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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-Chat(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Critical Thinking: Taking Honesty Seriously
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Baron von Bone
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« on: Nov 14, 2011, 05:47AM »

Of course your thinking is perfectly sound, obviously, but ideally this will provide structure and terminology to solidify everyone else's understanding and appreciation of that fact. It also has the potential to provide a good resource for quality control in here, if people take advantage of it--we can certainly use more of that!
 


 
Scientific Skepticism
"Skepticism" and Ignorance
Open-mindedness
 
Critical Thinking - How To:
Critical Thinking 101
Wikipedia's List of Fallacies
Popular Fallacies (should be very familiar to everyone here, esp. PP, or any other forum, or those who live amongst humans)
Austhink: Critical Thinking on the Web
The Fallacy Zoo
Logic & Fallacies: Constructing Logical Arguments
Logical Fallacies Handlist
Virtual School: Constructing A Logical Argument
 
Test and hone your reasoning skills:
Argument analysis practice
Critical thinking blog with exercises and real world tests and examples
 


I'll look into my own notes, surf the interwebs and consult my professional philosopher friends on other good resources and post the links here. Please feel quite free to submit more links to me so they can be posted here.
« Last Edit: Nov 18, 2011, 04:22AM by Baron von Bone » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: Nov 16, 2011, 08:53AM »

Of course your thinking is perfectly sound, obviously, but ideally this will provide structure and terminology to solidify everyone else's understanding and appreciation of that fact. It also has the potential to provide a good resource for quality control in here, if people take advantage of it--we can certainly use more of that!
 
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 
I'll look into my own notes, surf the interwebs and consult my professional philosopher friends on other good resources and post the links here. Please feel quite free to submit more links to me so they can be posted here.



Yippee, we're invited to an "Intellectual Arrogance" pile-on, moderated by non other than the king of such...
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #2 on: Nov 16, 2011, 09:32AM »

Yippee, we're invited to an "Intellectual Arrogance" pile-on, moderated by non other than the king of such...

It's about taking responsible measures in order to ensure your thinking is sound, actually, which is a critical aspect of being genuinely honest.
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 16, 2011, 09:33AM »

What does forensics have to do with taking honesty seriously?????  If you are talking about the study of formal logic, there are definite limits to logic - limits that you either are unaware of or simply choose to ignore.  You can be perfectly honest without being logical.  And you can be perfectly logical without being honest.  Logic has nothing to do with honesty.
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« Reply #4 on: Nov 16, 2011, 09:34AM »


It's about taking responsible measures in order to ensure your thinking is sound, actually, which is a critical aspect of being genuinely honest.

Nope, being honest is a habit.  Logic has nothing to do with it.
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 16, 2011, 09:49AM »

being honest is character

character is how you act when you think no one is looking
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Allen
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 16, 2011, 09:49AM »

What does forensics have to do with taking honesty seriously?????

If you're serious about honestly considering what you understand to be true about X, then you'll take measures to ensure you do in fact understand, and that you're not mistaken or misled. You can be honest and not worry about being mistaken or misled, but if you're really serious about it (because the issue is important to you) it would be irresponsible and counterproductive (and foolish) to just presume and drive on--it would in fact, in many cases, be quite arrogant as well as presumptuous. Hence "Taking Honesty Seriously" rather than just "Being Honest".
 
I suspect that's why so many people notice arrogance when that's illuminated by others who do take honesty seriously, and if they're intellectually irresponsible they'll have no trouble just presuming the one who caused it to be illuminated is actually the source.
 
There's arguably a kind of dishonesty behind that (you're claiming, even if only internally, to know and understand something you really don't), but it's not quite what I'd just call flat out dishonesty until it's taken to the level of rhetoric. It's more an issue of intellectual integrity in the sense of structure or effectiveness--the integrity of your thinking.
 
 
If you are talking about the study of formal logic, there are definite limits to logic - limits that you either are unaware of or simply choose to ignore.  You can be perfectly honest without being logical.  And you can be perfectly logical without being honest.  Logic has nothing to do with honesty.

Yup ... that's why I'm talking about "critical thinking" rather than just logic, and why I linked to a bunch of critical thinking material.
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« Reply #7 on: Nov 16, 2011, 09:56AM »

being honest is character
 
character is how you act when you think no one is looking

Yeah, but you can't very well critically evaluate ideas or claims without the tools you need in order to do the evaluation, and you can't form sound opinions about ideas or claims without critically evaluating them. If you want to hold true opinions rather than just opinions, then you need to develop your tools and apply them. If you profess to hold true opinions without taking the responsibility to vet them properly (or at least reasonably close), then you're being dishonest by virtue of irresponsibility--laziness or bias/investment. It's not quite the same as "active" dishonesty or lying, but it can get pretty damn close. It's like the differences between homicide and manslaughter.
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 16, 2011, 09:59AM »

i think the better analogy, if I may, offer one is:

"ommission/commission"

just a thought.

I was expressing my view on honesty

not the rest of the thread
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Allen
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 16, 2011, 10:54AM »

In addition to understanding logical fallacies, it is also interesting to read about how the brain interprets information imperfectly. I recently read a book by Dan Ariely entitled "The Upside Of Irrationality" which was about some ways in which the brain interprets information irrationally, but in ways which still may sometimes be beneficial.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/books/review/Dunn-t.html
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #10 on: Nov 16, 2011, 11:16AM »

As always, someone else has made my case better than I likely can (at least in essay form):
 
"Skepticism" and Ignorance
 
Keep in mind that being "accused" of ignorance isn't inherently an insult--it's what we have before we know something. We're all ignorant of everything we don't already know, and we all were ignorant about everything we now know before we knew it.
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« Reply #11 on: Nov 16, 2011, 11:18AM »

Funny...
According to the narrow-minded logic here, one could never honestly state their emotions including love, hate, joy, and sorrow. At their core, emotions are the antithesis to logic and while influences may be understood the emotions themselves are not. They are also bound within the mind of the beholder and grouped together under common terms based on presumptions. They cannot be verified, effectively recreated, or experienced by others. The best that can be done is to take a scan of the brain during a given emotional period and theorize on it.

So we couldn't "honestly" state our feelings about each other.

And yet... we can and we do.

You know, logical thought, critical thinking, and such can be very beneficial but they aren't even half of our brain's processing capability. It's a funny thought to say that of a full brain we should attempt to restrict it's processing to less then half of it's capability as much as possible. And this is supposedly needed to advance. That's akin to saying to best use our hands we need to limit ourselves to the middle finger as much as possible.  :-P
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #12 on: Nov 16, 2011, 11:27AM »

Funny...
According to the narrow-minded logic here, one could never honestly state their emotions including love, hate, joy, and sorrow.

Yup ... except that it's not at all the logic here, unless of course you're talking about the logic you're applying.
You can be honest and not worry about being mistaken or misled, but if you're really serious about it (because the issue is important to you) it would be irresponsible and counterproductive (and foolish) to just presume and drive on--it would in fact, in many cases, be quite arrogant as well as presumptuous. Hence 'Taking Honesty Seriously' rather than just 'Being Honest'.

Obviously you don't critically assess emotions in the sense you're talking about in the same way you do ideas and claims and such. Emotions come into play when we fail to take proper account for them and we allow them to corrupt the application of our analytical capacities.
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« Reply #13 on: Nov 16, 2011, 11:38AM »

Yup ... except that it's not at all the logic here, unless of course you're talking about the logic you're applying.
followed by...
Quote
Emotions come into play when we fail to take proper account for them and we allow them to corrupt the application of our analytical capacities.
Which supports exactly what I said about your views. Again, there is no logic in emotions. So tell me oh great fount of logical know-how, how can we "honestly" tell each other that we love one another if honestly is dependent upon logic?

Emotions and non-logical thought are not just the bad left when logic fails. And in fact, they are much more the reasons our species is still here then logical capabilities. Your reflexes? Those aren't logic. Logic is far too slow and dim-witted.
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 16, 2011, 11:43AM »


If you're serious about honestly considering what you understand to be true about X, then you'll take measures to ensure you do in fact understand, and that you're not mistaken or misled. You can be honest and not worry about being mistaken or misled, but if you're really serious about it (because the issue is important to you) it would be irresponsible and counterproductive (and foolish) to just presume and drive on--it would in fact, in many cases, be quite arrogant as well as presumptuous. Hence "Taking Honesty Seriously" rather than just "Being Honest".
 
I suspect that's why so many people notice arrogance when that's illuminated by others who do take honesty seriously, and if they're intellectually irresponsible they'll have no trouble just presuming the one who caused it to be illuminated is actually the source.
 
There's arguably a kind of dishonesty behind that (you're claiming, even if only internally, to know and understand something you really don't), but it's not quite what I'd just call flat out dishonesty until it's taken to the level of rhetoric. It's more an issue of intellectual integrity in the sense of structure or effectiveness--the integrity of your thinking.
 
  
Yup ... that's why I'm talking about "critical thinking" rather than just logic, and why I linked to a bunch of critical thinking material.

Honesty is a virtue, a habit, a characteristic of an individual.  What you are talking about is examining your beliefs.  A better title would be "Seriously Examining Your Beliefs."  No confusion that way.
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« Reply #15 on: Nov 16, 2011, 11:49AM »

followed by...Which supports exactly what I said about your views.

Only by your spin, again.
 
Let me connect all the dots (hopefully I won't miss any).
Emotions come into play when we fail to take proper account for them and we allow them to corrupt the application of our analytical capacities. Otherwise they're inconsequential--another matter entirely. Just as desserts help us enjoy life, but the failure to exercise discipline regarding desserts--desserts taking over our meals, corrupts our enjoyment and robs us of our health.
 
Now, Bob, did I just say desserts are bad? You are able to recognize the difference between use and misuse ... no?
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« Reply #16 on: Nov 16, 2011, 11:54AM »

Let me connect all the dots (hopefully I won't miss any).
Emotions come into play when we fail to take proper account for them and we allow them to corrupt the application of our analytical capacities. Otherwise they're inconsequential--another matter entirely.

Emotions are their own form of analytical capability, and by no means inconsequential. They are just as much a part of our thought process as logical capability, and are often much quicker and more accurate at processing complicated situations then logic. I didn't say that you were advocating chopping off the rest of our fingers, just advocating the overuse of one and calling it the most effective way to use our hands.

So, I ask yet again, if logic is an integral part of honesty, then how could someone honestly state that they love another person?
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« Reply #17 on: Nov 16, 2011, 11:55AM »

In addition to understanding logical fallacies, it is also interesting to read about how the brain interprets information imperfectly. I recently read a book by Dan Ariely entitled "The Upside Of Irrationality" which was about some ways in which the brain interprets information irrationally, but in ways which still may sometimes be beneficial.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/books/review/Dunn-t.html

Yeah, absolutely. You have to acknowledge and accept your (our) limitations, and incorporate them into your critical thinking tool kit in order for that kit to be sound, and if you take honesty seriously you have to be motivated to develop a sound critical thinking tool kit.
 
Struggling against it, by contrast, is telling.
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« Reply #18 on: Nov 16, 2011, 12:17PM »

Emotions are their own form of analytical capability, and by no means inconsequential.

Go back to the dessert analog. Does the fact that the failure to exercise discipline in our dessert habits can be seriously detrimental, even fatal, mean that desserts are inconsequential to our lives, or, in fact, quite the contrary?
 
--
 
You're coming up with almost random objections here, and presenting them as if you were hurling them at me, seemingly thinking they're going to hurt me or something (intellectually or argumentatively speaking). That's fine, I suppose--your own emotions are your own business and what emotions may be behind what you "throw" aren't technically pertinent. But you're hurling these objections pretty wildly, so they aren't even in play in the field in which this is going on. You need to get some control, and ironically I think you're demonstrating precisely the point I'm making in the effort to refute it.
 
 
They are just as much a part of our thought process as logical capability, and are often much quicker and more accurate at processing complicated situations then logic.

Yes, but they can also corrupt and even block our analytical process when they take over and suppress our critical intellect. Or are you arguing that it's bad to be too logical, but perfectly okay to be as emotional as you want?
 
 
I didn't say that you were advocating chopping off the rest of our fingers, just advocating the overuse of one and calling it the most effective way to use our hands.

Yes, but you're bringing that position with you--it's not part of what I'm saying. You just don't seem to be willing to interpret what I've posted in any other way. No matter how much I correct you and try to explain it to you, you're still seeing what you want to see.
 
 
So, I ask yet again, if logic is an integral part of honesty, then how could someone honestly state that they love another person?

Critical thinking, Bob ... critical thinking.
 
The analysis of ideas and claims and such.
 
Does critical analysis factor into embracing or kissing the object of your affection?
 
Well, scratch that ... that could be a sore spot--might get overly personal and reveal too much about your demeanor here. Forget that angle ...
 
You don't generally engage in critical analysis in the process of hand-to-hand combat either. And speaking of desserts, the enjoyment we derive from them isn't generally about sound analyses or critical reasoning. Do you think those points also invalidate anything I might say about critical thinking?
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #19 on: Nov 16, 2011, 12:21PM »

Honesty is a virtue, a habit, a characteristic of an individual.  What you are talking about is examining your beliefs.  A better title would be "Seriously Examining Your Beliefs."  No confusion that way.

Except that it really is about taking honestly seriously and I wanted to make that point, and "beliefs" tends to put a spin on the idea that limits it and sends it in a direction I'd rather avoid.
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