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[lnb1230]

Hello all!  I am the mother of a 15 year old female trombonist who I am told often is exceptional in her talent.  I am NOT a musician, and therefore not at all a good judge.  She was recently honored to be told by a very distinguished principal trombone from a major professional orchestra that she has exceptional talent and truly has the ability to make it professionally.  He is even willing to work with her.   However, as her parents, we know how difficult the field of music is and are scared of her working so hard for years to end up jobless.  I am posting a link to her playing The David for her recent state competition. She just turned 15 a couple of months ago. From what I understand, it is highly unusual for a kid her age to be able to play this.  Would you please take a moment to listen to her perform, and let me know your thoughts?  I would love to be able to use the phenomenal resource of the internet to be able to gather the opinions of many, as she tries to decide if she goes for it or not.

Here is the link:  http://youtu.be/fRLIQL5vX9A

Thanks so much in advance.

[Gabe Langfur]

Yes, she has some exceptional strengths in her playing: excellent high range, good if not yet great sound, and clearly a very good ear for pitch (her slide is not always in the right place, but more often than not she adjusts the right way). I have heard overall better high school trombonists, but she's definitely got tremendous potential, and at only 15 she's got plenty of time to keep refining what she's doing.

There are a couple of things I would address as a teacher right away. One is the way she holds her slide, which I think doesn't give her enough accuracy to get to the right place or enough flexibility to make quick adjustments. I would also work on richness of sound in the low register, which will help fill everything else out as well.

In my opinion, the best thing you can do as a parent is to encourage and support her as best you can to pursue music as much and as fast as she wants, without pushing her to do it any faster or more intensely than she asks for. There are some very fast tracks to get on, including sending her to the Interlochen Arts Academy for high school, but that's not the best choice for every young musician or every family. A less intense but usually still very effective track would be to get her the best private teacher you can locally, which may or may not be the principal trombone player of the local orchestra. I see you are near Indianapolis...I don't know the principal trombonist in the ISO, but I know the bass trombonist, Jared Rodin, who has a fantastic reputation as a teacher. I would also advise helping her participate in the best youth orchestra program you can drive to in a reasonable amount of time.

There are great summer programs where she can learn a tremendous amount in a relatively short time: the two most famous are at Interlochen in Michigan: http://www.interlochen.org/ and BUTI at Tanglewood: http://www.bu.edu/cfa/tanglewood/ BUTI has a 2-week trombone program for high school students at the beginning of the summer, followed by an orchestra or wind ensemble program, and you can participate in one without the other. The 2-week program is a great thing for intensive study of the instrument, and my BU colleague Don Lucas is a great teacher. There are a couple of other very good programs too, including Kinhaven in Vermont and Blue Lake Fine Arts Camp in Michigan. I'm sure I'm leaving some out.

As to her future in music, it's not so bleak a field as many people make it out to be. Sure, the auditions for the top orchestras are highly competitive, but there are a lot of ways to make a great life in music without winning one of those auditions. And an education in music does not preclude a career in something else if at some point she decides to go a different direction. In fact, an education in music is great for critical thinking, independence of thought, ability to accomplish tasks without having to be directed every step of the way, etc. Many employers in other fields know this and are happy to hire people with musical training for non-musical jobs.

Best of luck to you and her, and I would say if she loves it, go for it!

[lnb1230]

Oh my goodness!  Thank you so much for your input.  It was so thoughtful of you to take all of that time to give us another professional opinion.  It is actually the principle trombonist for the ISO Jim Beckel who has said that he thinks she has a lot of talent and he would like to work with her.  We are so honored, as he is phenomenal!  She is going to start working with him on a regular basis, and we are so excited.  Thanks so much for the encouragement and feedback.    Any other opinions or thoughts?

[Thomas Matta]

Jim Beckel is a very talented and respected musician. Studying with either Jim or Jared would be a great experience.

[BandGeekBarclay]

I've not much to add to what the others have said - but from a 15 year old's point of view, definitely getting a good teacher will make all the difference.

Also, make absolutely sure she can care for her instrument - I know people who've bought brand new trombones because they thought their valve was stuck due to the age of the instrument, not the fact they've never oiled it.

Good luck to her in her future trombone playing - and make sure she comes on the forum, it's very helpful!

[mrnoodle]

I think the concept of "professional musician" is not a useful description, in this context.
I prefer the phrase "Independent performing arts professional" [IPAP]
This is all my opinion, of course, but I have some experience with the life of a full-time IPAP as my wife is one.
I am a financial professional with a bachelors degree in trombone performance, and have been thinking about this
recently as I am preparing a presentation to a "Business of Music" class at the local university.
I think every full-time IPAP needs to have a mix of skills - not just performing, but composing, arranging, publicity,
fundraising (performing arts organizations are almost always not-for profits that live on charitable contributions),
management, and, perhaps most importantly, teaching. Every full-time IPAP that I know derives a significant portion
of their income from teaching of one sort or another. They also need tremendous organizational and time management skills.
The operative word is "professional". In other words, being an "independent performing arts professional" is like being
another other kind of "professional".

[bbocaner]

I listened to the video. I've known high school players who sounded much better who never amounted to anything (beyond a lifelong love of music and a hobby they adore), and I've known high school players who sounded much worse who went on to win principal trombone positions in major US symphony orchestras. I'd say the latter is even more common, because a lot of those players who were really good as high school underclassmen and had all that natural talent never learned the practice skills to take themselves to the top, and tend to peak at a certain level beyond which their natural talent can't take them; and those players who always had to work hard at things continue to grow at an ever-increasing pace.

Does she absolutely love it? If given the choice between staying home all day practicing and doing pretty much anything else will she consistently choose the practicing? Because that's the person who will go on to win a job. I believe that the kind of top level classical music jobs one could make a comfortable living at are MUCH more scarce than jobs in the NFL/NBA/MLB -- so you have to think of it as that kind of challenge.

The biggest deficiencies I hear in the video are a lack of a good legato and musical expression. A teacher can help with the legato, most teachers I've had aren't very good at teaching musical expression. I'd suggest getting this book and doing some really disciplined self-study of the material in it:

Sound in Motion by David McGill

[Trombone Samurai]

Go for it. She can always continue her education in something else if she decides later on that she doesn't want to do music. There are many professional musicians who get an education in music and then go to grad school for an MBA or other type of degree.

[robcat2075]

She's 15? You don't have much to lose except the cost of lessons by pursuing it for a few years.

Also I think the question...

Does she absolutely love it?

...is important in the long run.  The "professional" trombonists I have know did not have steady symphony jobs, they had to scratch and hustle and search for every gig and every month they were always on the edge of not being able to pay the rent or keep the car going.  Trombone would have to be the fulfillment of all your dreams to keep going at that.  Call me old-fashioned but I can't imagine a woman doing that.

But pressing forward... Find a way for her to play in ensembles with musicians as good or better than her.  If she is the star of her high school band, she won't continue to be challenged by them.  My own feeling is that most private trombone study is very slanted towards solo playing but most of real-world trombone playing is not about playing solos, it's about being a great ensemble person who plays in tune excellently and fits in in every other regard.

Get her to orchestra camp or trombone camp or all-area honors band or what ever other opportunities there are for challenging group playing.

If she tires of it all in a few years... Problem solved! 

[Eastcheap]

The biggest deficiencies I hear in the video are a lack of a good legato

I think losing the death-grip on the slide would go a long way towards helping both that and the intonation problems.  She needs more speed, more delicacy, and more precision, and I don't see how she can possibly accomplish that holding the slide the way she does (it made my wrist and elbow hurt just watching it).  Fortunately, that's easily remedied.

I also wonder if she's playing a leaky horn.  The sound is painfully reminiscent of an audition I played where I failed to get my Bach mouthpiece thoroughly jammed into my Remington receiver.  New spitvalve cork time, maybe?  (I've found that, even if it doesn't leak, a worn cork can sometimes really kill the second partial.)

and musical expression.

Based on the quality of the recording, I'm loath to make judgements on that point.  I think you're most probably right, however...

most teachers I've had aren't very good at teaching musical expression.

I believe artistry comes with experience, musical and otherwise.  She's terribly young yet.

Beyond that, three things immediately come to mind watching the video:

• (1) I see a nervous young lady who both needs and deserves to be more confident in her playing.  I don't believe we're seeing her at anything like her best;
• (2) Seems to me there are way too many people in that room, which likely isn't helping with (1).  I'm going to include myself in that number because, frankly, I don't think this video should have been posted where anyone in the world can see it.  I strongly believe that auditions, evaluations, and the like should be private; and
• (3) I've said it before and I'll say it again:  Trombonists are a whole lot better-looking than when I was in school.

Find a way for her to play in ensembles with musicians as good or better than her.  If she is the star of her high school band, she won't continue to be challenged by them.

Amen to that.  I'd go farther and say that, if she's really serious, she needs to be pursuing a broader musical education than that provided by the typical high-school band program.  It doesn't have to be a conservatory education:  just attending lots of concerts and recitals (and whatever jazz venues will let her past the door) and some exposure to music theory can make a huge difference.  If music is what she really loves, I guarantee you she'll soak it up like a sponge.

[Full Pedal Trombonist]

I have the honor to help out at a local high school where a few students are amazing for their age. I fully encourage them to continue with Music and learn as much from the ones who know their stuff. I wish I had the opportunity to work with someone like Jim Beckel when I was her age. I wasn't able to study privately until college, but back on topic... definitely keep her in Music if she loves it. She has the talent to be one of the Greats.

[lnb1230]

She has been to the Music for All Summer Symposium for jazz where she had a class with Jamey Abersold and other incredible musicians. She is 3rd chair in the All State Honor Band which is the highest of our two All State bands. This is quite an accomplishment for a sophomore. We are always seeking ways that she can learn more while not making us go broke. Lol

She definitely has some confidence issues and was quite nervous during this competition. It was not her best playing and the recording is terrible. Mr. Beckel worked with her in person on it after this date and we have already seen some great growth. They r about to start working together regularly which will b wonderful!

In all honestly, I am kinda wishing I wouldn't have posted this because I shouldn't have put her in such a position of being evaluated without her permission. I hesitate to let her read this because she is just starting to gain confidence and believe she can really do this. Being only newly 15, a teenage girl, and a perfectionist, she is already quite hard on herself.  I am grateful for all the time u have given. I just probably should have kept my motherly worries to myself. Lol

[boneagain]

I just probably should have kept my motherly worries to myself. Lol

Respectfully, I disagree.

If nothing else there are some key points she should find helpful from the above:
1) If she really wants to play, she can do as much as she desires, REGARDLES of the recording
2) She does NOT have to intend to make playing a career to still merit developing obvious talent

She got some nice compliments here, along with some very good constructive criticism.  If she intends to keep on playing, this would be a very good thread to look over.

Of course, it MIGHT be prudent to aplogize for stepping into her territory BEFORE giving here the link  

[WaltTrombone]

In all honestly, I am kinda wishing I wouldn't have posted this because I shouldn't have put her in such a position of being evaluated without her permission. I hesitate to let her read this because she is just starting to gain confidence and believe she can really do this. Being only newly 15, a teenage girl, and a perfectionist, she is already quite hard on herself.  I am grateful for all the time u have given. I just probably should have kept my motherly worries to myself. Lol

Well, I think she's pretty darn good for someone her age who probably hasn't had much in the way of formal trombone instruction. I'd love to hear her in a few years. If she keeps on doing what she's been doing, with some guidance and a continued solid work ethic, she'll be rocking it.

It's ok to be a perfectionist, BUT she has to figure out how to learn from that without being judgmental. That's the difference between "Geez, I screwed that up, I hate my life, I suck at trombone," and "Geez, I screwed that up. Guess I know what I have to work on next practice session." Besides all that, any self-evaluation needs to take place later on, after the horn is back in the case. No room for any self-evaluation while you're playing. That's the time to live in the present ONLY and be having fun making music. Tough balance for many of us at any age, but especially at 15.

As a fellow parent myself, with 2 teenage girls, I can relate to your concerns. Hard to balance parental concerns with trying not to be over-protective, especially when it pertains to a possible career path that you know very little about. You're just trying to learn what's in store if she continues, so that you can continue to support her as best you can. Motherly worries? My own Mom worried about me and my brother (mostly me) on her deathbed, and we were in our 30s at the time. It doesn't end.

[Andrew Meronek]

But pressing forward... Find a way for her to play in ensembles with musicians as good or better than her.  If she is the star of her high school band, she won't continue to be challenged by them.  My own feeling is that most private trombone study is very slanted towards solo playing but most of real-world trombone playing is not about playing solos, it's about being a great ensemble person who plays in tune excellently and fits in in every other regard.

Get her to orchestra camp or trombone camp or all-area honors band or what ever other opportunities there are for challenging group playing.

If she tires of it all in a few years... Problem solved! 

Ditto on this idea. The reason why it's extremely hard for a private instructor to teach musical expression is because this is something that we have to learn aurally, by imitating people who can play with great expression, and we need to do this with a lot of different styles before really figuring it out. Unless the private instructor is freakishly good, they will only be able to present one style, and even then it's extremely limited because a huge part of musical expression is interacting with your fellow musicians - which can only happen in ensembles.

Don't only concentrate on classical-style groups like concert bands and orchestras. If she finds it interesting, let her play in jazz bands, salsa bands, rock bands, and whatever other style she can get her hands on. Playing music is a social experience. Be social.

[Bonefide]

to the OP, or the mother, I think the only mistake you made was not asking for her permission.

You have already received relevant and thoughtful responses from working professionals and teachers (Gabe, for instance); as well as people in a similar situation as your daughter (BandGeekBarclay, for instance).

And as far as learning music; definitely doesn't happen immediately. Experience, for sure. More specifically, as Andrew said above me, playing next to musical people is by far the best way to learn and internalize "musicality".

That can really be extended to any playing differences between idioms. Sit next to Jimmy Bosch if you wanna learn how to take a killin' Latin solo. Hang with Fred Wesley if you're trying to learn how to make people move. Not that we could all really be so lucky...

[robcat2075]

If a 15 year old girl was talented at basketball and was on the basketball team which practices two hours every day I don't think we'd do much hand wringing and stressing over that even though the chances of becoming a professional basketball player are so close to zero that we could responsibly describe them as "zero".

Trombone is like that.  If she likes it and you like that she likes it and this trombone thing isn't taking food off the table... go for it... there are far worse things a teen could devote time to.  Most teen girls are doing neither trombone nor basketball, they're Facebooking and tweeting for 4 hours a night.

Eventually life and stuff will catch up and serious decisions about what to pursue will need to be made but 15 is not that age yet.

[Eastcheap]

I am grateful for all the time u have given. I just probably should have kept my motherly worries to myself. Lol

No no no no no no no!

Look, to be honest, I hesitated to watch the video for a couple of days because I thought, "Oh, great.  Another doting mother putting videos of her kid on the internet."  But, what I saw was much more than I expected.  For all of the flaws in Lauren's performance, it didn't make me wince.  And that is so rare.

This is a girl with something to say -- she just needs to learn how to say it.  I can see it in her eyes, and I can see the struggle to get it out.  And it's just...not...quite...there...yet.  But it's closer than I'll bet she realizes and, good grief, we're talking about someone on the shy side of 15.  Patience and hard work are all that are required and, of the two, the former is, by far, the more difficult.

You're worried about her finding work?  Forget that.  When I was about Lauren's age, I suffered a real crisis of confidence.  I was surrounded by nervous Nellies...and I gave up.  I failed more thoroughly than you can even begin to imagine.  Could I have been a great performer?  Probably not.  But I could have been a teacher, a music historian, a librarian, a transcriptionist, an arranger.  Even being a concert hall usher would have been better than what I ended up with which, in the end, was nothing.

In short, if this is Lauren's passion, if this is what she really wants, then there are no consequences of pursuing it that are worse than the consequences of not doing so.  And if it's not, it's not.  She'll figure it out on her own over the next couple of years if she's not discouraged.

And all this pedantic twaddle about technique that sounds like criticism?  Heck, that's just shop-talk.  She knows all about that, I'm certain.  Now, send her over; we all want to meet her.  That is, assuming she's not already here and just dying of embarrassment.

[NancyD]

I was one of those 15 year old girl trombonists in the mid 70's. My parents said the same thing, as I went off to Indiana University in Bloomington.

Did I 'make it' in music? No. But the incredible richness it added to my life is immeasurable. I play occasionally for $$ now, but mostly for the love of it, and get more out of coaching my peers, playing as a soloist in front of some community groups I play with- all of that would not have happened without it. Plus at school, I met people from all over the world, world class teachers- all these enriched my life and formed the person I am. I also learned that I don't have what it takes to be a professional- and it had nothing to do with talent. I never would have learned that with out the experience of trying it, nor do I have the life long regret of "could I have?".

My music degree did actually pave the way for other jobs, and eventually lead to another degree (though not much of a performance degree transferred to electrical engineering- lol)I did form another career, and am lucky enough to live in a part of the country with a rich community orch/band/big band tradition to feed the still very deep passion.

Hope this helps.

Nancy

[Eastcheap]

Did I 'make it' in music? No. But the incredible richness it added to my life is immeasurable.

I've spoken to lots of people who washed out of the UNT (well, NTSU) music program (one of whom quipped that he was so bad that they instituted a special one o'clock A.M. lab just for him).  They picked up their freshman and sophomore credits, switched majors, and, for the most part, did pretty well for themselves.  Not a one of them regretted the attempt.

If you want a sure thing, go into gerontology or a related field.  Everything else is a crapshoot (Dallas County is packed to the rafters with unemployed engineers and computer scientists who figured they'd guessed right).