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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: greg waits, tbone62) Schagerl vs. American trombones
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Richard Tadaki

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« on: Sep 04, 2011, 03:24PM »

Yesterday, a trombonist friend was raving about Zoltan Kiss's (member of Mnozil Brass) playing on the Hungarian Schnapsodie video and wondered how much his horn cost in US dollars?  I took a look at the Schagerl website and wondered about the design of their horns.  Specifically, I've always speculated that the bells of German (okay, and Austrian) trombones got bigger at a faster rate from the stem to the flare, kinda like my Williams 8.  Am I right in this?  Or are German and Austrian, and maybe specifically Schagerl's, trombone bells like Bachs and Conns?  Sometimes I find a need for a large bore horn so I was just wondering if a Schagerl might be the horn.   :D

Aloha,
Richard
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« Reply #1 on: Sep 05, 2011, 12:31AM »

The specs seem pretty standard to me...standard as in the typical American specs. But I wouldn't know, never seen one in person or played one, so I wouldn't be able to tell you if there's any Schagerl specific design features (bell taper, slide width, etc...)

But what I do know is that the Kissbone can run anywhere between 4000 and 4500 US dollars based on your desired configuration
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #2 on: Sep 05, 2011, 01:23AM »

Richard, they play like US/UK trombones not like traditional German trombones.

They do a step-up range called the "Academica" and the "Troja" model is a very nice trombone and, in the UK, not expensive.

http://www.schagerl.com/en/Trombone/acadmica-posaune-troja/menu-id-100.html

Try to play one if you can. I did and was impressed.

Cheers

Stewbones
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svenlarsson

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« Reply #3 on: Sep 05, 2011, 05:44AM »

The Schagerl the trombones are not traditional German trombones, they are made in Austria and play like extremely good US/UK trombones,
I tried the Aurora bass, actually better than any trombone I can think of, definitely worth every penny. And more.
The true German trombones are fading away I believe.
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 05, 2011, 11:23AM »

Hi Stewbones and Svenne,

Thanks for your input.  I really appreciate it.  Svenne, do you have any idea who might still be making true German trombones?  Since you've been around Earl Williams trombones, do you think the 8 is similar to a German trombone in the design of its bell?

I looked at the pictures of the "Troja" and the bass and wondered about the wrap.  It looks like there's a very tight bend and immediately wondered if the blow was a little stuffy.  It would seem that the Academica TB-450G would have a better blow.  It would be fun to try out these horns.   :)

Thanks again for you info.  I really appreciate it.   Good!

Aloha,
Richard
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« Reply #5 on: Sep 05, 2011, 11:26AM »

I think thein will make a german style horn.

For a hefty price though  Clever
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« Reply #6 on: Sep 05, 2011, 07:49PM »

There are several makers that build traditional Konzert Posaunne.

Thein is only one of many German instrument makers that build trombones. A number of those makers build serious, true German instruments. Search "Posaune" on Google and you'll be surprised at the number of makers.

Richard, If you want to play a Schagerl, or any other brand for that matter, go for it. Of course play it first (if you can) so you know it works for you, but it really doesn't matter what "we" think. You, and your section mates (a distant second for someone in community groups, IMO) are the only ones that have to be happy with the horn you play.

M
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Richard Tadaki

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« Reply #7 on: Sep 05, 2011, 08:24PM »

Hi Matthew,

My problem is that I live in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and, since I live on Maui, don't have much of an opportunity to try out horns.  (It would be a little different if I lived on Oahu where Honolulu is located.)  Besides, I'm mostly curious what exactly is the difference between a Konzert Posaunne and an American trombone.  I've actually asked this question before but never got a real answer.  I keep thinking that there must be a physical or design difference but no one has ever identified the differences.  Or maybe I'm just imagining it.   :D

Aloha,
Richard
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 05, 2011, 08:53PM »

I believe there is an article on Jay Freidman's website describing a German Kruspe Trombone.
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« Reply #9 on: Sep 05, 2011, 10:14PM »

Yep, I read that.   :)
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« Reply #10 on: Sep 06, 2011, 02:42AM »

Helmut Finke
Heribert & Jurgen Glassl
Ed. Kruspe
Kuehnl and Hoyer
Herbert Laetzsch
Music Haag
Helmut Voigt
Jürgen Voigt


This are the most well known except Thein.
Thein is the most famous, in my opinion because good marketing.
I played Laetzsch contra and tested their bass trombone, a very fine instrument.
Jürgen Voigt make very good horns I tested his classic German, very good.
I tested horns from all the others ( also Thein) most German are of very high quality.
The typical German horn has a shorter or non lead pipe smaller bore in the slide very often dual bore together with a large bell. In short, they are made to fit another sound consept.

Why do you want a German horn? They are very good but does not blend with US horns easily.

Finkes reputation is not so good, their horns wasn’t fantastic in the 60:th today they are much better.

Williams does not sound anything like a German posaune.
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« Reply #11 on: Sep 06, 2011, 02:45AM »

Quote
It looks like there's a very tight bend and immediately wondered if the blow was a little stuffy. 

They blow very open!
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« Reply #12 on: Sep 06, 2011, 05:25AM »

Helmut Finke
Heribert & Jurgen Glassl
Ed. Kruspe
Kuehnl and Hoyer
Herbert Laetzsch
Music Haag
Helmut Voigt
Jürgen Voigt


This are the most well known except Thein.
Thein is the most famous, in my opinion because good marketing.
I played Laetzsch contra and tested their bass trombone, a very fine instrument.
Jürgen Voigt make very good horns I tested his classic German, very good.
I tested horns from all the others ( also Thein) most German are of very high quality.
The typical German horn has a shorter or non lead pipe smaller bore in the slide very often dual bore together with a large bell. In short, they are made to fit another sound consept.

Why do you want a German horn? They are very good but does not blend with US horns easily.

Finkes reputation is not so good, their horns wasn’t fantastic in the 60:th today they are much better.

Williams does not sound anything like a German posaune.

Svenne, do the German Posaune sound more like my old Conn 60h? Could be fun to try one of them.

Leif
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svenlarsson

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« Reply #13 on: Sep 06, 2011, 10:28AM »

Na Leif, the German are more resistant, plays smooth in soft playing have a tendency to break up in loud playing. Conn 60 is one of the best horns made if you ask me.
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 06, 2011, 11:26AM »

Hi Svenne,   Hi

Thank you so much for answering my questions about German trombones.  I never thought about the problem of blending with other horns so thanks for bringing that up too.  Back in the 1960's, I heard an orchestral version of Gershwin's "Porgy and Bess" played by a German orchestra.  There was an incredibly beautiful trombone solo; big, dark, and rich sound like no other trombone sound I had ever heard.  Everyday, when I practice, I strive to achieve that kind of sound, so I wondered if getting a German trombone (German orchestra, after all   :D)  would bring me closer to what I remember.  I don't have the record anymore so my memory of that solo has faded since half a century ago, but it's fun to think about and wonder.   ;-)

I'll have to bookmark this thread and check it occasionally in case I run into one of the makers you mention below.  The list is incredibly helpful.   :)

Thanks again for answering my questions.  I really appreciate it.   Good!   :)

And Leif, thanks for bringing up the Conn 60H which, if memory serves, was designed around a Kruspe bell.  That was a great question.   Good!

Aloha,
Richard
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 06, 2011, 03:32PM »

Hi Svenne,   Hi

Thank you so much for answering my questions about German trombones.  I never thought about the problem of blending with other horns so thanks for bringing that up too.  Back in the 1960's, I heard an orchestral version of Gershwin's "Porgy and Bess" played by a German orchestra.  There was an incredibly beautiful trombone solo; big, dark, and rich sound like no other trombone sound I had ever heard.  Everyday, when I practice, I strive to achieve that kind of sound, so I wondered if getting a German trombone (German orchestra, after all   :D)  would bring me closer to what I remember.  I don't have the record anymore so my memory of that solo has faded since half a century ago, but it's fun to think about and wonder.   ;-)

I'll have to bookmark this thread and check it occasionally in case I run into one of the makers you mention below.  The list is incredibly helpful.   :)

Thanks again for answering my questions.  I really appreciate it.   Good!   :)

And Leif, thanks for bringing up the Conn 60H which, if memory serves, was designed around a Kruspe bell.  That was a great question.   Good!

Aloha,
Richard

The Conn 60H was based on the Conn 70H Fuchs model... when I say based... the bells were pretty much identical.  Nothing to do with Kruspe as far as I know.

Chris Stearn
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Richard Tadaki

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« Reply #16 on: Sep 06, 2011, 04:00PM »

Oops, my mistake.  Yes, Fuchs, not Kruspe.  Thanks for clearing that up, Chris.

I went to take a look at the Lätzsch website (just arbitrarily picked it out) and I see what Svenne means about large bell and dual bore slide.  The two (I'm assuming) top models have 0.488 "- 0.508" dual bore slides and nominally 9" bells.  The physical specs struck me as being conical trombones to the max.  I have to get one of these.   :D  But, unfortunately, they are way over my budget so I don't see them coming my way anytime soon.

This has been very educational for me.  Thank you very much to everyone who contributed.  I greatly appreciate it.   Good!   :)

Aloha,
Richard


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