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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Santorum has won the right to his thread
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ddickerson

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« Reply #280 on: Feb 22, 2012, 09:10PM »

It's getting lost alright, but maybe we can get you back on track here...
 
So if theocracy is part of the religion's doctrine, that doesn't count. Why?

Because our form of government doesn't allow for theocracies to operate in parallel to our government.

In contrast, Christianity does not set up theocracies, even tho' you people like to convince others that it does.
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« Reply #281 on: Feb 22, 2012, 11:55PM »

I think theocracy is a matter of degree.

It would be ridiculous to compare the US to any Muslim-based theocracy, where you can face legal consequences and even execution for practicing a non-Muslim religion (and that is commonplace even in many Mideast countries we consider as allies). If Rick Santorum is our next president, and if he gets his way on every issue, we still won't be jailing rape victims for adultery or executing heretics.

But using any one religion as the basis for law, or having official, tax-paid ceremonies or services that exalt a particular religion or religion in general, is a part-measure of the same thing.

I don't look at the hideous theocracies of the Mideast and wish for a watered-down version of the same thing.
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« Reply #282 on: Feb 23, 2012, 04:16AM »

It's getting lost alright, but maybe we can get you back on track here...
 
So if theocracy is part of the religion's doctrine, that doesn't count. Why?
Because our form of government doesn't allow for theocracies to operate in parallel to our government.
Rhetorically speaking, that's taking the position that it's right because that's the way the US government does it. Remember, the subject at hand is whether or not the government has the right, ethically speaking and legally speaking, to interfere in the practice of religion. What you've just stated amounts to the argument that it's okay to interfere with Islamic religious practice because that's the way our government is, and I doubt that's the actual argument you want to make.
 
In contrast, Christianity does not set up theocracies ...
Christianity doesn't set up theocracies currently in the US. No, it doesn't, but there are undeniably, demonstrably ... obviously, many Christians, civilians and elected government officials, who would like to change that. You have to deny some rather unambiguous and conclusive evidence if you want to argue to the contrary.
 
... even tho' you people like to convince others that it does.
Define "you people", because I'm not sure who you're responding to now, but I can probably get some of "those people" involved if you'd like to discuss that position with them.
 
 --
Remainder (i.e. pretty much all the stuff that's not neat and easy--that threatens to demand real intellectual effort):
Mormonism - I don't have an opinion, but maybe if the Mormons thought that it was important to them they would raise the issue and see where the supreme court comes down on it.
So you don't have an opinion on whether or not the government's imposition on the Mormon church preventing the practice of the doctrine of polygamy was wrong/beyond its ethical purview. Fair enough (just making sure I'm not misinterpreting you).
 
This whole thread has gone weird because Santorum, if elected, would not create a theocracy like you guys are trying to claim. False claim. False premise.
He presents a strong inclination to do just that, actually. You probably just don't see if that way because you're okay with being "forced" to do more or less what you do anyway. You may want to give that notion a bit more thought.
 
 --
 
In any case, are you getting the idea yet that a line has to be drawn, that you can't pretend any encroachment into religious practice is wrong and/or outside of the government's constitutional mandate? Declaring the government is interfering with religious practice isn't the same as arguing it's violating the Constitution, or that it's wrong or even questionable. It's about where the line is appropriately, properly, justly and ethically drawn.
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« Reply #283 on: Feb 24, 2012, 07:26PM »

In contrast, Christianity does not set up theocracies, even tho' you people like to convince others that it does.

Sometimes, people do set up Christian theocracies. The theocracy of Massachusetts that the Puritans set up was a major inspiration behind Roger Williams' idea of separating church from state, and why that idea ended up in the Rhode Island constitution before Thomas Jefferson adopted it into Virginia's.
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« Reply #284 on: Feb 24, 2012, 07:35PM »

To add to Andrew's comment, we have had many Theocracies in Europe.  One of the first was the Holy Roman Empire.  The monarchy of Spain in the 1400s to 1600s was heavily Christian (they even expelled all Jews and Moors in 1492).

I would put the Spanish Inquisition against the Taliban any day.  Different religions, same effect.
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« Reply #285 on: Feb 24, 2012, 07:51PM »

To add to Andrew's comment, we have had many Theocracies in Europe.  One of the first was the Holy Roman Empire. 

Which, famously, was neither holy, Roman, nor an empire. Simply an autocracy wherein Charlemagne was head of church and state. Unlike, for example, Pakistan or Iran in contemporary terms.
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« Reply #286 on: Feb 24, 2012, 07:55PM »

Which, famously, was neither holy, Roman, nor an empire. Simply an autocracy wherein Charlemagne was head of church and state. Unlike, for example, Pakistan or Ian in contemporary terms.

Iran is ruled by a theocracy.  As was Afghanistan.
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« Reply #287 on: Feb 24, 2012, 07:57PM »

Iran is ruled by a theocracy.  As was Afghanistan.

Thanks for explaining this.
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ddickerson

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« Reply #288 on: Feb 24, 2012, 09:36PM »

Sometimes, people do set up Christian theocracies. The theocracy of Massachusetts that the Puritans set up was a major inspiration behind Roger Williams' idea of separating church from state, and why that idea ended up in the Rhode Island constitution before Thomas Jefferson adopted it into Virginia's.

That was a long time ago, and there is no proof of any Christian church advocating for anything like that now. We need to keep our arguments relevent. There is enuff bad history for all of us to go around, and yes, we always need to study history so as not to repeat it (when it is bad).

If I was a member of a church that started teaching the transformation of our country into a theocracy, I, and all others like me, would be out the door. We would not sleep for 20 years in that kind of church, and then deny we didn't know what they were teaching.

If anyone has proof of Santorum wanting to convert our country into a theocracy, please come forward and present it, because I would want to know.
 
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« Reply #289 on: Feb 24, 2012, 10:01PM »

http://www.brucegourley.com/christiannation/theocracy.htm

They are out there, folks. Don't have to look too far to find them, either. Scary.
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« Reply #290 on: Feb 24, 2012, 10:06PM »

Scary?
More like, Baloney.
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« Reply #291 on: Feb 25, 2012, 02:14AM »

Scary?
More like, Baloney.


None so blind as those who will not see.

You know how you boil a frog?  It's the same way into a Dictatorship or a Theocracy.  It happens gradually.

The people who it affects least are the last to realize it.
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« Reply #292 on: Feb 25, 2012, 08:43AM »

The people who it affects least are the last to realize it.

And those who are into it tend to never see it for what it is, instead gradually shifting their boundaries of right and wrong to accommodate.
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« Reply #293 on: Feb 25, 2012, 06:36PM »

Iran is ruled by a theocracy.  As was Afghanistan.

Nice analysis.
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« Reply #294 on: Feb 25, 2012, 07:32PM »

There are people who are trying to drive America that way and Santorum is clearly one of them.  The C Street gang (aka "The Fellowship") is heavily involved in the "Taliban like" undertakings stateside.  They are trying to roll back the social clock by hundreds of years wherever they can.  For example, they are working tirelessly in Uganda to get laws passed making homosexuality a crime that can be punished by death.

They would do the exact same thing here if they could get away with it -- and if we don't fight them every step of the way, they will. What they do is exactly what Santorum is talking about.  It is not something of idle speculation.  It is well documented.
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« Reply #295 on: Feb 25, 2012, 07:50PM »

There are people who are trying to drive America that way and Santorum is clearly one of them.  The C Street gang (aka "The Fellowship") is heavily involved in the "Taliban like" undertakings stateside.  They are trying to roll back the social clock by hundreds of years wherever they can.  For example, they are working tirelessly in Uganda to get laws passed making homosexuality a crime that can be punished by death.

They would do the exact same thing here if they could get away with it -- and if we don't fight them every step of the way, they will. What they do is exactly what Santorum is talking about.  It is not something of idle speculation.  It is well documented.
Paranoia?
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« Reply #296 on: Feb 25, 2012, 08:01PM »

Paranoia?
Everything I said is factual.  Go look it up.  Go look at the laws The Fellowship has been working to pass in Uganda.

You will find that they now disown those laws, but they only took that position after it was exposed how involved they were in this project.  The death penalty law was within a couple of days of enactment when The Fellowship withdrew their "public" support.
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« Reply #297 on: Feb 25, 2012, 09:39PM »

Everything I said is factual.  Go look it up.  Go look at the laws The Fellowship has been working to pass in Uganda.

You will find that they now disown those laws, but they only took that position after it was exposed how involved they were in this project.  The death penalty law was within a couple of days of enactment when The Fellowship withdrew their "public" support.
And in the US, which is what we were talking about in the first place, ?
If it can happen in Uganda it can happen anywhere, I guess.  Yeah, RIGHT.
Put the conspiracy comics down and try and get back to reality.  What is your main source of news now the the "Weekly World News" has closed down?
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« Reply #298 on: Feb 26, 2012, 05:13AM »

And in the US, which is what we were talking about in the first place, ?
If it can happen in Uganda it can happen anywhere, I guess.  Yeah, RIGHT.
Put the conspiracy comics down and try and get back to reality.  What is your main source of news now the the "Weekly World News" has closed down?

I would strongly suggest you read a novel by Sinclair Lewis called "It Can't Happen Here".  It shows how a Nazi-like government could be established in the US.  It was written in the 1930s, hence the Fascist orientation.
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« Reply #299 on: Feb 26, 2012, 06:49AM »

And in the US, which is what we were talking about in the first place, ?
If it can happen in Uganda it can happen anywhere, I guess.  Yeah, RIGHT.
Put the conspiracy comics down and try and get back to reality.  What is your main source of news now the the "Weekly World News" has closed down?
These "Taliban" don't recognize borders.  They may live here, and they most certainly are actively pushing their "personhood" agenda that will make birth control illegal. At the same time they are advancing socially regressive policies anywhere in the world they can.  They figure that the more the Uganda situation seems normal the easier it will be to do the same thing here.  It is the same people doing the same things worldwide.  And they have been at it for a very long time. 

Our "Taliban" is relentless.  So far, we have been able to push back within the USA.  We're winning on gay rights.  We're losing on control of our reproductive decisions.
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