next »

[MaestroHound]

By chance, I have had a Yamaha 350C (compact trombone) in my possession for the last few days. When I first tried it, it did not play well at all. No wonder, the water key cork was on its way out and there was a leak.

The day after, I replaced the cork, and it still played very out of tune - partials did not line up well at all. Probably it had been played with the leak (and thus with very questionable intonation) for quite a while before it came to me. Even low and middle B-flats did not match each other (middle B-flat way flat compared with low B-flat).

I then played it with some other people for a couple of hours, kind of forcing it to play at the correct intonation, "lipping" up and down with somewhat consistent slide positions. And just after a couple of hours, the horn plays much better in tune.

Does this really happen, or am I imagining things?? I mean, horns change over time, but just after a couple of hours??

[GetzenBassPlayer]

Maybe you changed (adjusted)?

[octavposaune]

Yes you were imagining things. 

[Thomas Matta]

Sounds to me like you just needed a little time to figure out the horn.

It's not learning you, you are learning it.

[Burgerbob]

Especially since it's a strange horn (in C first, using the valve to be in Bb-who's ever played a C trombone?) it's gotta be the soft machine changing.

[MaestroHound]

Seems like we have a consensus. It was just really dramatic change. I still play my "normal" horns just like before, too (I mean, it's not like I now over-compensate on other horns, which would have been tricky!). I remember reading how Denis Wick "taught a student's horn how to play high D" (or something like that) by playing that note over and over again, so I thought it might have been a similar phenomenon. Maybe not - and in that case, I am amazed at the human's ability to adjust!

[Dukesboneman]

Are you walking your dog, or is he walking you, you just don`t know it.

[BGuttman]

Are you walking your dog, or is he walking you, you just don`t know it.

The difference is the dog is a living, thinking creature.

I don't believe trombones have any sentience.  We provide that.

Note: my dog is out for herself.  She's checking the neighborhood to see who's been here and leaving calling cards for them.

[Bonefide]

Seems like we have a consensus. It was just really dramatic change. I still play my "normal" horns just like before, too (I mean, it's not like I now over-compensate on other horns, which would have been tricky!). I remember reading how Denis Wick "taught a student's horn how to play high D" (or something like that) by playing that note over and over again, so I thought it might have been a similar phenomenon. Maybe not - and in that case, I am amazed at the human's ability to adjust!

I bet Denis Wick could play a high D on any playable horn. Student just needed to hear it done to believe that they could reproduce it.

[WaltTrombone]

On the couple of 350Cs I've played, I haven't noticed the partials lining up too weirdly, but then again, I'm always playing on different horns, so I'm used to adjusting, within reason. These were reasonable enough, I guess. I DID think that they played better in C (valve pressed) than in Bb, but that had more to do with the change in resistance with the valve in or out.

I can adjust to a totally new horn in maybe a day or two, but I've found that I need a month or three of playing it to make it as reliable to use as my older horns. Once I've got that dialed in, I can go back and forth with a minimum of adjustment time, provided I get to put in some time on the different horns on a regular basis.

[actikid]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dummy

[Duffle]

I bet Denis Wick could play a high D on any playable horn. Student just needed to hear it done to believe that they could reproduce it.

....... and some unplayable ones too!.........

[Eastcheap]

I bet Denis Wick could play a high D on any playable horn. Student just needed to hear it done to believe that they could reproduce it.

I think there's a little more to it than that.  I also think you could accomplish much the same thing by whacking the horn in the right place with a toffee hammer...but you'd have to find that place.

In this case, like Walt said, you should probably be making a Bb vs. F or C vs. Bb comparison, not Bb vs. Bb, if you see what I mean.

[JP]

Good trombonists do not play with the slide or chops, they play music with their ears.

[actikid]

Good trombonists do not play with the slide or chops, they play music with their ears.

Exactly.  I'm not saying the horn can't ever be significant, but a great player knows how to play music into the instrument and knows what he or she expects to come out.  If the instrument requires a little adjustment, well, the great players can do that pretty much at the subconscious level.

And if you asked them how they had to adjust, they might not be able to give a very good answer.

[Lawrie]

Good trombonists do not play with the slide or chops, they play music with their ears.

Ya know, I've been trying for years and years to play by ear... 


... but the tone sucks big time, just can't seem to get the buzz right...  Not enough air I guess.

 
 

[BGuttman]

Ya know, I've been trying for years and years to play by ear... 


... but the tone sucks big time, just can't seem to get the buzz right...  Not enough air I guess.

 
 

You really should have a look at Ben Patterson's (bonedaddy) avatar...

[Bonefide]

You really should have a look at Ben Patterson's (bonedaddy) avatar...

better yet, watch this! (skip to ~2:50 if you have a short attention span).

[Blowero]

The day after, I replaced the cork, and it still played very out of tune - partials did not line up well at all. Probably it had been played with the leak (and thus with very questionable intonation) for quite a while before it came to me. Even low and middle B-flats did not match each other (middle B-flat way flat compared with low B-flat).

First of all, the partials aren't supposed to "line up". The partials are in the overtone series, which is a mathematical division of the sound wave. The natural overtone series is not at all the same as tempered pitch, which is what you are using if you are playing tonal music. The correct way to play the trombone is to adjust the positions so that each note is in tune. The trombone does not have 7 positions; it has a nearly infinite number of positions. Check out Robert Marsteller "Basic Routines" for a chart that explains the difference between the natural overtone series and tempered pitch.

Second, ANY trombone you play will produce an imperfect overtone series. There is no such thing as a perfectly in tune trombone. Personally, I can't remember ever playing a trombone where middle Bb wasn't flat in comparison to low Bb. I play low Bb further out on the slide than middle Bb on every trombone I own. It's a very common condition, and does not indicate a flaw in the instrument. Octaves are not necessarily going to be perfectly in tune with each other on a trombone.

[Lawrie]

You really should have a look at Ben Patterson's (bonedaddy) avatar...

Yup, it's a good one

[Lawrie]

better yet, watch this! (skip to ~2:50 if you have a short attention span).

That is wa-ay cool   Almost had me believing it for a moment, till he put one to his nose... 

[svenlarsson]

First of all, the partials aren't supposed to "line up". The partials are in the overtone series, which is a mathematical division of the sound wave. The natural overtone series is not at all the same as tempered pitch, which is what you are using if you are playing tonal music. The correct way to play the trombone is to adjust the positions so that each note is in tune. The trombone does not have 7 positions; it has a nearly infinite number of positions. Check out Robert Marsteller "Basic Routines" for a chart that explains the difference between the natural overtone series and tempered pitch.

Second, ANY trombone you play will produce an imperfect overtone series. There is no such thing as a perfectly in tune trombone. Personally, I can't remember ever playing a trombone where middle Bb wasn't flat in comparison to low Bb. I play low Bb further out on the slide than middle Bb on every trombone I own. It's a very common condition, and does not indicate a flaw in the instrument. Octaves are not necessarily going to be perfectly in tune with each other on a trombone.

Blowero, I know what you mean, there is no perfect line up of the partials in any trombone, and the octaves in partials 2-4 are not in tune in any horn.

But the partials line up different in different horns, Bach 42 is different the Conn 88 for example.
If you are used to play different horns, like Walt and Chris you do correct the out of tune tones automatically, if you are playing but one horn all the time you will very much notice a difference in the “line up”.

Quote Bonefide " I think there's a little more to it than that.  I also think you could accomplish much the same thing by whacking the horn in the right place with a toffee hammer...but you'd have to find that place."

That is correct, if you know where to whack you can make a certain tone higher, or lower.

The partials is by musicians known as “the overtone series”  witch is a bit confusing, sorry to be patronizing but I do think we will understand each other better if we make a difference between the trombone partials and overtone series.

The overtone series is ALWAYS lined up in perfect mathematic.   
The trombone partials are NEVER lined up in perfect mathematic. Just close.
 Any of the trombone partials has its own overtone series witch is perfect and is close to the partials in the horn, but only close not perfect. As soon as you change the balance between conical and cylindrically tubing (like move the slide in or out) or change the profile of the bell or lead pipe the partials will line up differently.

The tubing is always collecting dirt, especially if you don’t clean the horn, the dirt is changing the profile, and the line up of the partials.

The old classical German trombones was before 1950 built with more cylindrically tubing but bigger flare in the bell, the partials do line up radically different in my three old German horns, if you do check it up carefully. I can still play the in tune (well, I could, I haven’t touched them for a while)

[svenlarsson]

Seems like we have a consensus. It was just really dramatic change. I still play my "normal" horns just like before, too (I mean, it's not like I now over-compensate on other horns, which would have been tricky!). I remember reading how Denis Wick "taught a student's horn how to play high D" (or something like that) by playing that note over and over again, so I thought it might have been a similar phenomenon. Maybe not - and in that case, I am amazed at the human's ability to adjust!

First time I meet Dennis Wick (I’ve meet him many times) he tested my Williams 10.
That horn did have a very flat high D. He did the same thing as in the book of his, played it many times, loud and soft. But this time the high D was still flat, as it is still today.
(No problem there is a good D on position 2.5.)

I will not say that your experience is impossible, since the horn is full of objects that can move (soft object that you will not like to eat ) I think it could happen!

Many violinists claim that you can “teach” the violin to play in tune, knowing that the structure of wood changes close to 100 times slower then brass when subjected to vibrations makes you wonder. But there is a lot of dust in violins? 

[lingon]

...But there is a lot of dust in violins?  ...

In? On!

But Svenne, what about the story of the student that borrowed your horn and blowed the F out of tune?

[svenlarsson]

In? On!

But Svenne, what about the story of the student that borrowed your horn and blowed the F out of tune?

There is dust inside the violin, believe me! (I know, years ago I did practice minimum 4 hours violin a day. Latter there was a lot of dust on the violin too)

Well I guess I should tell the story as it was.
I was playing duets with that student in question; we both played similar Holton bass bones.
I commented on that the student moved his slide in when playing the F on the staff while I moved the slide out on the same tone, still we both played the F in tune!

We switched horns and to my surprise I had to move the slide in to play the F in tune on his horn, he had to move the slide out on my horn!

We went to practice for half an hour in different rooms, he with my horn and I with his horn.
After that time I played the F on his horn the way I was used to, he played the F moving the slide in as he was used to.

We switched horns, I got my bone back, to my surprise the F was out of tune! To play it in tune I hade to move the slide in! He did have the same experience but the other way of course.

This happened more the 40 years ago, you have a good memory John!

Explanation? Your guess is as good as mine.
I believe on some liquid stuff moving in the horns?

[Eastcheap]

There is dust inside the violin, believe me!

Sticky, horsey dust. 

We switched horns, I got my bone back, to my surprise the F was out of tune! To play it in tune I hade to move the slide in! He did have the same experience but the other way of course.

A lot of subtle intonation adjustments seem to happen unconsciously.  Like so many of us, I learned to play D in first and to tune to F with the slide all the way in.  It was years before I realized why I was cramping up so bad when I had to play lots of B-flats and Ds.

[baileyman]

...

I then played it with some other people for a couple of hours, kind of forcing it to play at the correct intonation, "lipping" up and down with somewhat consistent slide positions. And just after a couple of hours, the horn plays much better in tune.

Does this really happen, or am I imagining things?? I mean, horns change over time, but just after a couple of hours??

Sam tells a story with the opposite outcome, a horn "taught" to play badly.  I couldn't possibly recount it correctly.  But ya gotta wonder, since it seems great players' horns also play great, is that the result of a great players selecting them, or did great players have a good effect on them (and these may not be mutually exclusive). 

[actikid]

Was he talking about this?

[lingon]

...This happened more the 40 years ago, you have a good memory John!
...Explanation? Your guess is as good as mine.
I believe on some liquid stuff moving in the horns?...

Thanks Svenne for refreshing the memory!
There is really something strange happening with our horns, or at least some of them.

Sam tells a story with the opposite outcome, a horn "taught" to play badly.  I couldn't possibly recount it correctly.  But ya gotta wonder, since it seems great players' horns also play great, is that the result of a great players selecting them, or did great players have a good effect on them (and these may not be mutually exclusive). 

Maybe a combination? I remember parts of Sam's story about that horn. So how much influence does a player have on an instrument and vice versa, provided that the instrument is correct or as near as possible correct put together? Is the perfect instrument a myth, does the player make the perfect instrument great? I have in at least a couple of instances tried instruments that were dead, almost useless, but after some tough work with them they started to work very well. Also confirmed by colleagues, so not only for me?! Now is it magic or as Svenne put it "some liquid stuff moving in the horns"? If liqud stuff, couldn't someone put together the formula and sell the stuff so everyone can have great instruments?

[robcat2075]

The overtone series is ALWAYS lined up in perfect mathematic. 

I'm not sure that this is always true.  Bells, for example, have a strange overtone arrangement somewhat different from the integer multiple series we are taught in the physics books.

http://carillontech.org/timbre.html

Instruments such as bells and strings vibrate at many different frequencies simultaneously, and for a bell, both horizontally and vertically (see diagrams below). Bells' characteristic somber tone is the result of a unique overtone profile, most notably the prominent minor-third overtone. This overtone is unusual among musical instruments in that it is non-harmonic—it vibrates at 2.4 times the base frequency, outside of the natural harmonic series.

There are probably other sounds (we would regard them as non-musical) that have overtones that are not in perfect alignment.

I suspect it's not a law of the universe that all overtones are perfect, but that the things we regard as musical sounds tend to have well-behaved overtones.

[MaestroHound]

I think I needed to choose the wording in the title more carefully. But some posts seem to have identified what I wanted to say.

I did not mean to say "teaching" the horn to automatically play in tune, of course. But rather to kind of subtly shift the natural alignment of the series of intonations at which the horn wants to resonate most naturally. I did also say the change was "dramatic," which may have been overly dramatic on my part. It's all relative, and if you check the difference before/after with a tuner, it wouldn't have been different by any more than 6 or 7 cents. Actually, it's well within the difference where you could play at either pitch rather easily without moving the slide at all by adjusting other things. It is just that the "sweet spot" where the horn sounds the most resonant seemed to have shifted, just a little (but "dramatically" to myself).

I mean, the opposite seems to happen rather often, as one student's story had been told by Sven here. I knew of a student who played with tense everything, playing everything on a very sharp side of the "sweet spot." When I tried his horn, I had to pull out the hand slide quite a bit to let it resonate naturally in tune (didn't touch the tuning slide, but it was pulled out quite a bit already). I don't think it played the same way when it came out of the factory.

I make most of my living as an orchestral conductor, so I deal with string players/instruments a lot. I think the violin story is more than just an urban legend. They just seem to vibrate better at the pitches they are always played. Don't know why. It is, after all, just a wood chamber.

Back to my experience - I never really learned this 350C's tendencies beforehand (other than to notice it wanted to resonate at unnaturally flat pitch on its middle B-flat partial, during the short warm up I did that day), so during our "jam session" I was putting the slide at rather generic places, trying to buzz at the pitch that was in tune with others in the room. In some partials (middle B-flat partial, for one), it wasn't the pitch the instrument wanted to resonate at first. But being quite forgetful and inflexible for adjustments, I kept doing the same thing for the entire time. In the end, I felt (and still do, when I played it again this afternoon) that it started to want to resonate at the pitches that felt more familiar to me. Again, not very much of a difference if you test with the tuner probably, but definitely noticeable to musicians' ears. In fact, another guy commented on my little lip slur pattern I did in between pieces became more in tune in the end than when I was warming up at first.

I could still be dreaming, but this is the story I am sticking, for now...

[RedHotMama]

I think I needed to choose the wording in the title more carefully.

I love it!

I've been speaking quite sternly to my trumpet player's cornet for a number of years, but it still hasn't got the message.

[svenlarsson]

I'm not sure that this is always true.  Bells, for example, have a strange overtone arrangement somewhat different from the integer multiple series we are taught in the physics books.

http://carillontech.org/timbre.html

There are probably other sounds (we would regard them as non-musical) that have overtones that are not in perfect alignment.

I suspect it's not a law of the universe that all overtones are perfect, but that the things we regard as musical sounds tend to have well-behaved overtones.

Some instruments, like bells, have complexes source of fundamentals.
The result is a mixture of more the one overtone series. Each series is mathematical right though, funny enough does the oboe have a mixed sound with more then one fundamental.
I would actually be easier to tune to a clarinet that has cleaner overtone series.

The over tones are created in the room, the instrument give the sources. More or less complexed.

[Eastcheap]

It's all relative, and if you check the difference before/after with a tuner, it wouldn't have been different by any more than 6 or 7 hz.

I hope you mean cents.  6 or 7 Hz is a lot (it's ~17 cents off an F5).

When I tried his horn, I had to pull out the hand slide quite a bit to let it resonate naturally in tune (didn't touch the tuning slide, but it was pulled out quite a bit already). I don't think it played the same way when it came out of the factory.

If we're talking about a mass-produced horn, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it left the factory like that.  I've seen much worse (and I'm not talking about horns with "made in China" stamped on them).

I think the violin story is more than just an urban legend. They just seem to vibrate better at the pitches they are always played. Don't know why. It is, after all, just a wood chamber.

Don't forget the bridge and the neck and the pegs and the tailpiece and the tuners.  There are a plenty of things on a violin that can shift, and they're all under a heck of a lot of tension.

But being quite forgetful and inflexible for adjustments, I kept doing the same thing for the entire time.

I'd bet you're more flexible than you think.  You just don't notice it.

[actikid]

I love it!

I've been speaking quite sternly to my trumpet player's cornet for a number of years, but it still hasn't got the message.

Try showing it this picture.  I think it will get your point.

[actikid]

I felt (and still do, when I played it again this afternoon) that it started to want to resonate at the pitches that felt more familiar to me.

If you are asking about the relatively likelihood:

a) that by playing the horn for a an hour or so, you rearranged its molecular structure; or

b) between the morning and afternoon session, your body changed, including the firmness of your embouchure, the amount of breath support, and possibly your mental alertness

I think I would have to go with b).

I had the flu last week.  I ended up having to play one gig while I still had a 100.5 fever.  Everything hurt.  I couldn't take more than 50% of my normal air.  After that, I had to put the horn down for 5 days to get fully over the flu.

When I game back to it, everything was wrong.  I have had to go back to the reliable Melodious Etudes to reset.  After a couple of days of work, the horn is starting to respond as I expect.

It doesn't take much to fall out of the "sweet spot".

[RedHotMama]

Try showing it this picture.  I think it will get your point.

That looks like the soprano saxophone belonging to a good friend of mine (a good friend, but not a good soprano saxophone player!) on the night when, during a wild gig with the customers leaping around the dance floor, it got stood on. Squashed flat. We nearly s*** ourselves trying not to laugh. Unfortunately, he got it fixed.

[robcat2075]

The over tones are created in the room, the instrument give the sources. More or less complexed.

That would suggest that if we play a trombone in an anechoic chamber or were to perch ourselves a mile above the ground with no immediate reflecting surfaces or were to place a mic inside the bell to capture the sound sans acoustic environment... all we would hear is a pure sine wave.

I am doubtful.

[Lawrie]

"Can you "teach" the horn to play in tune??"

Sounds like trying to teach a hammer to drive nails in straight... 

[robcat2075]

again with the overtones....

According to the always reliable Wikipedia, in its articles on Harmonic series and Inharmonicity are not always perfect multiples of the fundamental.

Blown and bowed tones tend to adhere to the ideal more closely than struck or plucked sound sources.  The case of piano tones' slightly stretched overtone series and how that affected attempts to tune pianos is cited as an example.

[Euphanasia]

"Can you "teach" the horn to play in tune??"

Sounds like trying to teach a hammer to drive nails in straight... 

 

Funny stuff!!!

I agree. I think in all cases we're dealing with the intricacies of the soft machine. As a player of valved instruments,I know that when I first get a horn, the valves will play out of tune on some notes. After I play for awhile, they fall better into tune. I don't think I'm teaching the horn to play better. I think my embouchure is catching up with the horn and learning when to lip down or up. Even in lingon's example, I think embouchure explains more than realignment of the horn's molecules. If you play a horn that's consistently flat and you have a good ear, you'll start to lip things up. Do that for awhile and switch back to your own horn and you'll find yourself still lipping things up.

As for the Wick example, I think sometimes you hear what you want to hear. I remember in High School, one vocalist in a musical couldn't hit the top note in one of the sections he was singing. The accompanist would hammer on that note several times as the singer held it, and damned if it didn't sound more like he had hit it afterward. Then next time, he'd sing it just as flat.

[lingon]

...I think sometimes you hear what you want to hear...

But Euph, what about Svenne's example?

[Euphanasia]

But Euph, what about Svenne's example?

Sorry--that's the one I called "lingon's example."

Here's how I see it: Svenne is describing two horns that seem identical, but one has a sharp F and the other has a flat F. Could be a solder blob, a dent at a node, etc. For years, Svenne has been coping with his out of tune F--partially with slide movement, but partially with embouchure. His student has done the same with his own horn, which has an F that's out of tune in the opposite direction. Give either of them a horn with a note that's out of tune in the other direction and he'll notice it immediately. He'll compensate with the slide, but he'll also learn to lip it into tune. After awhile, he'll get used to lipping that note in the opposite direction. Give him back his own horn and the note will once again be out of tune, seemingly in the opposite direction.

Imagine the same thing with three identical cars, one which has no discernible alignment problems, one which pulls to the right on the highway and one which pulls to the left.  Drive the left-pulling for an hour then the one in good alignment and it will seem like it's pulling to right. Drive the right-pulling car and the error will be doubled and quite noticeable. However, after an hour of driving it, you won't notice the pull anymore. Did  you teach the car to drive straight, or did your arm learn to compensate?

Here's the test: Pick up the student's horn again. Put your own horn back in the case. Play the students horn for an hour, compensating for the note that's off in the opposite direction as your own horn. Now, get your own horn back out of the case and try it out. I'd be willing to bet that your own horn will now have been "taught" to play that one note out of tune even though the student never touched it.

[lingon]

...Sorry--that's the one I called "lingon's example."...
...Here's the test: Pick up the student's horn again...

OK, yes that test would be extremely interesting to make.
However, I have a couple of horns with different characteristics and when switching horns then I would maybe be mislead and think that something has been different on one horn because I have played another horn which reacted different, but that does never happen, at least that I am aware of that is...
I am not convinced about only the soft machine, more convinced about that instruments are changing. But that's me.

[svenlarsson]

There is dust inside the violin, believe me! (I know, years ago I did practice minimum 4 hours violin a day. Latter there was a lot of dust on the violin too)

Well I guess I should tell the story as it was.
I was playing duets with that student in question; we both played similar Holton bass bones.
I commented on that the student moved his slide in when playing the F on the staff while I moved the slide out on the same tone, still we both played the F in tune!

We switched horns and to my surprise I had to move the slide in to play the F in tune on his horn, he had to move the slide out on my horn!

We went to practice for half an hour in different rooms, he with my horn and I with his horn.
After that time I played the F on his horn the way I was used to, he played the F moving the slide in as he was used to.

We switched horns, I got my bone back, to my surprise the F was out of tune! To play it in tune I hade to move the slide in! He did have the same experience but the other way of course.

This happened more the 40 years ago, you have a good memory John!

Explanation? Your guess is as good as mine.
I believe on some liquid stuff moving in the horns?

Ha ha, I did not tell the end of the story!
We kept on playing our own instruments, pretty soon the horn behaved as before.

Somebody mentioned the molecular structure, it does change when subjected to vibrations, I am sure there is pictures somewhere on the net showing that.
I do not think that would change the intonation though (I am not sure, some people do believe that) I tend to believe that the stuff we blow into our instrument stays in places that change the intonation, actually we do know that dirt in the horn does change how the horn play.

Maybe even the condense water drops can temporarily change the intonation, I don’t know.

Not that the following really has much to do with this discussion, that is going from rocket theory to stone age theory. 
The partials in a clarinet line up in odd multiples, if you put a mike in the mpc or the body of the instrument you will be able to record the odd series.
If you record the clarinet from a yard outside the instrument you will get complete overtone series since the air does vibrate in even multiples. With no air no sound at all.
The piano string partials do vibrate inharmonic in compared to the vibrations in the air.
The partials in the trombone do not line up exactly as the overtone series, in the 60:s and 70:s we used to put mikes in the mouthpieces, the sound was very different from a “normal” trombone sound, the sound was more or less modified on the amplifier.

[actikid]

Somebody mentioned the molecular structure, it does change when subjected to vibrations

Can somebody please post a link to a respected source that explains how vibrations in sheet metal at room temperature can change molecular arrangement?  I have been looking for such a paper and I have not found any such data.

That claim is often repeated on this forum as a matter of folklore.  If it were true, I would think this would be a factor well known and often discussed in the metallurgy community.

I understand "work hardening" can achieve a change, but the question is whether or not normal musical vibrations can, over time, cause work hardening (or any other rearrangement of the lattice).  If that were the case, then I wold expect to find industrial metal treatment devices that operate on the principle of vibration.

[Eastcheap]

Can somebody please post a link to a respected source that explains how vibrations in sheet metal at room temperature can change molecular arrangement?

Well, it falls a bit short of your requirements inasmuch as neither the technology nor the source is all that well-respected, and it doesn't address sheet metal, but you might start with:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibratory_stress_relief

There's a good deal of controversy surrounding VSR, but most appears to be not about whether it does something, but whether it works as advertised.

The theory seems sound enough:  Take a chuck of already ductile metal and give it a good shake.  Isolated dislocational stresses "want" to return to an equilibrium state anyway, so it shouldn't take too much energy to nudge them there.

I understand "work hardening" can achieve a change, but the question is whether or not normal musical vibrations can, over time, cause work hardening

It's hard to see how.  Work hardening requires a fair amount of plastic deformation.

[actikid]

The theory seems sound enough:  Take a chuck of already ductile metal and give it a good shake.  Isolated dislocational stresses "want" to return to an equilibrium state anyway, so it shouldn't take too much energy to nudge them there.

It isn't clear to me from that description and from the example shown in the Wiki article that anybody is talking about "molecular realignment".  It seems to me that they are talking about stresses at the connection points -- if the joints were not precisely aligned when welded/brazed.  I can certainly see where vibrating the assembly could achieve a similar effect to yanking on the joint to try to bend it a little more into alignment.  And I could see where an analogous thing could take place on a brass instrument -- but it would only affect joints that were assembled with a stress loading (i.e. not well aligned when brazing.) 

I could even see how that might lead to a discernible transformation of the instrument.  But here's the key thing.  That process must be one-way.  In other words, it could only RELIEVE stress.  There is no corollary where vibration could be used to ADD stress.

So I cannot buy the notion that one player could "teach a horn to play badly" and another player could use the same vibration process to "teach the horn to play well".  It cannot go both directions.

[BGuttman]

Maybe you just haven't had the engineering materials training.

Stress is not a uniform condition within the brass sheet.  It usually results from discontinuities in the crystal structure and sometimes these discontinuities are created by building the horn (when stress is placed on the metal to cause it to deform to the shape we want).

So if the molecular stress relief only occurs at the discontinuities, it will allow the source of the stress to relax.

One other feature of metals is something called "cold flow" where over time the discontinuities will try to transform into a more regular structure.  Usually we can hasten such action by heating to a phase change followed by a slow cooling (annealing).  It is possible that the action of a vibration at the right frequency can also make the molecules realign.  But this is going to be a slow process at best.

When they were first touting the cryogenic process to relieve stress it was observed that the process had little effect on a 20 year old instrument while it made a big difference on a very recent one.  This leads to the possibility that a cold flow can fix the stresses, but you have to wait a LONG time.

[actikid]

This leads to the possibility that a cold flow can fix the stresses, but you have to wait a LONG time.

Possibly, but would you agree that any of the processes discussed on this thread are necessarily one-way -- in the direction of RELIEVING stress?

[BGuttman]

Possibly, but would you agree that any of the processes discussed on this thread are necessarily one-way -- in the direction of RELIEVING stress?

Absolutely.  I've never seen the vibrations of playing introduce additional stresses.  Of course if you bang the bell against a brick wall or smash it with a mouthpiece, those are things that can create stresses.

[Euphanasia]

But isn't that the argument that's being made in Svenne's example? That somehow, a new player's style can induce some form of alteration which is observable, but which  can be reversed if the horn is returned to its original owner?

[svenlarsson]

I do not think that would change the intonation though .

[actikid]

But isn't that the argument that's being made in Svenne's example? That somehow, a new player's style can induce some form of alteration which is observable, but which  can be reversed if the horn is returned to its original owner?

That is my point.  You cannot use vibration to make a change and then use another vibration to reverse it.  The process (if there is ANY process at all) is one of RELIEVING STRESS.  That cannot be a 2-way thing.

If somebody believes there is a real two-way process at work here, then it cannot be about relieving stress.  It must be something else, and it would be good to propose a hypothesis that does not involve relieving stress.

[lingon]

...and it would be good to propose a hypothesis that does not involve relieving stress...

Ok, but then what is happening, why does the horns behave this way?
One thing that just beats me is if you blow cigarette smoke in a horn and then play with the smoke inside the horn, the whole instrument, not just some tones, does temporarily play much lower. So, does that indicate something that could be useful for explaining Svenne's example? Maybe not becuase it affected all tones... 

[actikid]

One thing that just beats me is if you blow cigarette smoke in a horn and then play with the smoke inside the horn, the whole instrument, not just some tones, does temporarily play much lower.

I have never heard that, but I don't smoke.

If you blow smoke into the horn and then *I* play it, would the notes be lower for me?  I bet not. 

My guess is that the cigarette has temporarily messed with your embouchure.  I know if I play the flute for a minute, it takes me a bit of time to get everything reset on the trombone.  I could easily see the same thing happening if you are puffing on a cigarette, and I could also see that affecting your breath support for a minute or two.

One normally associates cold air with flatness.  If anything I'd expect cigarette smoke to be slightly warmer than your normal air, so on that basis, the pitch should be higher if anything.

I can't think of a good reason why smoke particles would slow the speed of the wave inside the instrument, but maybe there is something to that.

[lingon]

...If you blow smoke into the horn and then *I* play it, would the notes be lower for me?  I bet not... 

Yes it would, as long as there is smoke in the instrument.

...My guess is that the cigarette has temporarily messed with your embouchure.  I know if I play the flute for a minute, it takes me a bit of time to get everything reset on the trombone...

Well, I think that is something completely different, with the switch of instruments that is.

...I could easily see the same thing happening if you are puffing on a cigarette, and I could also see that affecting your breath support for a minute or two...

I cannot think it has to do with the breath support because then it, as you say, would affect the sound for at least a short period after you blown out the smoke. But as soon as the smoke is evacuated from the horn, it is back to normal. 

Well, I do not smoke now either so I can not duplicate the effect for the moment. But I did a long time ago and as mentioned do not think that it did/will affect either the embouchure or breath in such a drastic way. We talk half tones here. However, the smoke does not necessarily have to be blown in the horn at the same time, the same breath, as you play. It works the same if you blow smoke in the horns attachment, close the valve, play something on the horn, perfectly in tune everything. Then open the valve so the smoke will be released, and play. Everything is lower. Then when the smoke is gone the horn is back to normal again.

Wasn't there some experimentation with playing after inhaling helium too, and if I remember even that sounded a 'bit odd'?

Does this maybe indicate that the 'smell' of or the chemical mix of air in the players breath would affect how the instrument behaves, especially on single tones, which in some way correlate with Svenne's thoughts about liquids flowing in the tubes?!
Even more

[actikid]

Yes it would, as long as there is smoke in the instrument.

How would smoke particles have the effect of slowing down the sound waves?  I'm having trouble grasping the mechanism here.

[octavposaune]

Hi Guys,

Air density does effect how trombones work.  Altitude, temperature effect the pitch that will be produced through a given length of tubing.

When I was in a physics of music class we demonstrated this effect by checking the observable pitch of instruments within a 70 degree building and going outside (20 degree F) and checking the pitch differences before the instruments cooled off immediately.  The pitches were immediately lower.  Including the tuning forks.

I theorize that the smoke might effect the density of air column and therefore change the pitch in a very small way.  Possibly noticeable to an advanced player. 

Benn

[svenlarsson]

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0708/fig4.jpg 

http://la.trompette.free.fr/Smith/IOA/material.htm   

For the interested.

When a tone is played on a brass instrument there is patterns of pressure and anti pressure along the tube that is standing still as long as the tone is played.
There is always objects in the tubing like water drops and stuff that is blown into the horn.
As long as you are playing the tone objects are gathering in places where it is anti pressure.

Many of the posters insist of discussing some kind of change in the metal like the "molecular realignment".
 
That is another story I would say since that does not change the air column profile in the instrument. Object in the horn does. When the trombone is cleaned the intonation does change, those who does clean the instrument rarely notice that easy when the horn is finally cleaned.

Sound is traveling in air. No air, no sound.
Cold air, flat sound, warm air sharp sound, dry air humid air it all makes a difference.

A low piano string is single string, still the sound from that single string does fluctuate a little, the inharmonic partials in the string vibrations together with the overtone series in the air makes that effect.

A plastic trombone or a wood trombone sounds like a trombone as long as the profile of the air column is right.

“I theorize that the smoke might effect the density of air column and therefore change the pitch in a very small way.  Possibly noticeable to an advanced player. “

I do think many of us x-smokers have noticed that effect, I say you really don’t have to be very advanced to notice that, a semitone.

[blast]

Sorry to drag up an old thread.... but.... I was teaching today... my student complained that the middle C on his Getzen bass had never felt good, and it had a slightly different sound. I thought he was right about the sound so I took it and played that C a good number of times, including very loud. I gave the instrument back to him and asked him to play the C. His face was a picture.... shock.... the C played fine for him now, and sounded good.
Why and How ???
I neither know nor care. In the mind or in the metal ? I doubt we will ever know, but trombones seem to like being blown right in the center of the pitch and doing it well seems to have an effect.
Seems to....
Ha ! Ha ! Ha !

Chris Stearn

[gbedinger]

I have that problem with the 5th position in-the-staff F# at moderate to high volumes.  I keep telling myself to play through the note, but it's always been a little squirrely.  Can't figure out why.  Chris, you may have found another career as a horn-whisperer.

Geo

[WaltTrombone]

I have that problem with the 5th position in-the-staff F# at moderate to high volumes.  I keep telling myself to play through the note, but it's always been a little squirrely.  Can't figure out why.  Chris, you may have found another career as a horn-whisperer.

Geo

This note is not too surprising. 5th position is probably the least reliable for most trombonists, and couple that with a lot of players having an embouchure break right around there, and the potential for being squirrelly is way up on the charts. Could be a horn problem, but you could check that by just trying another horn, or swap out a different bell, slide, leadpipe.

[gbedinger]

This note is not too surprising. 5th position is probably the least reliable for most trombonists, and couple that with a lot of players having an embouchure break right around there, and the potential for being squirrelly is way up on the charts. Could be a horn problem, but you could check that by just trying another horn, or swap out a different bell, slide, leadpipe.

Thanks, Walt.  It's me.  I've repeated the problem on other horns, alas.

[artyart]

Sorry to drag up an old thread.... but.... I was teaching today... my student complained that the middle C on his Getzen bass had never felt good, and it had a slightly different sound. I thought he was right about the sound so I took it and played that C a good number of times, including very loud. I gave the instrument back to him and asked him to play the C. His face was a picture.... shock.... the C played fine for him now, and sounded good.
Why and How ???
I neither know nor care. In the mind or in the metal ? I doubt we will ever know, but trombones seem to like being blown right in the center of the pitch and doing it well seems to have an effect.
Seems to....
Ha ! Ha ! Ha !

Chris Stearn

We play the horn, the horn doesn't play us..... at least most of the time ( ).... I really don't think you can "teach" a piece of brass to do much of anything without some metalworking being involved.....We can teach ourselves how to play in tune though.

[blast]

We play the horn, the horn doesn't play us..... at least most of the time ( ).... I really don't think you can "teach" a piece of brass to do much of anything without some metalworking being involved.....We can teach ourselves how to play in tune though.

Indeed. Another quirk.... one of my Holtons has a weak high A (due to an in-line conversion). If I try to play that note on the horn it is very hard, but blowing the note on one of the good Holtons, I can return to the problem horn and nail the A. That makes easier sense, I suppose.
Another of my students bought a very nice modern 62H... after six months he started to have problems with tone and focus. When I tried the trombone it had lost all center and felt dull. We messed with different leadpipes, cleaned it, checked the valves... nothing could bring it back.
Don't you just love the trombone ?

Chris Stearn

[lingon]

...Another of my students bought a very nice modern 62H... after six months he started to have problems with tone and focus. When I tried the trombone it had lost all center and felt dull. We messed with different leadpipes, cleaned it, checked the valves... nothing could bring it back...

Have you tried the great destress procedure? Pack it up with a layer of sheet plastic around and put it in a very thin box. Send it via Parcelpost around the globe. Then when it is back again, presumably it takes much less space, you start the work to get it back in shape to look like a trombone again. After that I believe it will sing like new again.   

 

[Eastcheap]

Chris, you may have found another career as a horn-whisperer.

I think I'll send him all of mine and get him to blow some loud 5th-7th fifth partials. 

[blast]

Have you tried the great destress procedure? Pack it up with a layer of sheet plastic around and put it in a very thin box. Send it via Parcelpost around the globe. Then when it is back again, presumably it takes much less space, you start the work to get it back in shape to look like a trombone again. After that I believe it will sing like new again.   

 

I think the Holton 169 that is coming will be a good example of that... tracking says it has an incorrect address.... help  

Chris Stearn

[blast]

I think I'll send him all of mine and get him to blow some loud 5th-7th fifth partials. 

....but I didn't say that I actually changed anything..... was it in the instrument or the mind ? 

Chris Stearn

[lingon]

I think the Holton 169 that is coming will be a good example of that... tracking says it has an incorrect address.... help  

Oops, that sounds scary. Let us hope that it will at least arrive, so you will have an object test the destress method with.

[WaltTrombone]

We play the horn, the horn doesn't play us..... at least most of the time ( ).... I really don't think you can "teach" a piece of brass to do much of anything without some metalworking being involved.....We can teach ourselves how to play in tune though.

Indeed, many of the problems we have start when we stop listening to what our ears tell us is the right position, and listen, instead, to what our lying arms and eyes and preconceived notions tell us.