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Author Topic: State Rape?  (Read 5130 times)
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Russ White

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« on: Feb 18, 2012, 06:05AM »

http://jezebel.com/5886102/law-forcing-abortion-seekers-to-have-vaginal-probe-totally-ok-since-theyve-already-been-penetrated

Small government, my ass!!! Virginia is on the verge of passing a law which requires a woman seeking to exercise her rights under the constitution to be forcefully vaginally pentrated before she can access reproductive health care. In any other situation, this would be considered rape. If the governor of Va. signs this law, he is signing his resignation letter from political life. He has been listed as a possible VP candidate. I can see the bumper stickers now: "Romney/ Rapist 2012," "Republican Ticket: Man on Dog/ The Rapist: 2012." God spare us from zealotry!!!
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 18, 2012, 06:07AM »

http://jezebel.com/5886102/law-forcing-abortion-seekers-to-have-vaginal-probe-totally-ok-since-theyve-already-been-penetrated

Small government, my ass!!! Virginia is on the verge of passing a law which requires a woman seeking to exercise her rights under the constitution to be forcefully vaginally pentrated before she can access reproductive health care. In any other situation, this would be considered rape. If the governor of Va. signs this law, he is signing his resignation letter from political life. He has been listed as a possible VP candidate. I can see the bumper stickers now: "Romney/ Rapist 2012," "Republican Ticket: Man on Dog/ The Rapist: 2012." God spare us from zealotry!!!

Did you approve of the TSA raping people in order fly? I don't remember.
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« Reply #2 on: Feb 18, 2012, 06:17AM »

Did you approve of the TSA raping people in order fly? I don't remember.

Um, no, I did and do not, and that is merely assault. It doesn't quite rise to the level of full blown state imposed rape.
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 18, 2012, 06:37AM »

Um, no, I did and do not, and that is merely assault. It doesn't quite rise to the level of full blown state imposed rape.

You mean 'merely sexual assault'?

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« Reply #4 on: Feb 18, 2012, 06:49AM »

had problem linking to original article, here is their source:

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/02/virginia_ultrasound_law_women_who_want_an_abortion_will_be_forcibly_penetrated_for_no_medical_reason.single.html

the procedure does require an bodily invasion, which, with a jury deciding the improper intent being present could under modern sexual assault definitions would constitute "sexual assault".

since this is only required in the first trimester, it is another deliberate attempt, see "personhood" laws, for another to force a judicial review of Roe v. Wade.

since DD brought it up, no example of search by the TSA or other law enforcement agencies, short of a body cavity search comes close.

come on dd, bring us examples of complaints of the TSA or other law enforcement agencies doing a body cavity search.

some of us are waiting, some of us aren't, others are bored already.

jmvho, ymmv
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 18, 2012, 07:03AM »

Sly, does there haave to be a 'cavity penetration' to define sexual assault? Or, are there other criteria? Just asking.....
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 18, 2012, 07:06AM »

Aaaah, America. Land of the Free....
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 18, 2012, 07:18AM »

Aaaah, America. Land of the Free....
Yes, America is kinda loopy right now. Regarding abortions, the 'loss of freedoms' gets tossed around a lot whereas regarding almost all other issues, ...... not so much. At least by the very same people.....
Yes, we are very loopy. :)
 
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 18, 2012, 07:47AM »

NEWS FLASH
Abortions done after nine weeks require vaginal penetration.  Done before 9 weeks may not require penetration.
BTW "exercising your reproductive rights is a pc way of saying abortion.  When did the word abortion lose favor?
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« Reply #9 on: Feb 18, 2012, 07:58AM »

NEWS FLASH
...  When did the word abortion lose favor?

When Yahoos like you started treating it like it was a crime against your manhood Evil
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« Reply #10 on: Feb 18, 2012, 08:33AM »

When Yahoos like you started treating it like it was a crime against your manhood Evil
Crime against my manhood?   Don't know  no, it's just killing an innocent human being. 
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« Reply #11 on: Feb 18, 2012, 08:34AM »

no, it's just killing an innocent human being. 

No, it's just removing a blob of unwanted tissue.
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« Reply #12 on: Feb 18, 2012, 08:54AM »

Crime against my manhood?   Don't know  no, it's just killing an innocent human being. 

OK.  So we should make removing a cancer tumor a crime.  After all, it has as much sentinence as a blastocyst.

If you want to enforce a one-child policy with abortion like in China, I might take that seriously.  No.  You are just being a busybody.
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« Reply #13 on: Feb 18, 2012, 09:02AM »

OK.  So we should make removing a cancer tumor a crime.  After all, it has as much sentinence as a blastocyst.
 
If you want to enforce a one-child policy with abortion like in China, I might take that seriously.  No.  You are just being a busybody.

Not to mention a huge number of pregnancies are naturally aborted (by God if you believe there's a god and it's responsible for the creation of nature). Anti-abortion fanatics never seem to want to address that little detail. Hell, I don't think I've seen or heard any of them even acknowledge it.
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« Reply #14 on: Feb 18, 2012, 09:34AM »

No, it's just removing a blob of unwanted tissue.

I know some people that are still a 'blob of unwanted tissue'.  :)
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« Reply #15 on: Feb 18, 2012, 09:44AM »

Sly, does there haave to be a 'cavity penetration' to define sexual assault? Or, are there other criteria? Just asking.....

you asked:

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32369#1

Quote
Definition
Sexual assault takes many forms including attacks such as rape or attempted rape, as well as any unwanted sexual contact or threats. Usually a sexual assault occurs when someone touches any part of another person's body in a sexual way, even through clothes, without that person's consent. Some types of sexual acts which fall under the category of sexual assault include forced sexual intercourse (rape), sodomy (oral or anal sexual acts), child molestation, incest, fondling and attempted rape. Sexual assault in any form is often a devastating crime. Assailants can be strangers, acquaintances, friends, or family members. Assailants commit sexual assault by way of violence, threats, coercion, manipulation, pressure or tricks. Whatever the circumstances, no one asks or deserves to be sexually assaulted.

Overview
In most jurisdictions, the term sexual assault has replaced the term rape in the state statutes. This was done to be more gender-neutral and to cover more specific types of sexual victimization and various levels of coercion. For example, some state codes define Sexual Assault in the First Degree or Aggravated Sexual Assault as physically or psychologically forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration - which has typically been thought of as rape.

Sexual Abuse, Sexual Misconduct, Sodomy, Lascivious Acts, Indecent Contact, and Indecent Exposure are all examples of possible sexual assault charges. Basically, almost any sexual behavior a person has not consented to that causes that person to feel uncomfortable, frightened or intimidated is included in the sexual assault category.

The law generally assumes that a person does not consent to sexual conduct if he or she is forced, threatened or is unconscious, drugged, a minor, developmentally disabled, chronically mentally ill, or believe they are undergoing a medical procedure. Some examples of sexual assault include:

Someone putting their finger, tongue, mouth, penis or an object in or on your vagina, penis or anus when you don't want them to;
Someone touching, fondling, kissing or making any unwanted contact with your body;
Someone forcing you to perform oral sex or forcing you to receive oral sex;
Someone forcing you to masturbate, forcing you to masturbate them, or fondling and touching you;
Someone forcing you to look at sexually explicit material or forcing you to pose for sexually explicit pictures; and
A doctor, nurse, or other health care professional giving you an unnecessary internal examination or touching your sexual organs in an unprofessional, unwarranted and inappropriate manner.

the above definition seems to leave out an important element of the criminal laws that I am familar with:  the necessary intent of the actor to either arouse his/her sexual desires or the sexual desires of the victim.

this is what would make the actions of the TSA agent, the leo personnel exempt from the crime of attempted sexual assault and perhaps the procedure of the medical personel under the original item in question, would a jury find that such an intent existed?  If not, there is no crime.
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« Reply #16 on: Feb 18, 2012, 12:09PM »


Not to mention a huge number of pregnancies are naturally aborted (by God if you believe there's a god and it's responsible for the creation of nature). Anti-abortion fanatics never seem to want to address that little detail. Hell, I don't think I've seen or heard any of them even acknowledge it.
Umm.  Whats there to address?  Spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) happen all the time.  It's perfectly normal.  Sometimes for a reason and sometimes the reason is unknown.     :/
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« Reply #17 on: Feb 18, 2012, 12:19PM »

No, it's just removing a blob of unwanted tissue.
I thought you were a scientist?  That blob has DNA specific DNA that will allow the blob to differentiate into a human being.  The blastocyst becomes an embryo after it is implanted into the uterus?  Now the blob is differentiating as the different cells now take on different functions.  By 5 weeks the brain, spinal cord, digestive tract and heart begin to develop.   At 8 weeks there are arms legs and fingers and lungs are staring to develop.  10 weeks facial features.  Baby is moving and sucking at weeks 15-18. 
So women are to think of the baby in their belly as a blob?  Makes it easier to dispose of? Like a bad piece of meat in the frig.  Nice.
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« Reply #18 on: Feb 18, 2012, 12:21PM »

OK.  So we should make removing a cancer tumor a crime.  After all, it has as much sentinence as a blastocyst.

If you want to enforce a one-child policy with abortion like in China, I might take that seriously.  No.  You are just being a busybody.
So a cancerous tumor has potential to become a ...what?
One child policy?  Not me.
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« Reply #19 on: Feb 18, 2012, 01:10PM »

I thought you were a scientist?  That blob has DNA specific DNA that will allow the blob to differentiate into a human being.  The blastocyst becomes an embryo after it is implanted into the uterus?  Now the blob is differentiating as the different cells now take on different functions.  By 5 weeks the brain, spinal cord, digestive tract and heart begin to develop.   At 8 weeks there are arms legs and fingers and lungs are staring to develop.  10 weeks facial features.  Baby is moving and sucking at weeks 15-18. 
So women are to think of the baby in their belly as a blob?  Makes it easier to dispose of? Like a bad piece of meat in the frig.  Nice.

I call Red Herring.

First, the cancer cell has DNA also.  If I were clever, I might be able to clone a human from it.

Also, it's generally accepted that abortion after the first trimester (i.e. 12 weeks) is not covered under Roe v. Wade.  In fact, most abortions occur during this period (first trimester).  Abortions like Partial Birth, etc. are extremely rare and only performed when the fetus is not viable and is a danger to the mother.

The most common form of abortion is Dilatation and Curetage (D and C).  It is intended to remove a blastocyst or other large lump as opposed to cutting somebody out, grabbing a fully formed baby, and drowning it in a pot of water (which is what all of you seem to think it is).

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« Reply #20 on: Feb 18, 2012, 02:09PM »

I call Red Herring.

First, the cancer cell has DNA also.  If I were clever, I might be able to clone a human from it.

Also, it's generally accepted that abortion after the first trimester (i.e. 12 weeks) is not covered under Roe v. Wade.  In fact, most abortions occur during this period (first trimester).  Abortions like Partial Birth, etc. are extremely rare and only performed when the fetus is not viable and is a danger to the mother.

The most common form of abortion is Dilatation and Curetage (D and C).  It is intended to remove a blastocyst or other large lump as opposed to cutting somebody out, grabbing a fully formed baby, and drowning it in a pot of water (which is what all of you seem to think it is).


So abortion , if a D&C is used, is vaginalpenetration.  Just like a vaginal ultrasound.  What's the argument?
It's not a blastocyst (only 150 cells up to day 5) once it's implanted.  Now it's an embryo.
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« Reply #21 on: Feb 18, 2012, 02:29PM »

So abortion , if a D&C is used, is vaginalpenetration.  Just like a vaginal ultrasound.  What's the argument? . . .

are you for real  Don't know

further answer is not necessary for those with intelligence to see the facts of day
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« Reply #22 on: Feb 18, 2012, 02:47PM »

So we should make removing a cancer tumor a crime.

So, your point is that a fetus is no different than a tumor. Right?

However, if a cancer tumor is left to its own devices, it will eventually kill the host, and never produces a human baby. Never. Zilch.

But, a fetus, if left to its own devices (not aborted or miscarried), will not kill the host* and does produce a human baby. Yet, you see no difference between the two.  Don't know

(*for the sake of argument, just talking about the normal progression as opposed to the 0.001% abnormal condition, where the unborn baby can kill the host.)
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« Reply #23 on: Feb 18, 2012, 02:49PM »

are you for real  Don't know

further answer is not necessary for those with intelligence to see the facts of day

So the abortion is ok but not the ultrasound?  Do you have enough intelligence to comprehend?
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« Reply #24 on: Feb 18, 2012, 02:50PM »

...
But, a fetus, if left to its own devices (not aborted or miscarried), will not kill the host* and does produce a human baby. Yet, you see no difference between the two.  Don't know
...

I do see a difference between the two.  I also see a difference between a fetus in a member of my family and a fetus in some woman I wouldn't know if I ran over her with my car.

I can understand wanting to deal with the family member.  I don't believe I have any legal standing dictating my views to the stranger.  And neither do you.
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« Reply #25 on: Feb 18, 2012, 03:29PM »

So the abortion is ok but not the ultrasound?  Do you have enough intelligence to comprehend?


yes, under current law, an abortion in the first trimester is "okay" to use your term, I would say, "legal" instead of "okay", and none of my business

the ultrasound ordered by the state before a woman can exercise her right to choose an abortion during the first trimester, if the proposal became state law , would not be "okay" as it is in direct contradiction of the existing rights of the woman under the current interpretation of the US Constitution.

can you comprehend that?
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« Reply #26 on: Feb 18, 2012, 03:52PM »

I do see a difference between the two.  I also see a difference between a fetus in a member of my family and a fetus in some woman I wouldn't know if I ran over her with my car.

I can understand wanting to deal with the family member.  I don't believe I have any legal standing dictating my views to the stranger.  And neither do you.
The woman should be advised of what is going to happen to her and the baby and how it happens.  Just like with any other medical procedure.
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« Reply #27 on: Feb 18, 2012, 03:55PM »


yes, under current law, an abortion in the first trimester is "okay" to use your term, I would say, "legal" instead of "okay", and none of my business

the ultrasound ordered by the state before a woman can exercise her right to choose an abortion during the first trimester, if the proposal became state law , would not be "okay" as it is in direct contradiction of the existing rights of the woman under the current interpretation of the US Constitution.

can you comprehend that?
You missed the point, again.  The issue that Russ has a problem with is penetration of a vaginal ultrasound.  However to do an abortion you may need a D&C.  (dilation and curettage) of which I have seen around 30-50.  That requires penetration of the curette after dilation of the cervix which is past the opening of the vagina.
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« Reply #28 on: Feb 18, 2012, 04:08PM »

I call Red Herring.

Better to just cut to the chase and call selectively regressed infant mind (i.e. blatant intellectual dishonesty).
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« Reply #29 on: Feb 18, 2012, 04:14PM »

You missed the point, again.  The issue that Russ has a problem with is penetration of a vaginal ultrasound. . . .

I, for one, am wise enough to let Russ speak for himself.  He is quite capable of expressing his opinion

do you have pegged it correctly?

time may tell.
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« Reply #30 on: Feb 18, 2012, 04:41PM »

I, for one, am wise enough to let Russ speak for himself.  He is quite capable of expressing his opinion

do you have pegged it correctly?

time may tell.
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Small government, my ass!!! Virginia is on the verge of passing a law which requires a woman seeking to exercise her rights under the constitution to be forcefully vaginally pentrated before she can access reproductive health care. " 
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« Reply #31 on: Feb 18, 2012, 04:42PM »


Better to just cut to the chase and call selectively regressed infant mind (i.e. blatant intellectual dishonesty).
Don't you have something to do?  Didn't I suggest something for you to do?
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« Reply #32 on: Feb 18, 2012, 04:58PM »

Don't you have something to do?  Didn't I suggest something for you to do?

I think he was talking about visiting a dental clinic near Seattle and extracting all the teeth of the proprietor without any anesthesia Evil
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« Reply #33 on: Feb 18, 2012, 05:17PM »

I think he was talking about visiting a dental clinic near Seattle and extracting all the teeth of the proprietor without any anesthesia Evil

Wouldn't want to dissuade him from exposing the true colors of the Wingnut set, actually ... though I'm not sure there's any point to that, since almost no one seems to accept the painfully obvious implications for some reason.
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« Reply #34 on: Feb 18, 2012, 09:59PM »


Wouldn't want to dissuade him from exposing the true colors of the Wingnut set, actually ... though I'm not sure there's any point to that, since almost no one seems to accept the painfully obvious implications for some reason.
Translation;
"Uh blah blah blah.  Blahblahblah.  Blah!"
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« Reply #35 on: Feb 18, 2012, 10:13PM »

I think he was talking about visiting a dental clinic near Seattle and extracting all the teeth of the proprietor without any anesthesia Evil
I'd look forward to that.  Seriously.  Way cool
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« Reply #36 on: Feb 19, 2012, 05:55AM »

This is the equivalent to the State of Washington requiring that before you  replace a cap in a patients mouth, you first  do a pocket reduction on every tooth. whether the patient needs it or agrees to let you do it.
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« Reply #37 on: Feb 19, 2012, 12:20PM »

I thought you were a scientist? 

Yep. This is nothing whatsoever to do with science.

Quote
So women are to think of the baby in their belly as a blob?  Makes it easier to dispose of? Like a bad piece of meat in the frig.  Nice.

That's exactly what it is. Up until that group of cells can survive by itself outside the woman's body, it is simply part of her body. The body itself may decide to dispose of it. Only the advance of medical facilities has enabled extremely premature babies to survive and, unfortunately, can also ensure the survival of premature babies which, having had insufficient time in the womb, will never become viable human beings. You can even enable the survival, if only temporarily, of babies which have developed without brains. Revolting.

Human beings have no particular right to survive. They are just animals which, in many parts of the world, are dispatched by other animals (often their neighbours) with no care or thought whatsoever. Indeed, many Americans will blast away at their neighbours and feel themselves completely justified in doing so, and are also happy to see them disposed of by the prison system or in wars, or to let them die because they can't afford medical care. There are far too many human beings in the world anyway, so why so much fuss about a few unwanted blobs of tissue?

And what has ANY of this to do with whether things can be stuffed up inside a woman with no medical justification for the procedure?
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« Reply #38 on: Feb 19, 2012, 01:40PM »


babies which have developed without brains.


They're called Republicans (Sorry, that was just too big a softball not to take a swing at!), or. at least, that blue collar, less than high-school diploma wing of the party that votes Republican, anyway!
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« Reply #39 on: Feb 19, 2012, 01:43PM »

They're called Republicans (Sorry, that was just too big a softball not to take a swing at

Yeah, but you missed!  Amazed
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« Reply #40 on: Feb 19, 2012, 02:24PM »

They're called Republicans (Sorry, that was just too big a softball not to take a swing at!)
Yeah, but you missed!  Amazed

He's right, Russ.
 
They're TEA Party/hardliner types.
 
The adult Republicans have just lost control of the nursery ... for now.
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« Reply #41 on: Feb 19, 2012, 02:58PM »

Yep. This is nothing whatsoever to do with science.

That's exactly what it is. Up until that group of cells can survive by itself outside the woman's body, it is simply part of her body. The body itself may decide to dispose of it. Only the advance of medical facilities has enabled extremely premature babies to survive and, unfortunately, can also ensure the survival of premature babies which, having had insufficient time in the womb, will never become viable human beings. You can even enable the survival, if only temporarily, of babies which have developed without brains. Revolting.

Human beings have no particular right to survive. They are just animals which, in many parts of the world, are dispatched by other animals (often their neighbours) with no care or thought whatsoever. Indeed, many Americans will blast away at their neighbours and feel themselves completely justified in doing so, and are also happy to see them disposed of by the prison system or in wars, or to let them die because they can't afford medical care. There are far too many human beings in the world anyway, so why so much fuss about a few unwanted blobs of tissue?

And what has ANY of this to do with whether things can be stuffed up inside a woman with no medical justification for the procedure?
Ultrasounds, abortions, pregnancy and mental health have nothing to do with science?  Maybe not in England but definitely in the rest of the world.  Don't know
So it's a blob until birth?  Trying to understand the new developmental biology.  :/
Why all the fuss about really old people?  Lets knock them off too.  And there are too many trumpet players in the world so we'll kill them too.  Evil
A few abortions?  How about 50 million a year in the world.
1 every 24 seconds in the US or about 1.3 million a year.
How many Itzak Perlman's or Sir George Solti's or Mozart's or Barak Obama's are aborted each year?  Or scientists that could cure cancer or heart disease?  We'll never know.
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« Reply #42 on: Feb 19, 2012, 03:41PM »

...
1 every 24 seconds in the US or about 1.3 million a year.
How many Itzak Perlman's or Sir George Solti's or Mozart's or Barak Obama's are aborted each year?  Or scientists that could cure cancer or heart disease?  We'll never know.

Or how many Muslim terrorists, serial rapists, muggers, murderers, and Mafia Hitmen?

It works both ways, buddy.
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« Reply #43 on: Feb 19, 2012, 04:30PM »

Or how many Muslim terrorists, serial rapists, muggers, murderers, and Mafia Hitmen?

It works both ways, buddy.
True. But I'm an optimist.  :D
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« Reply #44 on: Feb 19, 2012, 05:32PM »

Or how many Muslim terrorists, serial rapists, muggers, murderers, and Mafia Hitmen?
 
It works both ways, buddy.

Yeah, if you're gonna use that one you have to consider the odds, if you're honest ... so right Wingnuts can freely use it, I suppose, without recognizing how transparently disingenuous and feeble it really is.
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« Reply #45 on: Feb 20, 2012, 02:27AM »

So it's a blob until birth?  Trying to understand the new developmental biology.  :/

You aren't talking science. You are intimating that a God-created "soul" suddenly appears when two cells fuse (conception itself being a random act, often occurring through ignorance, thoughtlessness or cruelty). I dispute this and maintain that, until the foetus is viable, i.e. can survive outside its mother's body, it is merely a PART of her body. I also dispute your concept of human beings as being "special". The overwhelming majority of the human race, including me and you, is an enormous, sprawling, ugly, selfish, mindless, destructive waste of space and resources, and the most terrible plague on an otherwise beautiful and innocent planet.
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« Reply #46 on: Feb 20, 2012, 04:45AM »

I might even expand on your statement and say that "soul" is learned over the first 2 decades of life after birth.

ronkny, you have a quote from Reagan about babies and government.  You should think about the implication.  How can you say that a baby has anything except a large appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other?
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« Reply #47 on: Feb 20, 2012, 05:02AM »

You aren't talking science ...

Clearly, but how do you know? You're keen to accuse me of "claiming to own a topic", or some such, when I recognize you're doing much the same thing. I've actually had to explain to you, multiple times (until the benefit of doubt was ground into oblivion), how those who understand a topic can tell when those who don't try to ignore that little detail and freely opine away in obvious ignorance.
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« Reply #48 on: Feb 20, 2012, 05:07AM »

That has got to be the ultimate post in this benighted section.

BvB supporting ronkny because I made a post refuting his obnoxious and reactionary comments.

I didn't realise you despised me THAT much, Byron. :(
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« Reply #49 on: Feb 20, 2012, 05:08AM »

Byron supporting ronkny ...

I'm pretty sure you can read better than that.
 
 ... though perhaps not when your emotions have hijacked your intellect.
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« Reply #50 on: Feb 20, 2012, 05:10AM »

I think intellect plus emotions make a complete person and therefore should not be separated.

Ask Mr Spock.

This is what enables me to appreciate you as an intelligent and reasoning human being, Byron, but still want to knee you in the proverbials....
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« Reply #51 on: Feb 20, 2012, 06:11AM »

I think intellect plus emotions make a complete person and therefore should not be separated.
 
Ask Mr Spock.
And if your emotions are out of control they're a serious intellectual handicap ... ask Mr. Spock about that. Or, better, consult the Interwebs. Wikipedia is a good springboard, and for you, Google Scholar is useful for more scholarly material (not that I suspect you aren't already wise to them ... the Peanut Gallery is listening).
 
This is what enables me to appreciate you as an intelligent and reasoning human being, Byron, but still want to knee you in the proverbials....
Yes, you do seem to have issues with uncontrollably jerky knees.
 
It's also what prevents you, pretty completely now, apparently, from dealing with pretty much anything I write, rather than the straw men it seems you can't help but see instead.
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« Reply #52 on: Feb 20, 2012, 08:18AM »

This is the equivalent to the State of Washington requiring that before you  replace a cap in a patients mouth, you are first  required do a pocket reduction on every tooth. whether the patient needs it or agrees to let you do it.

And, back on topic, still waiting for the dentist to explain how this would be different than the Va. law.
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« Reply #53 on: Feb 20, 2012, 08:58AM »

In this one the Catholics have it right and the Protestants are just flailing about rhetorically in protest.
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« Reply #54 on: Feb 20, 2012, 11:43AM »

It's also what prevents you, pretty completely now, apparently, from dealing with pretty much anything I write, rather than the straw men it seems you can't help but see instead.

Looking back over our shared history, Byron, I think you started it.

No I didn't.

Yes you did.

No I didn't.

Y... oh, never mind.
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« Reply #55 on: Feb 20, 2012, 12:15PM »

Looking back over our shared history, Byron, I think you started it.
 
No I didn't.
 
Yes you did.
 
No I didn't.
 
Y... oh, never mind.

Heh ... I may very well have started it, though I clearly have a very different concept of it, and have mostly ignored it in recent years, generally only delving into it when my name is mentioned or when it lands too near me to avoid the offense to my personal sensibilities.
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« Reply #56 on: Feb 20, 2012, 12:22PM »

And, back on topic, still waiting for the dentist to explain how this would be different than the Va. law.
"This is the equivalent to the State of Washington requiring that before you  replace a cap in a patients mouth, you are first  required do a pocket reduction on every tooth. whether the patient needs it or agrees to let you do it. "
That would be required if the patient had advance periodontal disease.  You don't place a "cap" on a tooth that has a poor foundation.  And since Perio disease in one pocket can affect the entire mouth, you make sure that no other areas have disease.
An ultrasound is diagnostic.  Perio pocket reduction therapy is  treatment.  
Nice try though.
Doing an ultrasound would let the patient see what they are about to kill so they totally understand the consequences.  Why a vaginal vs an abdominal, I don't know.
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« Reply #57 on: Feb 20, 2012, 01:11PM »

That has got to be the ultimate post in this benighted section.

BvB supporting ronkny because I made a post refuting his obnoxious and reactionary comments.

I didn't realise you despised me THAT much, Byron. :(
"BvB supporting ronkny because I made a post refuting his obnoxious and reactionary comments."

I think I disagree or agree.  Most of what he writes is unintelligible by design or by a poor education.  I don't know which.  Don't be fooled by long run on sentences, hanging participles, fragmented sentences and other blatant grammatical errors that are so puzzling, one could come to the conclusion that his intelligence is beyond reproach and We are just too stupid to comprehend.  It's not.
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« Reply #58 on: Feb 22, 2012, 02:03PM »

The Virginia Gov now wants the bill changed:

http://www.governor.virginia.gov/news/viewRelease.cfm?id=1148

Quote
. . . Thus, having looked at the current proposal, I believe there is no need to direct by statute that further invasive ultrasound procedures be done. Mandating an invasive procedure in order to give informed consent is not a proper role for the state. No person should be directed to undergo an invasive procedure by the state, without their consent, as a precondition to another medical procedure.

For this reason, I have recommended to the General Assembly a series of amendments to this bill. I am requesting that the General Assembly amend this bill to explicitly state that no woman in Virginia will have to undergo a transvaginal ultrasound involuntarily. I am asking the General Assembly to state in this legislation that only a transabdominal, or external, ultrasound will be required to satisfy the requirements to determine gestational age. Should a doctor determine that another form of ultrasound may be necessary to provide the necessary images and information that will be an issue for the doctor and the patient. The government will have no role in that medical decision.

I have requested other amendments that help clarify the purposes of the bill and reflect a better understanding of prevailing medical practices. It is my hope that the members of the General Assembly will act favorably upon these recommendations from our office. We will await their action prior to making any further comments on this matter."
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« Reply #59 on: Feb 23, 2012, 06:01AM »


! ! ! STOP THE PRESSES ! ! !


DIG OUT YOUR CALENDARS AND MARK THIS DAY ! ! !


BRUCE AND I AGREE ON SOMETHING ! ! !


To wit:

I don't believe I have any legal standing dictating my views to the stranger.  And neither do you.

Nunya.


Take out the word "legal" and you have the entire Truth Of The Matter.

Abortion is not the government's business.

Neither is religion, firearm ownership, marriage and a host of other activities wherein folks try to force their opinions on everybody else by using "the Law" as a weapon.

Had legislators had the good sense to do their jobs, instead of pursuing personal enrichment, this nonsense would never have seen the light of Congress.


ANY time a law is proposed "for someone's own good," it should be tossed into the trash, immediately.

The result of not doing so is the kind of silliness documented in various places throughout this thread.


 Good!





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« Reply #60 on: Feb 23, 2012, 06:05AM »

Human beings have no particular right to survive.

There is no such thing as a Right to Survive.

Survival is combination of chance and ability.

Ability will increase your chances of survival for a longer period of time, but no one in the history of Man has yet succeeded.


 Good!
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« Reply #61 on: Feb 23, 2012, 06:17AM »

I also dispute your concept of human beings as being "special".

Indisputably the top of the land-based food chain.

That makes them "special."


Quote
The overwhelming majority of the human race, including me and you, is an enormous, sprawling, ugly, selfish, mindless, destructive waste of space and resources, and the most terrible plague on an otherwise beautiful and innocent planet.

More like "Plague of the Moment."

If it were not for humans, some other enormous, sprawling, ugly, selfish, mindless, destructive waste of space and resources would be the most terrible plague on an otherwise beautiful and innocent planet.


By the way, the planet is not innocent.

It merely a chunk of rock.

The state of innocence requires the ability to be guilty and a chunk of rock is neither.


As far as "Nature" being harmonious and pure, that is true, but it is NOT idyllic.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is welcome to leave the protection of human herds and take a look for themselves.


You will soon become a top predator or dead.

 :D
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« Reply #62 on: Feb 23, 2012, 11:38AM »

Ability will increase your chances of survival for a longer period of time, but no one in the history of Man has yet succeeded.
This is my greatest source of anxiety.
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« Reply #63 on: Feb 23, 2012, 12:08PM »






Take out the word "legal" and you have the entire Truth Of The Matter.

Abortion is not the government's business.

Neither is religion, firearm ownership, marriage and a host of other activities wherein folks try to force their opinions on everybody else by using "the Law" as a weapon.


So are you saying that "the law" as it currently exists for abortion/religion/firearm ownership is wrong, because some people don't agree with it? Even though "the law"s are written to protect a portion of the population from having other's views forced on them?

It IS government's business...if there were no laws to separate church & state, this country would be awash in a shambles of McCarthyistic attacks and bigotry; if there were no government regulation of firearm ownership, we would see more of what's happening in Mexico; if there hadn't been R v W, then women, especially poor women, would suffer.
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« Reply #64 on: Feb 24, 2012, 06:21AM »

This is my greatest source of anxiety.

Why?

Without your ability to recognize moving traffic as a deadly peril, you would have stepped off the sidewalk and been run over years ago.

That ability, among many others, has allowed you to survive as long as you have.


You have developed the abilities necessary to survive in your environment.

I see no cause for anxiety - other than dodging idiots who do not obey traffic laws.


 Good!
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« Reply #65 on: Feb 24, 2012, 08:09AM »

So are you saying that "the law" as it currently exists for abortion/religion/firearm ownership is wrong, because some people don't agree with it?

No, not at all.

I am saying the role of the federal government is to pass laws that operate only on an inter-state level.

State laws should only deal with matters that occur on an intra-county/parish level.

County laws should only deal with matters on an inter-city level.

City laws should only deal with matters on an inter-neighborhood level.

Neighborhood laws should only deal with matters affecting the neighborhood, not the personal matters of its citizens.


Any matter that operates on an individual level that affects no one but the individual and his immediate family unit is not within the government's purview.

Abortion, religion, firearms possession, marriage, ethnicity, education and many other issues are individual matters that should never have been addressed by a governing body.


The fact that it not only has been addressed and codified, but deemed a legitimate function of government, is a statement to the sad state of affairs of the education and docile acceptance of tyranny by our citizenry.

The whole idea of decentralized government is to retain the flexibility in societal norms necessary to allow widely varied social groups to retain their identity while providing a framework within which they can comfortably co-exist.


Quote
Even though "the law"s  are written to protect a portion of the population from having other's views forced on them?

Actually, the entire Constitution is a short list of what the government is allowed to do – with vehement restrictions on interfering with an individual’s right to pursue happiness.

The protection of individuals from having the views of others forced upon them is one of the foundations of that document.


Quote
It IS government's business...if there were no laws to separate church & state, this country would be awash in a shambles of McCarthyistic attacks and bigotry;

First, there is no clause in the Constitution that prohibits all interactions between church and state.

The only mention of the subject is a mandate upon Congress that it shall pass no law regarding the establishment of a national religion.

There is no mandate to keep church and state separate, just a restriction prohibiting the state from establishing a religion and forcing everyone to observe it.


Second, no amount of legislation will ever control what happens inside a person’s mind.

Don’t look now, but “McCarthyistic attacks and bigotry” are extant all around you.


Today’s largest “Bigotry Target of the New Century” is anyone of the Muslim faith.

It doesn’t matter that only a small percentage of Muslims pervert their faith to justify violent actions, ALL Muslims are last decade’s “THEM”.


The second largest “Bigotry Target of the New Century” seems to be anyone of Hispanic descent.

It doesn’t matter that only a percentage of Hispanics are in the county illegally, ALL Hispanics are this decade’s “THEM”.


The point, in case anyone missed it, is that you cannot regulate thoughts and bigotry is merely the result of the thought processes (or lack thereof) of short-sighted, opinionated jackasses.


Quote
if there were no government regulation of firearm ownership, we would see more of what's happening in Mexico;

Are you claiming there is no government regulation of firearm ownership in Mexico?

Or, are you claiming that government can effectively control an individual’s determination to commit violence?

You will find that neither is the case.


Quote
if there hadn't been R v W, then women, especially poor women, would suffer.

Again, Roe vs. Wade should never have even been considered.

Abortion is an individual choice that is no business of the government.


Also, the implication that poor women would suffer more than other women is irrelevant.

Individual wealth should not be a concern for governments in establishing policy.


Personally, I disapprove of the use of abortion merely as a primary means of convenient birth control for those too lackadaisical in their approach to family planning.

However, I also consider abortion in those circumstances to be of huge benefit to society as it removes more “stupid” DNA from the gene pool.


So, while I would not approve of it as a personal choice for me, I would not try to impeded anyone else from doing so, because it is none of my damned business what someone else chooses for themselves!

Same goes for the federal government – “Nunya”.


 :)
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« Reply #66 on: Feb 24, 2012, 09:50AM »

Wow, I don't know why your quote came out in such huge font! - makes it look like I was angry or something, which isn't the case...So, sorry for that.

As to your statements,
Quote
I am saying the role of the federal government is to pass laws that operate only on an inter-state level.
This opinion is not addressing the role of the federal government to assure equal rights for all citizens. Period. I see that as flawed logic that would leave huge holes in the interpretation of human rights laws.

Quote
Any matter that operates on an individual level that affects no one but the individual and his immediate family unit is not within the government's purview. Abortion, religion, firearms possession, marriage, ethnicity, education and many other issues are individual matters that should never have been addressed by a governing body.
Seriously? Have you ever studied history? Any one of those issues affect far more than the individual. Far more.

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The fact that it not only has been addressed and codified, but deemed a legitimate function of government, is a statement to the sad state of affairs of the education and docile acceptance of tyranny by our citizenry.

The whole idea of decentralized government is to retain the flexibility in societal norms necessary to allow widely varied social groups to retain their identity while providing a framework within which they can comfortably co-exist.
So bigots can coexist with people they would be free to hate and repress? So the wealthy could prey upon the masses? So sexual predators could prey upon children? So unskilled practitioners could perform surgery or prescribe damaging medications? So religious zealots could hound and demean others who don't share their views?

You are painting a picture of a dangerous atmosphere in a non-unified country with that view. I can understand concern about "docile acceptance of tyranny", but that is not especially a result of government, it's a result of wealth dominating over not only the masses, but over the government as well.

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Actually, the entire Constitution is a short list of what the government is allowed to do – with vehement restrictions on interfering with an individual’s right to pursue happiness.

The protection of individuals from having the views of others forced upon them is one of the foundations of that document.

While everyone has the right to pursue happiness, there are limits, because uncheck, they could negatively interfere with other's rights to happiness. I don't even need to show an example of how ridiculous an extreme version of this thought could be. People don't live in a vacuum, they live in communities, cities, town, States, countries, the world. Of course there needs to be oversight in the form of governance.

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The point, in case anyone missed it, is that you cannot regulate thoughts and bigotry is merely the result of the thought processes (or lack thereof) of short-sighted, opinionated jackasses.
I don't remember suggesting thought control, merely control of action or deed that interferes with other's rights to pursuit of happiness. History has shown us that education is the best form of bigotry control - in general - admittedly there are a**holes everywhere - so through regulation and governance, bigotry can become repressed via social norms, education, etc.

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Are you claiming there is no government regulation of firearm ownership in Mexico?

Or, are you claiming that government can effectively control an individual’s determination to commit violence?

You will find that neither is the case.

I'm suggesting neither - only that unregulated, there would be even MORE gun violence in this country (which has an astonishing (+/-) 30,000 firearm related deaths, 75,000 firearm related woundings each year) - and that is sad.

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Again, Roe vs. Wade should never have even been considered.

Abortion is an individual choice that is no business of the government.


Your second sentence negates the first sentence.

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« Reply #67 on: Feb 29, 2012, 02:11PM »

back to original topic:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/29/us/virginia-senate-passes-revised-ultrasound-bill.html?ref=us

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. . . Changing course after an unwelcome national uproar, the Virginia Senate adopted a revised bill on Tuesday that still requires doctors to perform an ultrasound on women before they have an abortion, but also says that women cannot be forced to have an invasive vaginal ultrasound.

Gov. Bob McDonnell demanded the revisions last week, and their acceptance on Tuesday all but assured the state’s adoption of the ultrasound requirement. The original bill set off protests from women’s groups and others. Some critics called it “state rape,” and the plan was mocked on television comedy shows.

The furor has already had an effect in other states considering ultrasound mandates, including Alabama and Idaho, with lawmakers seeking to avoid accusations that they are subjecting women to an unwanted, invasive procedure . . .

In Alabama, the sponsor of a bill to strengthen an existing ultrasound requirement said on Monday that he would seek a revision softening the bill. The existing bill mandates that the screen must face the pregnant woman and requires use of the scanning method that provides the clearest image — which would mean vaginal ultrasounds in most cases.

The choice of scanning techniques should “be the choice of the mother,” the sponsor, Senator Clay Scofield, a Republican, said in a television interview on Monday in Huntsville. “If she does not want a vaginal transducer she does not have to have it.”

In Idaho, senators introducing a similar ultrasound bill added language on Monday requiring use of “whichever method the physician and patient agree is best under the circumstances.”

The choice is between vaginal ultrasounds, which involve placing a probe inside the body, or the more familiar abdominal procedure, done externally. Through most of the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, medical experts say, only the invasive procedure can provide a clear image of the tiny fetus or an audible record of the heartbeat, and most abortions occur within this period.

As a result, the bills under active consideration in several states, including Pennsylvania and Mississippi, require detailed fetal images that would in practice require many patients to have vaginal ultrasounds.

Such a requirement has been in effect since early this month in Texas with little of the outcry seen in Virginia. Similar laws adopted in Oklahoma and North Carolina are now blocked by federal court order until their constitutionality is determined.

In Alabama, the Virginia furor fanned new controversy over a proposal in the Legislature, prompting a swift reaction from voters and the author of the bill, which is called the “Right to Know and See Act.”

Even if it is amended to offer a choice of probes, the bill would contain some of the country’s strongest pre-abortion mandates . . .

In Mississippi, a bill working its way through committee requires an ultrasound that provides an image of high quality, which cannot be achieved with abdominal procedures in the initial months of pregnancy. The woman must be offered a chance to see the image and hear the fetal heartbeat. She cannot avoid hearing a description of the sonogram unless, among other things, she is a victim of sexual assault or incest or the fetus is medically compromised.

The Pennsylvania legislature is considering a law with some of the country’s strongest provisions. It would require vaginal probes in many cases, display of the scanning screen to the patient and a printout of the image for inclusion in the patient’s medical records. It would also impose a 24-hour waiting period between ultrasound and abortion that critics say would be a burden for some women. . . .
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Allen
First and foremost I'm a proud Dad & lucky Husband.  They say great minds can differ (not that I claim to have a great mind).  Remember that $ and my opinion buys coffee at the diner.
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