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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-Chat(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Critical Thinking: Taking Honesty Seriously
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« Reply #20 on: Nov 16, 2011, 12:22PM »

Byron, you are SO DAMN SMUG. Sometimes, I just want to grab hold of you and give you a really good smacking. Either that, or knee you in the privates. Yep, this is an emotional reaction, but my goodness, it would make me feel better.
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« Reply #21 on: Nov 16, 2011, 12:41PM »

Byron, you are SO DAMN SMUG. Sometimes, I just want to grab hold of you and give you a really good smacking. Either that, or knee you in the privates. Yep, this is an emotional reaction, but my goodness, it would make me feel better.

To what are you referring?
 
The OP?
 
Bob's version of my argument re: emotion?
 
 ... ?
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« Reply #22 on: Nov 16, 2011, 01:00PM »

Byron, you never cease to amuse.

Logic is at it's most fundamental the equivalent of an on and off switch. It just is. Right or wrong... those are not logical ideas. Good and bad are not either. Logically, if you walk off a cliff as is, you will fall. And logical doesn't care. A logical debate is not logical because logic does not have a motivation for being correct. That is another part of our brain. Your persistence to proselytize logic as exemplified by this thread is not logical. Your arguments are not logical either. Logic just is.

So we have examples like:
Quote
Yes, but they can also corrupt and even block our analytical process when they take over and suppress our critical intellect. Or are you arguing that it's bad to be too logical, but perfectly okay to be as emotional as you want?
This is not a logical evaluation. My analogy is that logic is like the middle finger on a hand. It is an important and strong part of the hand, but it is only a part. Yours is that emotion is a dessert. Something that is nice, but should not be a major part of subsistence but rather can be done without entirely. Of the two examples given, only yours assumes artificially minimizing one or the other, yet you accuse me of minimizing logic. That is known as projection, and no, it is not logical.

And more like:
Quote
Critical thinking, Bob ... critical thinking.
 
The analysis of ideas and claims and such.
 
Does critical analysis factor into embracing or kissing the object of your affection?
The major thing logic excels at is essentially cause and result, question and answer. Yet... I have asked a simple question based on your initial premise multiple times. The above is the only time you have attempted to address it and yet you avoid giving an answer. You instead throw out vague and meaningless terms with no relation and then attempt to avoid the question with another question. That would generally be called avoidance.  

In fact, for all of your dislike of my position, you offer no logical refutation of my points or position. Instead, it is a list of emotional distractions, labels, blind reiterations of your own points, and miscues that in now way actually address any of the points.

You show all of the logical integrity of a kid who was taught abstinence and resorts to oral and anal sex to avoid having "real" sex.

You have very well developed emotionally defensive capabilities, and yet you use them to insist for logical operations in completely illogical ways.

I don't know why, but the irony is just amusing to me.

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« Reply #23 on: Nov 16, 2011, 01:04PM »

  ?
That would generally be termed as denial.  ;-)
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« Reply #24 on: Nov 16, 2011, 01:53PM »

Logic is at it's most fundamental the equivalent of an on and off switch. It just is.

Critical thinking, Bob. The topic here is still critical thinking, not just logic.
 
 
My analogy is that logic is like the middle finger on a hand. It is an important and strong part of the hand, but it is only a part. Yours is that emotion is a dessert. Something that is nice, but should not be a major part of subsistence but rather can be done without entirely. Of the two examples given, only yours assumes artificially minimizing one or the other, yet you accuse me of minimizing logic. That is known as projection, and no, it is not logical.

Perhaps it appears that way because I was trying to make a point that you're absolutely refusing to accept I was trying to make, and you're shifting the point to the point you want me to be trying to make?
 
Again, you choose to spin rather than to make any sincere attempt at understanding my actual point.
 
The hand analogy doesn't work very well, because it's hard to work out how the hand could be made ineffective because another finger had overpowered the middle one (or vice-versa ... whatever). Sugar works though, instead of dessert. Without sugar we simply don't function, and I'd argue that without emotion life would be pretty meaningless.
 
Now can you actually try and consider the correct context of my comments about emotion?
 
 
And more like:The major thing logic excels at is essentially cause and result, question and answer. Yet... I have asked a simple question based on your initial premise multiple times.

No, you've repeatedly asked a question based upon your inaccurate version of my premise, whereas if you weren't dogmatically clinging to your distorted spin on it, you'd realize the question is actually pretty much non-sequitur. This has become the norm with you, Bob. When you come after me you spend all your time arguing some detached version of my points that you've created, and you absolutely will not release your death grip on them, no matter how much correction and explanation you're presented with to straighten it out.
 
 
The above is the only time you have attempted to address it and yet you avoid giving an answer.

Because there's a fundamental underlying error that would reveal how utterly impertinent the question is if you would allow yourself to recognize it, and because it's purely distraction and distortion.
 
Also because of all of that, if I just answer your question it will just confuse and probably anger you, and that pattern is tiresome, besides being a complete waste of time. But, if you insist:
 
"If logic is an integral part of honesty, then how could someone honestly state that they love another person?"
By stating that they love someone whom they love.
 
But, again, I'm talking about critical thinking here, not just logic. In fact the only time I've even used the term is in links, and in trying to correct you and Billy for using it instead of critical thinking.
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« Reply #25 on: Nov 16, 2011, 01:59PM »

Please wake me when anyone in this topic has said anything substantial.
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« Reply #26 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:00PM »

Emotions are their own form of analytical capability, and by no means inconsequential. They are just as much a part of our thought process as logical capability, and are often much quicker and more accurate at processing complicated situations then logic. I didn't say that you were advocating chopping off the rest of our fingers, just advocating the overuse of one and calling it the most effective way to use our hands.

So, I ask yet again, if logic is an integral part of honesty, then how could someone honestly state that they love another person?

I don't think that you and Byron are that far different here. It may be helpful to point out here, for clarity, that the brain isn't really organized like a hand, with fingers implying rougly equal functions. In a conflict between emotion and logic in the brain, emotion always wins. It's just the way the brain works. Even when someone becomes swayed by a good logical argument, it means that this someone was swayed emotionally to accept a logical argument, or that this someone has an emotional value for logical argument which is stronger than whatever emotional value for other things which would sway opinion in another direction.

I think that Byron's point is to make sure that whenever possible, always tie our underlying beliefs that influence this emotional underpinning of brain function to fact and reason so that the times in which we are swayed away from reality by the emotional side of our brain are minimized. For example, it isn't just accepting the logical value of, say, eliminating the death penalty over an emotional response of revenge, it is preparing ourselves in advance so that revenge doesn't get a chance to push us in an irrational direction regarding the death penalty.
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« Reply #27 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:02PM »

Because there's a fundamental underlying error that would reveal how utterly impertinent the question is if you would allow yourself to recognize it, and because it's purely distraction and distortion.
 
Also because of all of that, if I just answer your question it will just confuse and probably anger you, and that pattern is tiresome, besides being a complete waste of time.
Your continual spouting off about the emphasis of logic and critical thinking is a tiresome pattern and a waste of time. After all, you've been saying the same thing to the same people for what, almost 10 years now? When has that ever stopped you? Even in this, how many words did you use to say you weren't really going to answer the question?
 
Quote
"If logic is an integral part of honesty, then how could someone honestly state that they love another person?"
By stating that they love someone whom they love.
And what part of that involved "critical thinking"?

Such an interesting answer for one who said:
Quote
Quote
What does forensics have to do with taking honesty seriously?????
If you're serious about honestly considering what you understand to be true about X, then you'll take measures to ensure you do in fact understand, and that you're not mistaken or misled. You can be honest and not worry about being mistaken or misled, but if you're really serious about it (because the issue is important to you) it would be irresponsible and counterproductive (and foolish) to just presume and drive on--it would in fact, in many cases, be quite arrogant as well as presumptuous. Hence "Taking Honesty Seriously" rather than just "Being Honest".

So, if someone just states they love someone whom they love, how do they "ensure [they] do in fact understand [that they love that person], and that [they're] not mistaken or mislead"? After all, it "would be irresponsible and counterproductive (and foolish) to just presume [they loved them] and drive on".
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« Reply #28 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:02PM »

Please wake me when anyone in this topic has said anything substantial.

Alright Rip Van Winkle. Nap well. :)
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« Reply #29 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:06PM »

In a conflict between emotion and logic in the brain, emotion always wins.
Define "wins" please.  :)

When someone is swayed emotionally to accept a logical argument, is the logical part of that argument any less logical for it?

In another vein, is the fact that an argument has a large amount of logical properties somehow inherently better then one that does not have that much logic? And if so, is that not a logical argument?
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« Reply #30 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:06PM »

I give up ... you can't correct someone who refuses to accept he may not be right (or one who seems incapable of even conceiving such a thing in this case).
 
Andrew, you've got it ... I'll try to stay out of the way. I think maybe you can get through here, whereas the mere fact that I'm involved in my own attempts to do so will probably only make the problem worse.
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« Reply #31 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:14PM »

I give up ... you can't correct someone who refuses to accept he may not be right (or one who seems incapable of even conceiving such a thing in this case).

Sure, though at no time have I indicated that I cannot be wrong. I have simply asked questions, and provided insight into my thoughts behind them. So unless you can provide examples that dispute the next part, it would not be me you are referring to.

You however, have not actually addressed and answered a single question that I or anyone else here has actually asked you. A very few you have quoted, misstated the position, and talked past, but still not actually answered. Using "logic" or "critical thinking" this is pretty easy to see. Since you make that comment as if you are referring to another person, it looks like you once again fall to emotional projection.

Again, oh the irony in a "critical thinking" discussion.  :)
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« Reply #32 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:16PM »

Define "wins" please.  :)

I'm too lazy. Use a dictionary. :)

Quote
When someone is swayed emotionally to accept a logical argument, is the logical part of that argument any less logical for it?

No.

Quote
In another vein, is the fact that an argument has a large amount of logical properties somehow inherently better then one that does not have that much logic? And if so, is that not a logical argument?

Is this a rhetorical question?
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« Reply #33 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:19PM »

Byron, you are SO DAMN SMUG.

Funny enough, the thing he most reminds me of is when I heard a "devout Christian" emphatically state that Jesus did not drink wine because it was a sin. This person was also very proud to be an "intelligent" member of his church, in that he was wise in the underlying theology behind it.

Apparently in there he forgot that his church recognized only two sacraments: baptism, and communion. And that in one of those, he actually gave wine to his followers saying it was his blood and to drink said wine in remembrance of him.
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« Reply #34 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:20PM »

Andrew, you've got it ... I'll try to stay out of the way. I think maybe you can get through here, whereas the mere fact that I'm involved in my own attempts to do so will probably only make the problem worse.

Well, that's good to know that I generally understand where you're coming from. However, I'm now off to play a gig. Cheerio!  :D
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« Reply #35 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:23PM »

I'm too lazy. Use a dictionary. :)
A dictionary does not define the use of "wins" in a contest of two non-competing things. I use my arms for picking things up, and my legs for walking. The fact that I can employ both at once to carry something across the room neither requires conflict nor a "winner". It is the same for grasping with multiple fingers and just about every other part of our body, mentally and physically, and that includes logical and various methods of non-logical thinking. So I'm wondering either how you feel that there can be a winner without competition, or where the competition is?

Quote
No.
Good.

Quote
Is this a rhetorical question?
Nope.
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« Reply #36 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:24PM »

I generally stay out of debates these days as I've discovered I don't debate well, but that doesn't make me wrong, it only makes me a poor debater.  In other words, IMHO: all winning a debate proves is that you are the superior debater, it does not prove you are correct.

Forensics:
At its best, forensic science (as distinct from empirical science) is really just guessing and at its worst, wild speculation.

Logic (yes, I cherry picked these - make sure you read the last one):
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Logic and mathematics are nothing but specialised linguistic structures.
Jean Piaget
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Logic can often be reversed, but the effect does not precede the cause.
Gregory Bateson
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Logic is a poor model of cause and effect.
Gregory Bateson
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Logic is in the eye of the logician.
Gloria Steinem
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Logic is like the sword - those who appeal to it, shall perish by it.
Samuel Butler
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Logic is neither a science nor an art, but a dodge.
Benjamin Jowett
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Logic teaches rules for presentation, not thinking.
Mason Cooley
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Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.
Albert Einstein
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Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.
Ambrose Bierce
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Logic! Good gracious! What rubbish!
E. M. Forster
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No mistake is more common and more fatuous than appealing to logic in cases which are beyond her jurisdiction.
Samuel Butler
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One of the best things to come out of the home computer revolution could be the general and widespread understanding of how severely limited logic really is.
Frank Herbert
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Pain always produces logic, which is very bad for you.
Frank O'Hara
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Those who desire to rise as high as our human condition allows, must renounce intellectual pride, the omnipotence of clear thinking, belief in the absolute power of logic.
Alexis Carrel
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We especially need imagination in science. It is not all mathematics, nor all logic, but it is somewhat beauty and poetry.
Maria Montessori
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We live in a Newtonian world of Einsteinian physics ruled by Frankenstein logic.
David Russell
and finally:
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Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence
Joseph Wood Krutch
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« Reply #37 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:27PM »

I generally stay out of debates these days as I've discovered I don't debate well, but that doesn't make me wrong, it only makes me a poor debater.  In other words, IMHO: all winning a debate proves is that you are the superior debater, it does not prove you are correct. . . .

every debate contest, academic debate that I am aware of, was judged not on the "merit" - who was correct - but rather on the way the debate was conducted.

that is what I was told to judge on when I was a judge for them.

jmvho, ymmv
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« Reply #38 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:31PM »

every debate contest, academic debate that I am aware of, was judged not on the "merit" - who was correct - but rather on the way the debate was conducted.

that is what I was told to judge on when I was a judge for them.

jmvho, ymmv
Which is quite sensible when you consider that all a debate really is is a set of emotional appeals of persuasion.

It's part of what I find funny about these persuasive attempts to say that we shouldn't be swayed by persuasion. It's like talking about silence. The very act of what Byron attempted to do is in direct conflict with his stated goals. :)
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« Reply #39 on: Nov 16, 2011, 02:31PM »

Thank you Sly Fox, you make my point nicely, but not all debates are formal contests.  witness this thread...
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