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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Those whacky gun owners at it again....
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lethargicllama7

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« Reply #580 on: Apr 01, 2012, 02:15PM »

Gang members are probably not well trained in the use of firearms.

Are you?
Absolutely, I am. I've been spending years shooting, taken many classes, and learned from people who make firearms. I know how to clean my weapons and I know the right ammunition I should be using for certain situations. Also, that is exactly why gang members are dangerous with their firearms, because they do not follow the 4 safety rules of firearms.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #581 on: Apr 01, 2012, 02:20PM »

Byron, please understand.

I know it is possible to properly store firearms.

I know it is possible to learn to use them properly.  The Military does this to anybody who goes through their operation.

But there are people who aren't trained in use.  And there are people who improperly store firearms.  This is what I worry about.

Incidentally, there is another instance that helped create my negative focus on guns.  Some 30 years ago my wife had to disarm a student in her High School.  He had brought his brother's police service revolver to school to "show off".  This is not evidence of responsible gun ownership.

I do not have a problem with a person who is properly trained and responsible owning a firearm.  I do not have a problem with someone going out into the woods to shoot animals for food.  I do not have a problem with someone using a firearm for target shooting, skeets or paper.

You can argue your clean record from now until we both get left behind from the Rapture (and even after).  But you can't change the fact that there are some people who get guns who shouldn't.  While they may very well be the minority, they are the LOUD minority who spoil it for the rest.  Like the White bigots who join the TEA Party or the Black Panthers who join the Left.  These folks generally give the rest a bad rep.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #582 on: Apr 01, 2012, 02:34PM »


Since the left believe the proper use of the Commerce Clause in the Constitution is to use the power of Congress of force private citizens to buy a product through compulsory legislation, the next Republican Congress and President should pass a bill making everyone buy a firearm. All you on the left would be forced to purchase a gun whether you want it or not. If you do not, you will be fined and possibly imprisoned. We can call it "HestonCare". It will have legal precedent if ObamaCare is upheld.
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« Reply #583 on: Apr 01, 2012, 02:54PM »

Since the left believe the proper use of the Commerce Clause in the Constitution is to use the power of Congress of force private citizens to buy a product through compulsory legislation, the next Republican Congress and President should pass a bill making everyone buy a firearm. All you on the left would be forced to purchase a gun whether you want it or not. If you do not, you will be fined and possibly imprisoned. We can call it "HestonCare". It will have legal precedent if ObamaCare is upheld.
Good!
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« Reply #584 on: Apr 01, 2012, 02:55PM »

Since the left believe the proper use of the Commerce Clause in the Constitution is to use the power of Congress of force private citizens to buy a product through compulsory legislation, the next Republican Congress and President should pass a bill making everyone buy a firearm. All you on the left would be forced to purchase a gun whether you want it or not. If you do not, you will be fined and possibly imprisoned. We can call it "HestonCare". It will have legal precedent if ObamaCare is upheld.

You are really not asking for something new.  George Washington required all able bodied men to purchase a musket and ball so they could be part of a Militia to protect the Nation.  This in 1789.

Now do you really want everybody (including me) to own a firearm?  Even if I can "accidentally" shoot you? Evil
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« Reply #585 on: Apr 01, 2012, 03:42PM »

Byron, please understand.
 
I know it is possible to properly store firearms.
 
I know it is possible to learn to use them properly.  The Military does this to anybody who goes through their operation.
But you give the impression of a strong bias that minimizes those positive possibilities (for example, though I do recommend training it doesn't require much at all in order to wield a gun effectively) combined with a strong reluctance to admit them (instead of staying with the contrary arguments you've raised above, you've now abandoned them in order to offer your reasonableness credentials). I think that's worthy of some consideration.
 
But there are people who aren't trained in use.  And there are people who improperly store firearms.  This is what I worry about.
Yeah, and there's a valid concern there, which I make a point of acknowledging pretty frequently.
 
You can argue your clean record from now until we both get left behind from the Rapture (and even after).
When have I argued my own clean record? It's not about me, and it shouldn't be about you. My experience is representative only of the more conscientious and fairly well trained gun owners/users, and your experience is with some considerably less conscientious and untrained owners/users. Neither of us should base our positions primarily on our personal experience. Our experience can inform our research, but we have to do some homework if we really want to understand the sociology and criminology of the actual sociopolitical issue at hand (rather than the issue as it pertains to us).
 
But you can't change the fact that there are some people who get guns who shouldn't.
One of the main problems I point out regularly, yeah.
 
While they may very well be the minority, they are the LOUD minority who spoil it for the rest.  Like the White bigots who join the TEA Party or the Black Panthers who join the Left.  These folks generally give the rest a bad rep.
Only due to the intellectual irresponsibility of those who are considering the issue uncritically--jumping at affirmations of prejudices and ignoring the information that contradicts them (poor confirmation bias control). That's why I use the term "wingnut" to separate the problem children from among their associates who aren't the problem (and point that out more than I should have to). I criticize "wingnuts" and often point out that I'd like to see the more reasonable conservatives take the spotlight from them. You seem to only reluctantly acknowledge that distinction regarding guns though.
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« Reply #586 on: Apr 01, 2012, 08:34PM »

Does Al Sharpton run NBC now?
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/nbc-trayvon-investigation/2012/04/01/id/434455
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« Reply #587 on: Apr 02, 2012, 10:01AM »

very interesting 7 page article from the NY TIMES:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?pagewanted=1&partner=rss&emc=rss?
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« Reply #588 on: Apr 02, 2012, 11:46AM »


Interesting article.
 
The Crux:
Quote
The Sanford police have said that once Mr. Zimmerman declared that he had shot Trayvon in the chest in self-defense, they were barred from arresting him by the state's now-famous Stand Your Ground law, the broadest protection of self-defense in the country. It immediately requires law enforcement officials to prove that a suspect did not act in self-defense, and sets the case on a slow track.
 
Angela B. Corey, the state attorney for the Jacksonville area who has been appointed special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case, said that the controversial 2005 law has changed the rules for prosecutors. Making arrests, filing charges and securing convictions are more difficult and time consuming. Now, she said, "there is a different standard."
 
Ms. Corey said her office has handled hundreds of these self-defense cases — at least three or four every month. The law constantly challenges the authorities, with people citing it for conflicts like bar fights and road rage. "We've lost Stand Your Ground motions that in my experience showed the shooter should not have shot," she said. "Stand Your Ground needs a second look."
 
But Mr. Crump and Natalie Jackson, the lawyers for Trayvon's family, said that the law does not preclude the police from properly investigating a homicide: collecting evidence, thoroughly interviewing the suspect and aggressively questioning witnesses — much of which, they maintained, did not occur in the death of Trayvon Martin.

I think Zimmerman's account of the confrontation is suspect, but not clearly so--enough to warrant investigation beyond what the FL version of SYG apparently permits, though that may be clarified and/or changed. As pretty much always though, it's not as clear cut either way as many would like to believe. It's easier to understand the bias and lack of objectivity from the victim's community (they have a corpse where a kid used to be, after all), but that doesn't give license for revenge, whether the homicide was justifiable or not.
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« Reply #589 on: Apr 02, 2012, 12:05PM »


  that may be clarified and/or changed. 


Don't expect any common sense or rational response from Florida.
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« Reply #590 on: Apr 02, 2012, 12:12PM »

Don't expect any common sense or rational response from Florida.

Well, I seriously doubt either side will let it go, so this one should at least be petitioned to the SCOTUS, regardless.
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« Reply #591 on: Apr 02, 2012, 12:26PM »


Well, I seriously doubt either side will let it go, so this one should at least be petitioned to the SCOTUS, regardless.

Issues like this shouldn't be decided by unelected officials. :)
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« Reply #592 on: Apr 02, 2012, 12:32PM »

What saddens me the most about this story is how the media and the black community is exploiting it for political gain.


Over 100 black men are victims of murder every week being killed by other black men. Where is the outrage? They make it out to sound like the biggest problem facing young black men are white people with guns when the crime statistics clearly point out they should be much more afraid of other black people. All murders are horrible, but when Obama uses it for political gain and Jessie Jackson/Al Sharpton use it to fill thier wallets, it is shameful.
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« Reply #593 on: Apr 06, 2012, 05:28AM »

Off topic or not?  You be the judge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17636785
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« Reply #594 on: Apr 06, 2012, 06:37AM »

good idea  muzzle loaders   --everybody  needs one  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You are really not asking for something new.  George Washington required all able bodied men to purchase a musket and ball so they could be part of a Militia to protect the Nation.  This in 1789.

Now do you really want everybody (including me) to own a firearm?  Even if I can "accidentally" shoot you? Evil
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« Reply #595 on: Apr 06, 2012, 07:14AM »

good idea  muzzle loaders   --everybody  needs one  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I prefer muzzles.  Especially on those with logorrhea! Evil
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #596 on: Apr 06, 2012, 07:28AM »

I prefer muzzles.  Especially on those with logorrhea! Evil

That's just not fair, Bruce!
 
If you use words like that you're gonna force the conservative wingnuts in here to either bail or learn what a dictionary is, and for wingnuts (particularly conservative wingnuts), that's gonna be pretty traumatic.
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« Reply #597 on: Apr 06, 2012, 08:02AM »

Well, we had another example of a responsible gun owner at Oikos University a couple of days ago...
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #598 on: Apr 06, 2012, 08:36AM »

I prefer muzzles.  Especially on those with logorrhea! Evil

OK…but what about excessive Eva Longoria?  :)
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« Reply #599 on: Apr 06, 2012, 08:52AM »

OK…but what about excessive Eva Longoria?  :)


She's gained weight?  Say it isn't so!
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