are good, some aren't.

[peter1908]

In the past 3 months I have bought perhaps 30 mpcs and maybe 7 trombones -  many of those were multiple purchases - component parts of Shires.
And I would have one piece of advice to share.
Be VERY VERY careful when you buy from an overseas seller.
Why - because even with ebay and paypal buyer protection, the purchaser, if outside the US, is responsible for return shipping.
Which means that the vendor can send you whatever they like...or pack things as poorly as they like, and it is up to you, the purchaser, to pay the return postage in order to get your refund.
Of the 20 or so non mouthpiece packages I have received from perhaps 8 vendors, many purchased through this forum, I would describe only three of those vendors as being 100% 'honest' in what they described prior to sale.
And only two of those three took real care to pack things such that there was a 95%+ chance of things arriving undamaged.
Most have been sparing with the truth about what they were selling.
And almost all have packaged things in a way that I would never dream of doing myself.
So, though I (living in Australia) have no option but to buy instruments without having the chance to play them.....I have endured a lot of pain in several of the purchases.
Either because vendors took more than a month to actually dispatch things.
Or because vendors didn't tell the whole truth about and instrument.
Or because the packaging was woeful.
So - indeed - buyer beware!

[Euphanasia]

And only two of those three took real care to pack things such that there was a 95%+ chance of things arriving undamaged.

I have a question about this.  I understand that Australia is a distant destination for most shippers, but was there actual damage to the items or just the perception that there was a potential for damage?

[Chris Fidler]

Think about this......

The trombone world is a small world.
If you want to maintain a good reputation then do good by your fellow colleagues.
Mess up just once and that mistake will stick with you for a long time!!!

It's not that difficult to pack and ship a horn safely...... Don't ever cut corners!!!

I learnt this working part time in a reputable Brass instrument shop many moons ago.
I was in charge of quality control, packing and shipping!!!
Never had one complaint in 3 years.

[Euphanasia]

It's not that difficult to pack and ship a horn safely...... Don't ever cut corners!!!

Yes, but there are different ideas of what makes something "safe." Some people only ship in cases, some only ship without cases. Some wrap the horn inside the case, some wrap outside of the case. Most reputable shippers stick with what has always worked best for them. I'm certain that some cut corners. However, I'm also certain that there are gray areas regarding when a corner has actually been cut.

[Chris Fidler]

There is "Safe" and "Unsafe" YMMV

[Euphanasia]

There is "Safe" and "Unsafe" YMMV

OVERSIMPLIFIED

[Chris Fidler]

OVERSIMPLIFIED

Quite!!!...... And Quiet, no need to shout...... 

[peter1908]

I have a question about this.  I understand that Australia is a distant destination for most shippers, but was there actual damage to the items or just the perception that there was a potential for damage?

Real damage and potential damage.
One trombone shipped in a case that has been known to cause damage due to poor design. Creased the bell.
One Marcus Bonna Case cut 1/3 of its length by the sender during packing
One trombone shipped in a case where the mpc was loose and flew around denting the bell

One bell with next to no bubble wrap on (fortunately the box didn't take a heavy hit - which I estimate from looking at the boxes about half of them do)
One pbone wrapped in one layer of bubble wrap and paper - testament to how tough the pbones are!
Etc


I now send all vendors (other than the two I really trust) a slide box from the slide doctor.
And clear instructions as to how to pack a bell.
I ask that no-one sends a complete instrument in a case.
And I insist on insurance.
It adds about $150 to the cost of shipping - but minimises the chance of sender error.

P

[peter1908]

And in the latest couple of packages - a slide that I had paid to be shipped in a slide dr box...arrives with a dent just down from the mpc.
Really easy to see. Really easy to feel.
The vendor just chose not to mention it.
(Plus the leadpipe is completely jammed into the slide...not a major issue (assuming a pro can shift it) - but it would be nice if the vendor was upfront about this stuff.
I tell you....this has been a real lesson for me.
I presumed that musos wouldn't rip off musos.
But alas - it seems this isn't true.

[John Beers Jr.]

I just received the S.E. Shires .547 tenor trombone that was being sold by forum member "Joel Felberg".

Barring one small issue that I trust Mr. Felberg will take care of promptly and in good faith, it arrived well-packed, in good time, and perfectly in the condition described.

I would do business with him again.

[Baron von Bone]

One Marcus Bonna Case cut 1/3 of its length by the sender during packing

A third of the case was chopped off!?

[John Beers Jr.]

A third of the case was chopped off!?

I was confused by that too. I rather assume he means that there was a gash in the nylon/cloth/leather whatever it is covering.

[dj kennedy]

the sellers take to  ups  /fedx   packing places
================
AS MENTIONED  NO  PACKING INSIDE  CASES --CUSTOMER MUST DO THAT
 DO  NOT ASSUME ANYONE  KNOWS HOW TO PACK --EVEN TROMBONE PLAYERS !!!!
---------

[PcolaIrish]

I have bought sight unseen before.  I picked up a Holton Super Collegiate Cornet a couple months ago for $55.  Came with a couple mpc's, one of which was an old 10.5 C Vincent Bach, Vernon, NY.  Seemed like a decent deal.

[wesleyg]

No

[Matt K]

I was confused by that too. I rather assume he means that there was a gash in the nylon/cloth/leather whatever it is covering.

Not quite. It was completely my fault. I had to make sure the case was under.... 79" total inches I think, so I cut a piece of cardboard to fit the case, but I wasn't careful with the razor and cut the cases nylon cover on one of the dimensions. Honestly, I could've sworn I did the cutting with the case separate from the cardboard, but the damage has to have been caused by me since they didn't open it in customs.

We worked something out.  Hope the MB case is treating you well, Peter.  I'm really sorry about that.

[jed12b]

Unless it's someone that I trust, pictures, with a time-stamp, or else it doesn't exist.  Then before I would do anything involving money or transfer of money, I would try and see if I could play the horn.  But if it's someone I don't know, pics or it's not real.

[Jox]

I bought my Bach 50 with Greenhoe valves without trying. It was all the way in Mexico and I've never saw a Greenhoe bass at that point. I love the sound of a Bach 50, our school had 3 and they sound great- just stuffy valves for me. So I figured Bach 50 + more open valves + really low price + brand new slide + sexy = dayum man just get the horn.

  So I got it. I use it to this day. It's a great horn but it plays COMPLETELY different than your ordinary Bach 50. It took a while to adjust and after getting a Kanstul copy of the Holton 169 it plays to my liking.


  If its a fancy brand like Rath, Edwards, Shires, Greenhoe you can expect it to always play well but it might not be to your liking. I always think its kinda weird when someone has some boutique horn and they say they hate the way it plays, most often those are the folks who haven't tried them before they played it. At the same time at the ITF at Finland, my professor tried for a Rath for the first time and fell in love with it. As soon as he went back to the states he ordered one but he always says it was never as good as the one he tried across the ocean.

[daveyboy37]

without seeing? definitely no. Without playing? maybe.

[Richard Tadaki]

Sure, I got three of my Earl Williams trombones that way.      

[mooseman]

I just got a trombone from Noah (Slipmo) and it looks so much better in real life than in the photos. The work Brad Close did on the linkages and cleaning it up made it look almost like a new horn. I'd be more than happy to buy a horn from Noah again with no photo, as his descriptions and reviews are always honest and he spends time playing them to give you the best review possible.

[SandyMBarrows]

Been there, done that....

[dj kennedy]

waiting for a  42b in the  14,000s    -bought sight unseen !!!!!!!!!

[BGuttman]

waiting for a  42b in the  14,000s    -bought sight unseen !!!!!!!!!

DJ, if you bought a horn that was a basket case sight unseen you could still find another one to play amongst your collection while you put the thing in for rehab.

If I were a kid looking to upgrade from his student horn it's quite a different matter.  And even worse if I lived 300 miles from any decent music store.  If I buy something sight unseen and it's bad I'm totally out of luck!

[dj kennedy]

yeah  and i got  aaron  and  dan  waiting on the  rehabs  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bass bones go to benn 
  im  almost spoilded  by these  guys
 so much i  dont do much testing until  after  teching
    ----
aaron has  been gigging  a  lot  w  funky butt brass  band 
-----
  yeah  not recommended   to buy   sight unseen unless you are prepared  for  it
------
 but    ok 2b  for sale  [know what they look  like ] --main thing is if it has  a 2b slide   instead of a  605   

DJ, if you bought a horn that was a basket case sight unseen you could still find another one to play amongst your collection while you put the thing in for rehab.

If I were a kid looking to upgrade from his student horn it's quite a different matter.  And even worse if I lived 300 miles from any decent music store.  If I buy something sight unseen and it's bad I'm totally out of luck!

[BrianP]

I think everyone summed up my thoughts.  I've done this numerous times because of my buying/selling addiction:

1) If from reputable seller that you've had experience with.
2) If not, it's not a horn that I'm buying to be my main horn.
3) It has to be a bargain (duh), and I need some kind of knowledge that it's the right model described!

I'd rather play it blindfolded than ever see it, though.  I've known some real uglies that shine, and some great looking horns that were gold-plated dogs.

-BrianP

[digitaltrombone]

If it is a newer model, specified as I want it, I think I would go for it. I did buy a used Bach 36 a few years ago. It arrived with some problems not described in the ebay add, so I got the seller to transfer some money back to cover the repair. He preferred that rather than have the trombone returned, and I got the horn I wanted.

Anders

[Norberg]

Without seeing it, no.
Without playing it, yes.

I have recently bought a Vocabell and a The Dude off ebay, and had them shipped to the slide doctor for a tune up before shipping to me (in Europe).

Obviously, I had no control over the packaging before they reached the slide doctor. But the slide doctor packaged brilliantly as always, and both horns arrived in good condition.

[sqzpiper]

I did . I bought a Besson Sovereign B/F with a Hagemann valve several years ago
off ebay and it was like new and played beautifully. The case had a scratch though.  I also
bought a King 3B/F off this forum and received more than I expected.  (the instrument
was better than advertised)
Two great experiences.

[jim2014]

For me depends on the price. Then depends on if I'm in the market for a horn of that model or one similar.

[SandyMBarrows]

I've purchased all my horns from Horn Guys without seeing or playing them. I've bought a couple of used ones, as well, from them that exceeded my expectations. The Guys are good at what they do and I trust them implicitly.

Most of the vendors will stand by what they put out there to sell...

If you're looking to try out different horns, a trip to the store would be in order. Doing that via mail order would be ludicrous.

[Trombone224]

I would buy a 36B if I had pictures... And if i could find one

[Offbass]

One aspect of the problem is the quality of the photographs.  I'm much more skilled in photography than as a trombonist, but I have made a number of purchases from eBay and Craigslist (I donate horns to schools) and have made the following observations: (1) trombones are difficult to photograph well due to configuration. (2)flash on camera usually causes highlight reflections off shiny slides, leaving everything else too dark; (3) too few sellers pay attention to background color and distractions. It is best to use a neutral medium-light background, not dark and not white to avoid influencing in-camera meters, and the surroundings should be simple. Draping a medium color blanket from a stand may work. I just bought a silver Olds horn which was photographed against a red cloth, making it look like a rose copper brass; I realized this,of course and wanted the horn anyway. (4)focus, focus, focus, and use a tripod.  Do NOT snatch a quick one with your smart phone. (5)I think diffuse mid-day available light is better than flash, and if the latter, use a diffuser or bounce flash.(6) Take one or two images of the whole assembled horn, details of any damage or problems, and closeups of the bell engraving in vertical format, the slide crook, water key, and valves. A closeup of the serial number is nice. One or two images of the case is fine unless there is a specific issue. (6) If you know how to do this with your digital camera, match your white balance setting for the lighting; (7) and for eBay, don't bother with photos of slide lube, music lyre, lesson books, etc.  Nobody cares; put them in the text.

And while I'm discoursing on eBay matters, I must mention my distress at the general illiteracy and sloppiness in writing of too many vendors.

[jchurch2]

Never. I have learned instruments can be pretty deceiving. I saw a really nice Bach 42 with a thayer, and when I played it, it felt horrible. If you are buying an instrument where the company is far away from where you live and you don't want to travel far, then find someone who has that instrument. I wanted to buy an s.e. shires alto but I didn't want to travel to Massachusetts to try one out and buy it. So I found out one of my friends had one and so I tried it out, loved it, and then decided to purchase one. I suggest ALWAYS trying out an instrument before you buy one. That is just my advise. 

[Matt K]

Absolutely.  I just always know that I might have to drop a few bucks to have someone reassemble the horn.  Even the maker of the parts doesn't matter a whole lot in my opinion, as long as the stuff is assembled right.  I just picked up a franken-slide .547/.562 made of like, yamaha and shilke parts with a Shires receiver.  All "B" grade parts.  Plays way better than my 50 slide for me.

My 42 I got after trying, but it was a straight horn.  Purchased a Shires rotor and had that mounted.  Did not try it before hand, very pleased with the results.

My 50 I also purchased blind (price was right!), I sank a few hundred into it to get it to have the right ergonomics and have the parts function right.  Still got a good deal on it. I'd rather buy used and take the money and have a tech do it right/customize it for me.  I'll probably put a pair of Thayers on it and still come out ahead.

[JimR]

I've purchased all my horns from Horn Guys without seeing or playing them. I've bought a couple of used ones, as well, from them that exceeded my expectations. The Guys are good at what they do and I trust them implicitly.

Ditto for Sandy!  I bought my most expensive instrument, a pristine Conn 62HI from Sandy; she did provide pictures and it truly exceeded my expectations.

When looking for a horn, I always look first for long-standing forum members as potential sellers (right DJ?), especially those that are active players or have a university position in a music department and also have a long history of valuable posts to the forum.  Reviewing forum posts is a good indicator for me of someone I can be comfortable with to do business with via the internet with low risk.  You can learn a lot about a person from their history of posts on this forum!!

Jim

[jmtheob]

I bought both of my bass trombones from pictures, one from Rayburn in Boston and one from Olathe Band Instruments in Kansas.  Both were in very good condition and I am happy with them.  I think you have to know whether the dealer is reliable; I spoke with both dealers at length before I made a decision to buy.

[Dennis Clason]

I'm not sure if I would buy one without seeing it. I am a BIG fan of used, but because I am a kid, if the trombone is  to big for me I can't play it. Therefore, I have to see it, but also hold it.

Liz,

You play a 42: the 42 is about as big a trombone as there is.  The slide spacing is the same as the spacing on a big bass.  If you can hold the 42 you can hold about anything out there.  The bigger question is, "Do I want to hold this thing?"

[jim2014]

Just bought a Yamaha YSL 548 GAL on eBay for 500. We'll  see how this works out.

[dj kennedy]

BUY  IT  NOW  OR  BY IT  KNOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
========
CRAIGSLIST BACH 12 
   
        call up
 whats it  say on bell  ???????????????
         
well  the mouthpiece  says   12 
---
 
============
GET THE PICTURE   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

=========================

[cb56]

I just did and it will be the last time. Bought a Blessing B78 on ebay. Paid on the high side of what they are worth used because it was advertised as "Mint" condition. Get the horn today and there are several dents in it plus lacquer wear and scratching. The part where the string attaches to the rotor is broke, the slide is noisy and slow but will probably be ok with a chem clean. Took it to a tech today and he thought he could whip it into shape for $100 including chem clean. Messaged the seller and haven't heard back yet (big surprise)Hopefully I will get a decent playable horn out of it when it's all over and done with. On top of that I put my Olds Super Star up for sale to finance the Blessing and right now I'm not so sure that the Olds isn't the better horn of the two.

[rodgeman]

I bought my bass, a Holton TR-181 from DJ without pics. It was because he has a good rep. So yes I would.

[XG]

From DJ, yes! And Hornguys too..

[dj kennedy]

if i could  do pics easily i would 
  maybe someday !!!!!!!!!!!!!
========
  and i  could do  a  demo  w pics of a trash  bone   and make  it look  good 
 i remember  looking at pics of an olds recording case
   OH BOY  -CASE LOOKS GREAT
 OTHER  SIDE  CRASHED  W HOLE IN IT  -------HA HA  !!!!!!!!!!

[HeRoze]

Yes.  I've been 100% so far and have made out fine even after replacing beat tuning crooks and pro slide jobs...

Don't spend more money that you can afford to lose on a used horn from an unknown source, however. 

[jsmn4vu]

Well, yes. I've bought a couple from DJ sight-unseen, but the one I'm really proud of was from just a couple of weeks ago ...

Phone rang, and a trumpet-playing friend said, "I'm in an antique store in <nearby town> and there's a trombone that says "Stradivarius Model 8" and "New York USA" on the bell. Is it worth buying? (He mentioned a rather low price.)

"Does it have any dents?"

"No."

"Just buy it, I said, "and if you don't want it, I'll buy it from you."

Long story short, I'm now the happy owner of a N.Y. Bach 8 bought sight-unseen. An hour's work on the slide, which wouldn't fall from its own weight, and it's now like brand-new -- no visible wear on the stockings, even. Sometimes the magic works.

[dj kennedy]

8  8   8  8   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, yes. I've bought a couple from DJ sight-unseen, but the one I'm really proud of was from just a couple of weeks ago ...

Phone rang, and a trumpet-playing friend said, "I'm in an antique store in <nearby town> and there's a trombone that says "Stradivarius Model 8" and "New York USA" on the bell. Is it worth buying? (He mentioned a rather low price.)

"Does it have any dents?"

"No."

"Just buy it, I said, "and if you don't want it, I'll buy it from you."

Long story short, I'm now the happy owner of a N.Y. Bach 8 bought sight-unseen. An hour's work on the slide, which wouldn't fall from its own weight, and it's now like brand-new -- no visible wear on the stockings, even. Sometimes the magic works.

[JLivorsi]

As long as it's sold on TTF I'd trust the seller. Other than that absolutely not