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Author Topic: Voting Rights  (Read 20717 times)
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sly fox
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« on: Sep 28, 2011, 05:25PM »

I hope we can keep this thread nice and tight and limited to this:

several states, yes Kansas is one, have passed restrictions upon those living in their jurisdictions regarding the right to vote

most commonly, must have a certain form of governmental photo id

a student id from a state university however doesn't cut it.

other restrictions may exist and those should be discussed.

another issue is set forth in this recent US District Court decsion denying relief from a federal law imposing restrictions upon certain jurisdictions to change the right to vote without the approval of the Feds:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/opinion/the-fundamental-right.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

Quote
Editorial
 
The Fundamental Right
 
Published: September 27, 2011

The right to vote is sometimes said to be the most fundamental in American democracy. Yet legal challenges to the federal voting rights law are increasing even as they highlight the racial injustices that make it essential.

In a ruling last week,

https://ecf.dcd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2010cv0651-83

Judge John Bates of Federal District Court rightly dismissed such a challenge by Shelby County, Ala.,

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/22/us/judge-rejects-challenge-to-voting-rights-law-by-county-in-alabama.html

which sought to have a central part of the law declared unconstitutional.

That provision, Section 5, requires states and local governments with histories of racial discrimination to obtain “preclearance” of any changes in local voting rules with the Justice Department or a federal court. Because it was common for jurisdictions to adopt new discriminatory practices after a court struck down old ones, the 1965 Voting Rights Act required the “covered” jurisdictions — six Southern states, and other counties and cities around the country — to show that any proposed rule change would not discriminate against minorities. Congress renewed Section 5 in 2006.

Shelby County, near Birmingham, challenged the preclearance requirement, contending that “it is no longer constitutionally justifiable for Congress to arbitrarily impose” the “disfavored treatment” of having to obtain prior approval from a federal authority. Judge Bates, however, found that, despite Section 5’s effectiveness in combating discrimination, Congress was right to conclude that racism in voting systems continues to this day.

When Congress reauthorized the provision in 2006, he wrote, it found that “40 years has not been a sufficient amount of time to eliminate the vestiges of discrimination following nearly 100 years of disregard” for what the Constitution requires.

The covered jurisdictions remain riddled with intentional discrimination. And there would be even more violations without the deterrent effect of Section 5 and the opportunity that preclearance gives the Justice Department to say no to harmful plans of state and local governments.

The 151-page opinion by Judge Bates, a George W. Bush appointee, is the first major decision on Section 5 since a narrow 2009 Supreme Court case addressed this issue without ruling on the provision’s constitutionality. The judge’s carefully applied analysis, relying on principles set forth by the Supreme Court, provides a model for other courts faced with similar legal challenges.

by the way, I'm listening to my new CD

Meet Mr. Roberts/Buttoms Up

so with that reference to trombones, let's begin, shall we?
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Allen
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« Reply #1 on: Sep 28, 2011, 05:42PM »

Personally, I think voting rights changes in any  jurisdiction should be subject to review, even if the jurisdiction is not one with a history of discrimination against Blacks (they were the only ones who counted in the 1960s).

We are talking about photo IDs here in New Hampshire.  The town will give you a photo ID for free (looks like a driver license, but doesn't allow you to operate).  Problem is, you have to get to the Town Hall to get the ID.  If you don't have transportation (maybe you can't drive for some reason, or you are old, or whatever) you can't get the ID.  This is kinda silly, since my town is some 30,000 people, and the folks at the poll know everybody anyway.

But I can envision the re-institution of the Voting Test as a way to discriminate against those who are uneducated (often new citizens or the poor).  I can envision procedures to disenfranchise temporary residents (we have a Town-Gown fight in Durham, where the University of New Hampshire is).

While I feel that some people don't deserve to vote, they are given that right by your constitution and they should be permitted to vote.  I would discriminate against those who don't know how to intelligently select a candidate.  But such people have been part of strong Democratic and  Republican electorates in the past so my feelings really don't count.  We did limit my mother-in-law's ability to vote when she was so senile that she couldn't tell what the paper ballot was for (much like we curtailed her driving; we weren't allowed to "pull" her license, but we were responsible if she did damage driving while senile).

I agree with the Judge who said 40 years is not a sufficient time to purge the society of prejudice.  Much like Moses had to wander in the desert until he had no former slaves left, so will we have to have controls on voting regulations until there are no people left who used to discriminate.
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« Reply #2 on: Sep 28, 2011, 05:49PM »

Personally, I think voting rights changes in any  jurisdiction should be subject to review, even if the jurisdiction is not one with a history of discrimination against Blacks (they were the only ones who counted in the 1960s).

We are talking about photo IDs here in New Hampshire.  The town will give you a photo ID for free (looks like a driver license, but doesn't allow you to operate).  Problem is, you have to get to the Town Hall to get the ID.  If you don't have transportation (maybe you can't drive for some reason, or you are old, or whatever) you can't get the ID.  This is kinda silly, since my town is some 30,000 people, and the folks at the poll know everybody anyway.

But I can envision the re-institution of the Voting Test as a way to discriminate against those who are uneducated (often new citizens or the poor).  I can envision procedures to disenfranchise temporary residents (we have a Town-Gown fight in Durham, where the University of New Hampshire is).

While I feel that some people don't deserve to vote, they are given that right by your constitution and they should be permitted to vote.  I would discriminate against those who don't know how to intelligently select a candidate.  But such people have been part of strong Democratic and  Republican electorates in the past so my feelings really don't count.  We did limit my mother-in-law's ability to vote when she was so senile that she couldn't tell what the paper ballot was for (much like we curtailed her driving; we weren't allowed to "pull" her license, but we were responsible if she did damage driving while senile).

I agree with the Judge who said 40 years is not a sufficient time to purge the society of prejudice.  Much like Moses had to wander in the desert until he had no former slaves left, so will we have to have controls on voting regulations until there are no people left who used to discriminate.

If they can't get to town hall, then how do they get to the polls to vote?  If you're too lazy then you don't get to vote.
So how would you stop people from voting who shouldn't?
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« Reply #3 on: Sep 28, 2011, 05:54PM »

If they can't get to town hall, then how do they get to the polls to vote?  If you're too lazy then you don't get to vote.
So how would you stop people from voting who shouldn't?

I take offense at your characterization of these people as lazy.  That's judgmental and (to me) selfish.

On Election Day we have a number of volunteers who will shuttle shut-ins and the disabled to the polls. 

Most of the people in my town who don't vote often have jobs that require them to leave home at 6 AM to be at work on time and don't get home until 8 PM because of traffic.  Our polls are open from 7 AM to 8 PM.  Back in the "bad old days" you could get time off from work to vote, but that has gone by the boards for a long time.
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sly fox
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 28, 2011, 05:58PM »

If they can't get to town hall, then how do they get to the polls to vote?  If you're too lazy then you don't get to vote.  . . .

so people who are bed ridden and/or housebound shouldn't be allowed to exercise their constitutional rights????

unlike major metropolitan areas in the US, there isn't effective mass transit in many areas.  you drive or walk to get places.  many elderly must rely on others to get them places.  

some folks work and cannot get to the local city hall during 'normal' working hours.

Quote
So how would you stop people from voting who shouldn't?

who shouldn't vote????

want to explain that???

every adult in the US who meets eligibility requirements, citizenship, has the right to vote.

the burden to take that away must be a very heavy one, quite difficult to lift.

should some not be allowed to vote, yes, but only after they have been proven legally incompetent.

jmvho, ymmv

I would love to hear you defend this statement:

"So how would you stop people from voting who shouldn't?"
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Allen
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« Reply #5 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:09PM »

. . .
 
who shouldn't vote????

want to explain that???

. . .

I would love to hear you defend this statement:

"So how would you stop people from voting who shouldn't?"


Maybe we should ban dentists in metro Seattle? Evil Evil Evil
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« Reply #6 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:13PM »

so people who are bed ridden and/or housebound shouldn't be allowed to exercise their constitutional rights????

unlike major metropolitan areas in the US, there isn't effective mass transit in many areas.  you drive or walk to get places.  many elderly must rely on others to get them places.  

some folks work and cannot get to the local city hall during 'normal' working hours.
 
who shouldn't vote????

want to explain that???

every adult in the US who meets eligibility requirements, citizenship, has the right to vote.

the burden to take that away must be a very heavy one, quite difficult to lift.

should some not be allowed to vote, yes, but only after they have been proven legally incompetent.

jmvho, ymmv

I would love to hear you defend this statement:

"So how would you stop people from voting who shouldn't?"

The city should make allowances to get their id card after hours at least 1 day a week for those that work or who have to wait for a ride.  If they can get a ride to the polls then they can get a ride to city hall.
Everyone who votes should have to prove that they are a citizen.  Period.
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:14PM »

I take offense at your characterization of these people as lazy.  That's judgmental and (to me) selfish.

On Election Day we have a number of volunteers who will shuttle shut-ins and the disabled to the polls. 

Most of the people in my town who don't vote often have jobs that require them to leave home at 6 AM to be at work on time and don't get home until 8 PM because of traffic.  Our polls are open from 7 AM to 8 PM.  Back in the "bad old days" you could get time off from work to vote, but that has gone by the boards for a long time.
If they can get out and vote then why can't they get out and get an id card?
Accommodate everyone to get their cards.  Rides, time off, etc.  Put it in the law.
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sly fox
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:17PM »

altho you might be able to make an argument about competency of those people, you can't ban them unless they have been declared incompetent legally

 Evil :D

"that's a joke, son" Foghorn Leghorn

heck you can't even prevent trumpet players from voting for god sakes

 Evil :D

"that's a joke, son" Foghorn Leghorn
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« Reply #9 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:20PM »

altho you might be able to make an argument about competency of those people, you can't ban them unless they have been declared incompetent legally

 Evil :D

"that's a joke, son" Foghorn Leghorn

heck you can't even prevent trumpet players from voting for god sakes

 Evil :D

"that's a joke, son" Foghorn Leghorn

Who said ban them and who said that hey were incompetent? If they can go out and vote then go out and get an id card.
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« Reply #10 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:21PM »

If they can get out and vote then why can't they get out and get an id card?
Accommodate everyone to get their cards.  Rides, time off, etc.  Put it in the law.

Sometimes we have people who can take the disabled or shut-in person to Town Hall, but there is no organized group except for Election Day.  We have NO public transport in town.  There is a taxi service, but it can cost as much as $30 each way to ride from home to the Poll.

Really, I am very concerned about your attitude here.  I know you have no problems getting to your polling place, but imagine if you were wheelchair-bound?  Or you had a vision problem so you couldn't drive?

And as for taking time off, you may be a nice boss to let your folks go vote, but there are many others who are not so nice.  Their attitude is more like Scrooge: "Why should I pay your wages so you can go somewhere else and not work for me".
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« Reply #11 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:21PM »

so people who are bed ridden and/or housebound shouldn't be allowed to exercise their constitutional rights????

unlike major metropolitan areas in the US, there isn't effective mass transit in many areas.  you drive or walk to get places.  many elderly must rely on others to get them places.  

some folks work and cannot get to the local city hall during 'normal' working hours.
 
who shouldn't vote????

want to explain that???

every adult in the US who meets eligibility requirements, citizenship, has the right to vote.

the burden to take that away must be a very heavy one, quite difficult to lift.

should some not be allowed to vote, yes, but only after they have been proven legally incompetent.

jmvho, ymmv

I would love to hear you defend this statement:

"So how would you stop people from voting who shouldn't?"

proof of citizenship.  The libs don't like to here that because most illegals vote dem.
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« Reply #12 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:23PM »

Sometimes we have people who can take the disabled or shut-in person to Town Hall, but there is no organized group except for Election Day.  We have NO public transport in town.  There is a taxi service, but it can cost as much as $30 each way to ride from home to the Poll.

Really, I am very concerned about your attitude here.  I know you have no problems getting to your polling place, but imagine if you were wheelchair-bound?  Or you had a vision problem so you couldn't drive?

And as for taking time off, you may be a nice boss to let your folks go vote, but there are many others who are not so nice.  Their attitude is more like Scrooge: "Why should I pay your wages so you can go somewhere else and not work for me".
Make it a provision in the law.  Free rides to town hall to get voter id cards.
Employers have to allow their employees to serve on a jury.  Make this the same.
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:23PM »

If they can get out and vote then why can't they get out and get an id card?

You can vote by mail.
 
 
Accommodate everyone to get their cards.  Rides, time off, etc.  Put it in the law.

Good idea--won't help the bed-ridden or those who work at home or probably a number of other demographic categories though.
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:28PM »

If they can get out and vote then why can't they get out and get an id card?
Accommodate everyone to get their cards.  Rides, time off, etc.  Put it in the law.

actually that is why there is absentee ballots ronkny.

however, why have voter id cards, what purpose do they serve.  


proof of citizenship. . . .

no it isn't about proof of citizenship.  

30 years ago, I got involved in politics b/c the local County Clerk would not register any person in the county who was attending the local university unless the person would indicate they declared they would be buried in the county.

It was a down state county and the local Republican thought that any student at the university would be a democrat or worse.

completely illegal but unless a student went to a local voter registration drive instead of the county office, they couldn't get registered to vote.

now some states won't issue the necessary id for voting for out of state students.

all Republican controlled states.

I wonder why they won't?

Quote
The libs don't like to here that because most illegals vote dem.

any evidence that illegal aliens vote????  wouldn't make much sense to go to a place where ids are checked if you were an illegal alien would it.

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Allen
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:32PM »

proof of citizenship.  The libs don't like to here that because most illegals vote dem.

You have to provide proof of citizenship when you register.  It could be a passport, birth certificate, or military discharge.

Once you have registered, your name appears on the voting rolls.  You get checked off when you show up to vote.  If you get an Absentee Ballot (there is a cutoff of 1 week prior to the election) they check you off as well.  

As I said, since the poll workers know everybody in their roll books, a photo ID is nearly meaningless for us.

Make it a provision in the law.  Free rides to town hall to get voter id cards.
Employers have to allow their employees to serve on a jury.  Make this the same.


Hah!  Mister Save Money Cause We're Broke wants to set up a program to spend more money! :-P

And how will your Corporate Republican congressmen feel about costing their contributors money to make sure everybody can get to the polls? ;-)  Why not send a letter to John Boehner asking that we pass a law requiring employers give employees time off to vote.  See how receptive he is.
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sly fox
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:38PM »

Who said ban them and who said that hey were incompetent? If they can go out and vote then go out and get an id card.

recognize this???


 Re: Voting Rights
« Reply #2 on: Today at 07:49 pm »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So how would you stop people from voting who shouldn't?

--------------------------------------------------

that is your quote, isn't it.

now did I take it the wrong way???
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:45PM »

I think our Drillmeister has a simple criterion for who should not vote: anybody who votes Democratic.

Maybe we should sic ACORN on him Evil
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:51PM »

recognize this???


 Re: Voting Rights
« Reply #2 on: Today at 07:49 pm »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So how would you stop people from voting who shouldn't?

--------------------------------------------------

that is your quote, isn't it.

now did I take it the wrong way???
Yes you did.  Non citizen= can't vote.
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« Reply #19 on: Sep 28, 2011, 06:55PM »

Yes you did.  Non citizen= can't vote.

Non-citizen = can't register.  Can't register = can't vote.  ID is redundant.

Now how do we deal with the dead Republicans who vote? Evil
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