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[MaestroHound]

By chance, I have had a Yamaha 350C (compact trombone) in my possession for the last few days. When I first tried it, it did not play well at all. No wonder, the water key cork was on its way out and there was a leak.

The day after, I replaced the cork, and it still played very out of tune - partials did not line up well at all. Probably it had been played with the leak (and thus with very questionable intonation) for quite a while before it came to me. Even low and middle B-flats did not match each other (middle B-flat way flat compared with low B-flat).

I then played it with some other people for a couple of hours, kind of forcing it to play at the correct intonation, "lipping" up and down with somewhat consistent slide positions. And just after a couple of hours, the horn plays much better in tune.

Does this really happen, or am I imagining things?? I mean, horns change over time, but just after a couple of hours??

[GetzenBassPlayer]

Maybe you changed (adjusted)?

[octavposaune]

Yes you were imagining things. 

[Thomas Matta]

Sounds to me like you just needed a little time to figure out the horn.

It's not learning you, you are learning it.

[Burgerbob]

Especially since it's a strange horn (in C first, using the valve to be in Bb-who's ever played a C trombone?) it's gotta be the soft machine changing.

[MaestroHound]

Seems like we have a consensus. It was just really dramatic change. I still play my "normal" horns just like before, too (I mean, it's not like I now over-compensate on other horns, which would have been tricky!). I remember reading how Denis Wick "taught a student's horn how to play high D" (or something like that) by playing that note over and over again, so I thought it might have been a similar phenomenon. Maybe not - and in that case, I am amazed at the human's ability to adjust!

[Dukesboneman]

Are you walking your dog, or is he walking you, you just don`t know it.

[BGuttman]

Are you walking your dog, or is he walking you, you just don`t know it.

The difference is the dog is a living, thinking creature.

I don't believe trombones have any sentience.  We provide that.

Note: my dog is out for herself.  She's checking the neighborhood to see who's been here and leaving calling cards for them.

[Bonefide]

Seems like we have a consensus. It was just really dramatic change. I still play my "normal" horns just like before, too (I mean, it's not like I now over-compensate on other horns, which would have been tricky!). I remember reading how Denis Wick "taught a student's horn how to play high D" (or something like that) by playing that note over and over again, so I thought it might have been a similar phenomenon. Maybe not - and in that case, I am amazed at the human's ability to adjust!

I bet Denis Wick could play a high D on any playable horn. Student just needed to hear it done to believe that they could reproduce it.

[WaltTrombone]

On the couple of 350Cs I've played, I haven't noticed the partials lining up too weirdly, but then again, I'm always playing on different horns, so I'm used to adjusting, within reason. These were reasonable enough, I guess. I DID think that they played better in C (valve pressed) than in Bb, but that had more to do with the change in resistance with the valve in or out.

I can adjust to a totally new horn in maybe a day or two, but I've found that I need a month or three of playing it to make it as reliable to use as my older horns. Once I've got that dialed in, I can go back and forth with a minimum of adjustment time, provided I get to put in some time on the different horns on a regular basis.

[actikid]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dummy

[Duffle]

I bet Denis Wick could play a high D on any playable horn. Student just needed to hear it done to believe that they could reproduce it.

....... and some unplayable ones too!.........

[Eastcheap]

I bet Denis Wick could play a high D on any playable horn. Student just needed to hear it done to believe that they could reproduce it.

I think there's a little more to it than that.  I also think you could accomplish much the same thing by whacking the horn in the right place with a toffee hammer...but you'd have to find that place.

In this case, like Walt said, you should probably be making a Bb vs. F or C vs. Bb comparison, not Bb vs. Bb, if you see what I mean.

[JP]

Good trombonists do not play with the slide or chops, they play music with their ears.

[actikid]

Good trombonists do not play with the slide or chops, they play music with their ears.

Exactly.  I'm not saying the horn can't ever be significant, but a great player knows how to play music into the instrument and knows what he or she expects to come out.  If the instrument requires a little adjustment, well, the great players can do that pretty much at the subconscious level.

And if you asked them how they had to adjust, they might not be able to give a very good answer.

[Lawrie]

Good trombonists do not play with the slide or chops, they play music with their ears.

Ya know, I've been trying for years and years to play by ear... 


... but the tone sucks big time, just can't seem to get the buzz right...  Not enough air I guess.

 
 

[BGuttman]

Ya know, I've been trying for years and years to play by ear... 


... but the tone sucks big time, just can't seem to get the buzz right...  Not enough air I guess.

 
 

You really should have a look at Ben Patterson's (bonedaddy) avatar...

[Bonefide]

You really should have a look at Ben Patterson's (bonedaddy) avatar...

better yet, watch this! (skip to ~2:50 if you have a short attention span).

[Blowero]

The day after, I replaced the cork, and it still played very out of tune - partials did not line up well at all. Probably it had been played with the leak (and thus with very questionable intonation) for quite a while before it came to me. Even low and middle B-flats did not match each other (middle B-flat way flat compared with low B-flat).

First of all, the partials aren't supposed to "line up". The partials are in the overtone series, which is a mathematical division of the sound wave. The natural overtone series is not at all the same as tempered pitch, which is what you are using if you are playing tonal music. The correct way to play the trombone is to adjust the positions so that each note is in tune. The trombone does not have 7 positions; it has a nearly infinite number of positions. Check out Robert Marsteller "Basic Routines" for a chart that explains the difference between the natural overtone series and tempered pitch.

Second, ANY trombone you play will produce an imperfect overtone series. There is no such thing as a perfectly in tune trombone. Personally, I can't remember ever playing a trombone where middle Bb wasn't flat in comparison to low Bb. I play low Bb further out on the slide than middle Bb on every trombone I own. It's a very common condition, and does not indicate a flaw in the instrument. Octaves are not necessarily going to be perfectly in tune with each other on a trombone.

[Lawrie]

You really should have a look at Ben Patterson's (bonedaddy) avatar...

Yup, it's a good one