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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPedagogy(Moderators: JP, Doug Elliott) How to play Early Jazz Trombone - Method books etc.
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Silver_Sonic
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« on: Oct 25, 2011, 09:29PM »

Hi there colleagues.

I'm currently doing some research for a disseration that I plan to do on early jazz trombone ("New Orleans/Dixieland").

I'm trying to find out if there is any previous writings about how to play early jazz trombone, such as method books or other thesis. I've done a pretty extensive search and I haven't been able to find anything, but before I went on the record to say that such a thing doesn't exist I wanted to ask here first to make sure!

Thanks in advance.

 
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 25, 2011, 09:40PM »

Part of the trouble is the difference in opinion regarding what constitutes "jazz" in its early phase (and still now, but it's a much more global argument).

See, for example, this method for playing Jazz discovered and posted by Mr. Douglas Yeo of the Boston Symphony a year or so ago:
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,55155.msg786794.html#msg786794
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 26, 2011, 03:36AM »

I don't think there was any formal study of how to play jazz trombone in New Orleans, much like there is no formal study on how to sing a Rap song today.  The players of the day learned from each other and from experimenting.  I'm sure there is a lot of awful stuff that got discarded in the process.

There was formal study of playing, though.  Folks like Sidney Bechet took formal lessons to learn all the skills needed to produce the music they played; but it was like using Arban's to learn to play jazz trumpet or jazz trombone.

I have a copy of a book by Miff Mole called "100 Hot Licks", which is actually only a few "hot licks" transposed into different keys.  I believe it dates from the 1930's though.
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 26, 2011, 03:44AM »

I have a copy of the Mole hot licks book I can send you.  (I hope the copyright police aren't listening!)

And check out this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230690848638?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

seems a little high right now. 

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« Reply #4 on: Oct 27, 2011, 03:45PM »

I have a copy of "Jack Teagardenm Modern Trombone". As it is probably long out of print I suppose It would be alrighe to scan it for you. Any legal opinionsBill
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« Reply #5 on: Oct 27, 2011, 03:57PM »

I used to have the Teagarden book but it's gone missing over the years. If you get in the scanning mood let me know.
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 28, 2011, 12:31AM »

Hi Brendan,

The methods of playing early jazz trombone varied a great deal!

In addition, the jazz style known as "Dixieland" was (and still is) quite different from "New Orleans".

IMO, any such dissertation would need to emphasise, or at least acknowledge, this dichotomy.

Have a listen (if you haven't already) to the enormous variety of trombone players in the 1920s. For example, compare Miff Mole's light, lyrical and inventive playing (Dixieland) with the more simple, rooty-tooty tailgate of Kid Ory (New Orleans). I'm not saying one is better than the other, but they are certainly very different....

www.redhotjazz.com
http://www.redhotjazz.com/miff.html
http://www.redhotjazz.com/ory.html
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« Reply #7 on: Oct 28, 2011, 02:30AM »

A 1928 film of Miff Mole in action!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4Aw_DbWNPM&feature=related
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 28, 2011, 04:22AM »

For the early years of jazz coming out of New Orleans, one has to study the ensemble styles since there were no solos in those days.

Kid Ory is certainly the preeminent trombone player, not only from the early days of New Orleans, but of course on to Chicago with King Oliver and Louis Armstrong when the great virtuoso jazz soloists were emerging.

David Wilken wrote a brief treaties on trombone players for The Online Trombone Journal called "Evolution Of the Jazz Trombone". It is a quick read but a good one with a few nice transcriptions:

http://www.trombone.org/articles/library/evojazz1.asp

You should also check out the website of John Birchell - especially the Armstrong/Ory transcriptions:

http://www.themeister.co.uk/dixie/dixieland_jazz.htm

Study The Original Dixieland Jazz Band, the first jazz band to record, particularly the remarkably complex playing (for its day) of Eddie Edwards. There are many controversial arguments of how he came to play that style but I think they are very good ensemble lines and would have been typical of other N.O. musicians of the day - black and white. Notwithstanding, the ODJB were The Beatles of their day and took jazz all round the world influencing all hot jazz development from 1920 to 1960. This is my own transcription of a transcription. :/






Hey, I once started work on a book myself called "Dixieland To Denmark And Onwards" - A Guide To Playing 'Hot" Jazz. I had it up on a website for several years and some of the younger members of this forum liked it a lot. The transcription above was part of it. But it was only ever 75% complete and then I got too busy with the daygig. I took the website down only three months back because I had not done any work on it since 2004. One of these days........... :/ So, I wish you luck with the project.

The only tip I would give you about attempting something like this, is that you will not get anywhere if you try to analyse early trombone styles based on scales and modes related to the different types of chord. It may be a short cut to playing something approaching a jazz solo but it misses out on the most important thing about early jazz (all jazz, if it comes right down to it), which was phrasing. These guys invented jazz and they did not ever go to a Jamey Aebersold camp. Analysing the character of jazz trombone stylists to come up with a method book is not easy. I know. I tried.
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 28, 2011, 09:35AM »

I think this stuff is best learned by listening to a few favorites and imitating and then expanding outward from there. Along those lines I'm currently learning tuba via traditional jazz and New Orleans brass band videos on YouTube. Use what you've got!

That said, if scans of the Miff Mole and/or Teagarden books are available I'd love to have copies, if only to reference a "hot lick" every now and then.  ;-)

Email to mwpfoot<at>mwpfoot.com if you want to share. Thanks!

 Good!
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 31, 2011, 02:26PM »

The Jim Snidero books. There is one called Easy Jazz Conceptions. Comes with a cd to play along with. I strongly recommend them. There is one for each instrument and go from easy to intermediate to advanced. Hickeys.com has them.
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« Reply #11 on: Oct 31, 2011, 03:18PM »

I got into a scanning mood, scanned the Teagarden book (which I bought in 1950 or '51). So far I've had no luck posting it. Could be lack of computer smarts, or it is too big because I scanned it as pictures instead of text??
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 31, 2011, 03:34PM »

It's gonna be big because you scanned as pictures.  Wouldn't make much sense to try to OCR this to text anyway.

I don't know if this forum has a large enough upload area for you to post it.  (Someone will know.)  The alternative is to post it to another website and give us a link.  If you can get me the files, I can help with that.  How big are they?  Is there one file per page that you could email?
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« Reply #13 on: Nov 01, 2011, 02:13PM »

The complete file is 47.8 MB, consisting of 57 pages. The largest page i47.6 K.
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 01, 2011, 02:23PM »

The complete file is 47.8 MB, consisting of 57 pages. The largest page i47.6 K.

I would be happy to host it on my Dropbox site. Is it too big to email it to me? Try it. If it is, just put it on a disc or thumb drive and snail mail it. PM me and I'll give you the address.

Sam
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« Reply #15 on: Nov 01, 2011, 02:47PM »

I would love a link to that when you get it Mr. Burtis.
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« Reply #16 on: Nov 01, 2011, 04:19PM »

Oops, plz disregard.

 Way cool

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« Reply #17 on: Nov 01, 2011, 04:53PM »

I think if you save the photo as a pdf file it will reduce the size.
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« Reply #18 on: Nov 02, 2011, 12:55AM »

The complete file is 47.8 MB, consisting of 57 pages. The largest page i47.6 K.

If you've got them all split out as separate pages, then they're small enough to email each one separately (or even to group it into 5 or 6 emails of about 10 pages each).

I can put them together into one file easily enough and put them on a host somewhere long enough for folks to download.

PM me if you're interested.
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-Howard

The nastiest fellow I've known
Smashed his trombone and ruined its tone.
There's a simple excuse
For his slush pump abuse:
He was born to be bad to the bone.
SilverBone
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« Reply #19 on: Nov 02, 2011, 01:02AM »

I think if you save the photo as a pdf file it will reduce the size.

Only if the PDF creation program uses additional JPEG compression when creating the PDF file.

I don't know what Adobe Acrobat does.  My PDF creator program (Nuance) creates a file that is slightly bigger than its component JPEG files (presumably that is for PDF format overhead).

Actually, I'd be unhappy with any PDF creation program that decided on its own (without me controlling the process) to enforce more compression on the photos than I used on original photo files.  (By default, I'd expect the PDF creation process to retain the same quality of images that I input to it.)
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-Howard

The nastiest fellow I've known
Smashed his trombone and ruined its tone.
There's a simple excuse
For his slush pump abuse:
He was born to be bad to the bone.
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