Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1092555 Posts in 72291 Topics- by 19423 Members - Latest Member: juanito
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-Chat(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Critical Thinking: Taking Honesty Seriously
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Critical Thinking: Taking Honesty Seriously  (Read 43996 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51514
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #200 on: Dec 28, 2015, 05:46PM »

You'll never convince any of us with agendas to read and/or apply any of that.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18657
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #201 on: Dec 28, 2015, 06:06PM »

You'll never convince any of us with agendas to read and/or apply any of that.

Heh ... I'm not sure that's true, at least not for the most part.
 
Even most of those with "agendas" will find those videos both agreeable and at least somewhat interesting and informative, even if not in application in certain areas (i.e. even if the principles have to be compartmentalized and safely denied entrance into the realms of their sacred cows). Some in the OTF with "agendas" however, are happily for all in the OTF not apparently reading my topics or my posts--or at least most of my posts--so of course they won't view those videos, and they certainly won't apply the concepts. The former is for the best and the latter just ain't happnin' anyhow.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
ronkny

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: wa
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Posts: 11378

View Profile
« Reply #202 on: Dec 28, 2015, 07:03PM »


Heh ... I'm not sure that's true, at least not for the most part.
 
Even most of those with "agendas" will find those videos both agreeable and at least somewhat interesting and informative, even if not in application in certain areas (i.e. even if the principles have to be compartmentalized and safely denied entrance into the realms of their sacred cows). Some in the OTF with "agendas" however, are happily for all in the OTF not apparently reading my topics or my posts--or at least most of my posts--so of course they won't view those videos, and they certainly won't apply the concepts. The former is for the best and the latter just ain't happnin' anyhow.
Bruce is right.
Logged

Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.
Ronald Reagan
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18657
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #203 on: Dec 28, 2015, 08:01PM »

Heh ... I'm not sure that's true, at least not for the most part.
 
Even most of those with "agendas" will find those videos both agreeable and at least somewhat interesting and informative, even if not in application in certain areas (i.e. even if the principles have to be compartmentalized and safely denied entrance into the realms of their sacred cows). Some in the OTF with "agendas" however, are happily for all in the OTF not apparently reading my topics or my posts--or at least most of my posts--so of course they won't view those videos, and they certainly won't apply the concepts. The former is for the best and the latter just ain't happnin' anyhow.
Bruce is right.

I agree depending upon how he means "those with agendas". That's a big part of what I explained in my post (note particularly the second half/the last two sentences). "Those with agendas" is actually everyone though, or at least everyone in the OTF, if you don't add unstated qualifiers (that's part of what my response was about--you probably should have read it before replying to it). Ironically though, if you do watch and understand the videos what he posted is basically saying I can't get those who Bruce is speaking of to reason effectively and/or genuinely consider ideas they aren't already favorable toward. I agree with that, but that's certainly not true of all of "those with agendas" as he actually stated (i.e. according to what he actually wrote without any unstated qualifiers added). I suspect as you apparently do that he probably specifically meant my fans though, the rest of whom I kind of hope stick to their current patterns as mentioned in that same response, so they're obviously not really a concern--certainly not my target audience.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
MoominDave

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 3388

View Profile
« Reply #204 on: Jan 10, 2016, 11:06AM »

I find this profound.

What is emerging is the worst kind of echo chamber, one where those inside are increasingly convinced that everyone shares their world view, that their ranks are growing when they aren’t.

This is not a “political correctness” issue. It’s a fundamental rejection of the possibility to consider that the people who don’t feel the same way you do might be right. It’s a preference to see the Other Side as a cardboard cut out, and not the complicated individual human beings that they actually are.

Sharing links that mock a caricature of the Other Side isn’t signaling that we’re somehow more informed. It signals that we’d rather be smug ******** than consider alternative views. It signals that we’d much rather show our friends that we’re like them, than try to understand those who are not.

We should all enter every issue with the very real possibility that we might be wrong this time.

A dare for the next time you’re in discussion with someone you disagree with: Don’t try to “win.” Don’t try to “convince” anyone of your viewpoint. Don’t score points by mocking them to your peers. Instead try to “lose.” Hear them out. Ask them to convince you and mean it. No one is going to tell your environmentalist friends that you merely asked follow up questions after your brother made his pro-fracking case.

Because refusing to truly understand those who disagree with you is intellectual laziness and worse, is usually worse than what you’re accusing the Other Side of doing.

Near 100% of the bad atmosphere that gets generated on contentious topics on TTF comes down to interactions where one person gets focussed on 'winning', then the other takes the hump and starts responding in kind, but a bit worse.
Logged

Dave Taylor

(me, not the other one)
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18657
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #205 on: Jan 10, 2016, 11:51AM »

Excellent!
 
I'd go a step further than Blanda on a couple of key points.
 
I'd say that you don't need to only consider that you might be wrong this time, you need to reserve forming conclusions until you've run all avenues of doubt and potential error you can identify though a critical process of consideration according to proven, established standards. It's all about the process, not taking the right conclusion and finding validation for it.
 
I'd also point out that while using information to cheerlead like-minded types is one thing, and it's a whole different thing when you're so convinced or just uncritical that you think such a source isn't just making a point that resonates with your ideological peers but that it's actually objectively convincing and that those who disagree should see it that way too (sometimes a particularly poorly considered view is actually pretty obviously in conflict with the facts and/or reason, but that's not what Blanda's talking about).
 
Those are relatively quite trivial quips though. It's an excellent essay!
 
I'm going to unpack it paragraph by paragraph and probably post a good bit if not all of it.
 
Actually, how about you make this its own PP topic, Dave ... eh? That way we can get all kinds of that sort of thing going on.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
MoominDave

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 3388

View Profile
« Reply #206 on: Jan 10, 2016, 11:58AM »

Go for it if you want to post it in a topic on its own - I have no copyright on it... I thought it was well categorised in this topic, so I'll leave that to you if you want to.
Logged

Dave Taylor

(me, not the other one)
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18657
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #207 on: Jan 10, 2016, 01:09PM »

Nah ... I agree with you. My reasoning is more about the relative cleanliness of this topic and what happens when I post something like this. But you're right, that's all basically what the article's about, and it should go in here.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18657
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #208 on: Jan 13, 2016, 05:44AM »

Excellent bit here!
 
It's like a lot of what goes on in PP ... only it's a brutish version without any apparent attempt at or indication of the false profundity part.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
MoominDave

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 3388

View Profile
« Reply #209 on: Jan 13, 2016, 06:14AM »

The common factor between the purveyor of pseudo-profundities and the purveyor of argument-detailing trollisms is that both are making believe (sometimes even to themselves) to those around them that both of them are playing the same game, when in fact they are not.

The interlocutor, attempting to understand, is presented with items designed to simultaneously stop them playing the understanding game and to stop them noticing that they are ceasing to play it.

Scenario 1: The pseudo-profundist
People: Talk about stuff.
PP: Some empty stuff that is phrased very grandly that takes genuine intellectual effort to process enough to see the emptiness within.
People: That sounded wise. Hard work to see exactly how, but PP is probably trustworthy.

Scenario 2: The TTF Practice Break thread derailer
People: Talk about a topic.
TTFPBTD option 1: "<Insert political caricature that doesn't apply to anyone specific here; "liberals" is a popular one often seen in TTF PB> think in some way". Imply that there are some present that actually do match this vague and almost always inaccurate overgeneralisation.
TTFPBTD option 2: Ask a pseudo-profound question.
TTFPBTD option 3: Argue against a point not made in a way that implies that some person is foolish for believing in the point that they didn't in fact make.
TTFPBTD option 4: Employ some other known logical fallacy to similar effect.
People: Grumble, shout back, in general be distracted from the conversation that was previously being had.

Both are making believe that they are honestly discussing stuff with the same objective as others - to increase mutual understanding. But both are in fact seeking to increase their social cachet at the expense of those that are actually engaging in what they are making believe that they are doing.
Logged

Dave Taylor

(me, not the other one)
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18657
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #210 on: Jan 13, 2016, 06:23AM »

Nice breakdown!
 
May have to be unpacked though. Then again there's probably no point in that.
 
This is mostly what I'm getting at when I bring up context (of course you know this already, obviously), but that may only cover one form.
 
 --
 
Still want to get back to the Blanda essay--just been way too damn busy lately.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
MoominDave

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 3388

View Profile
« Reply #211 on: Jan 13, 2016, 01:43PM »

Just listening through an old brass band recording of a rather turgid piece, it occurs to me that pseudo-profundity is a concept strongly applicable to the writing of music too. Very much music gets written that prefers to try to convince us of its worth via these techniques than by actually containing music worth listening to.
Logged

Dave Taylor

(me, not the other one)
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12453

View Profile
« Reply #212 on: Jan 13, 2016, 03:22PM »

it occurs to me that pseudo-profundity is a concept strongly applicable to the writing of music too. Very much music gets written that prefers to try to convince us of its worth via these techniques than by actually containing music worth listening to.

I'd put mixed meter for no apparent reason at the top of that list.
Logged

Tim Richardson
MoominDave

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 3388

View Profile
« Reply #213 on: Jan 13, 2016, 04:11PM »

Of all the self-pleasing approaches found in the body of Western music composition, that wouldn't even make my top 20...
Logged

Dave Taylor

(me, not the other one)
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18657
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #214 on: Jun 25, 2016, 11:17AM »

A good example of why we're better off as a society if we promote and enable critical thinking--the humility required to take honesty seriously.
 
It's a dramatic example for sure, not a representative one, but it makes the point all the more clearly because of that.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18657
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #215 on: Jul 16, 2016, 09:48PM »

Interesting. Does anyone see any problems with this research, as reported?
 
Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
MoominDave

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 3388

View Profile
« Reply #216 on: Jul 17, 2016, 01:23AM »

Well, firstly the headline is an overgeneralisation of the report content...

It shouldn't be a surprise to learn that a preference to stand in a particular region of the more-or-less continuous line running from consonance to dissonance in harmony is not an absolute. After all, Western music has bobbled around all over that line over the centuries, from the rigid parallel fifths of organum to those items of the last century where one gets the distinct impression that the actual pitches and their interrelations are not very important at all.

Finding people previously unexposed to the idea of harmony and trying it out on them is an interesting idea, though one that potentially raises ethical questions of cultural contact. Leaving that aside, I recall being accidentally made to feel quite dim by my father at quite a young age - 3 or 4 - when he attempted to use the household piano to introduce me to the idea of harmony. He played two two-note chords, asking me which pair of notes was more similar - firstly an octave C-C, then a semitone C-C#. My response - the dissonant second pair - they were much closer in pitch (of course at that age I didn't have the proper words). He tried to sell me on the idea that the consonant first pair had a quality that made them complementary, but I didn't hear it at all, and insisted that the dissonant pair was better matched. He gave up the demonstration in a certain amount of puzzlement (I daresay he'd wanted to move onto 5ths, 3rds, then triads, etc), and I was left with the discomfiting feeling that I'd failed to grasp something that everyone should be expected to intuit, something obvious - which is the reason the event is still in my memory; a successful demonstration might well not have made such an impression.

Asking people with no prior harmonic context to rate intervals for "pleasantness" strikes me as treading the same ground as that child demonstration - with no prior experience of hearing combined tones, the asking of such a subjective question doesn't quite ask the question that the researcher thought it would. I don't know what would be a better question - perhaps "Do the two sounds being played interact?". But then one can clearly hear dissonant tones interacting more than consonant tones. Or "Do the two sounds being played go together?". But then the subject is still being invited to supply their own context - "Sure, the dissonant pair are closer in pitch". Some basic familiarity with ideas of harmony has to be established before the question can even be meaningfully asked - and then the slanting effect of that Western musical education will spoil the results.

The conclusion I'd draw from it is that, while consonance and dissonance are clearly real phenomena, it doesn't seem that all humans have an inbuilt mechanism for detecting them - it's a learned skill, at least for some. The next question I suppose would be: "Do some humans have this skill inbuilt while others don't?".
Logged

Dave Taylor

(me, not the other one)
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18657
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #217 on: Oct 29, 2016, 08:30AM »

A while back someone posted a graphic diagram rating the accuracy and perceived credibility of most popular news sources. It was a series of colored squares that measured actual accuracy against perceived accuracy along with favored sources. Does anyone recall where that was posted and/or when? It was particularly interesting information, and it made for an equally interesting if brief discussion. I think BOB posted the initial link to the research, but I'm not sure.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18657
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #218 on: Jun 25, 2017, 03:59PM »

Probably the most consequential measure of honesty and integrity and intellectual courage is how we deal with this information.
 
Awareness is pretty damn important, but I'd argue that we human brain users have to invest in the process rather than in any given conclusions in order to do our best at correcting this serious problem with our OS.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18657
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #219 on: Nov 16, 2017, 09:07AM »

Preface to Intro to Taking Honesty Seriously 101
 
I'm a bit skeptical of Torres' claims, but while his quoted comments can be seen as I'm bein' oppressed!, the affirmation strategy so popular with those who earn rebuke and turn it into ideological affirmation in the form of perceived persecution (I'm bein' oppressed because my well reputed targets are threatened by the truth which I speak, because I'm a smarter/real skeptic than everyone else ... ) it can also be seen as presented in the article.
 
In any case, regardless of these potentials regarding the Torres bit, the principles presented are solid (as are the links--especially this one, also this one, and for very fundamental background material--Intro to the Preface to the Intro to Human Brain Ownership--also this one).
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12   Go Up
Print
Jump to: