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[BrianP]

Hi all,

I'm a longtime member of the forum, away from things for a few years and now very excited to be back.  Anyway, what I've been wanting to do is modify my 3b to make it more of a Chameleon horn - before I start, I know that it will never be a classical/bass bone/etc etc etc, and it's not my main horn or my backup, so I'm not too worried about things not coming out exactly right.

What I really want to do is add an f-attachment and pull the leadpipes and have a horn that I can comfortably play (I haven't met a .547 or even a .525 that I'm friends with-probably my shortcoming!) and that I can grab for a situation that is undefined, or for the random light classical/church/pop/rock/salsa gig that comes up.  The easiest way to add the f att, I think, would be to just buy a 3bf, or 3bf bell, but I was trying to figure out alternative methods. That's half the fun of why we're here!  I originally thought of going to Chuck at the Brass Lab and asking him to add an attachment, but I was thinking that by the time he bought/found some parts and did the work, it would be cheaper to find a used 3bf bell.  But here's my new thought for a more budget-friendly approach, as 3bf's dont seem to be as available/cost effective as they used to be.  What do you all think of finding a king tempo (607/608?) with an f att and having the bell section fitted to my 3b slide.  I know theyre .525 bores - what effect would this have on the sound?  I've heard some people like the 606, 7, 8's and say they sound pretty good.  What would the sound difference be between a tempo bell and new (2103) 3b bell?  (Broad, ridiculous question I know...)  This is SO a question for DJ!!!

As far as playing everything under the sun on this horn, I know that's a ridiculous pipe dream, both for the horn and for myself!!!  But I thought it would be a fun project for this spare 3b lying about that I usually use for pop/rock gigs.  I would have the lead pipe pulled at the brass lab and maybe get 2-one for bright, loud projection and one for broad, darker playing.  Getting some of Chuck's lead pipes for my other horns was the BEST move I've ever made.  Any thoughts on brass lab lead pipe models?  I think there was a list about at one point on the forum, but I haven't been able to find it...

Any way, that's a really long rambling post with no clear questions...sorry for that!  Any info/comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,
BrianP

[Exzaclee]

Understand the following is only my opinion and not based on any hard science one way or the other, just my own personal experiences:

I played a 3BF., a 3B+ w/F, a 4BF and for a short time a 36B.  Of those four, the 3BF was in my opinion the best for the work I did.  The overwhelming majority of my work has been in Jazz, Salsa, Blues and general commercial settings.  I found the larger horns either A) didn't blend as well with the trumpet(s) without a lot of work or B) were more taxing over the long term on the more taxing gigs if I wasn't hitting the gym everyday.  The main drawback with the 3BF is the valve:  it feels quite stuffy in its stock configuration, something you'll probably try to fix with larger mouthpieces or swapping lead pipes.  Now the conventional wisdom is to get the rotor ports opened up, which works if you have a good tech for that sort of thing.  For anything like that I would send to Eric Edwards in Dallas... depending on where you live you may have a guy. 

The 3BF I liked the most was a sterling belled horn I sold to DJ a while back.  It was a great horn but the sterling bell was too heavy for what i was doing.  I have another with a yellow bell I plan to have modified when I have the bread.

In a perfect world, the Williams 7 or a Shires .508 or .500 with an F would be the perfect all-around horn for the commercial player.  Hornguys has a modern copy of the Williams 7 that is really pretty, although I have not played it.  I bet it's a great horn- Kanstul makes good stuff.

Every great now and again a 2B with an F att comes up.  I've seen a couple over the last few years.  I don't know if these were after-market conversions or custom jobs done at the king factory.  Either way, I'd love to have one laying around.  I do a lot of work on 2Bs, particularly if the gig is demanding and I need a small horn with a big blow. 

[actikid]

If by "chameleon" you are looking for a way to be able to vary the timbre more, I think the 3B is not the best starting point.  I find them pretty rigid, compared to something like a 6h or something.  For the amount of money you are looking at to add a valve system, you could just about buy a new modular horn.

[Trav1s]

This horn came to mind as I initially read your post:  Kanstul 760

http://www.kanstul.net/detail.php?pass_search=760.0000&pass_instrument=Trombone

[Matt K]

You also might want to consider a YSL356G depending on your budget. I have one I'd be willing to part with if you're interested.  It's .500/.530 with F attachment.


I was also interested in getting the broken 3BF bell section that DJ was selling and making it modular with a .500 bore horn I had, but he either must have sold it or the rotor was broken.

You also might want to consider getting a Kanstul rotor (I don't know how expensive they are, but I've heard they're reasonable, an they offer a .500 afaik).

[BrianP]

Thanks for the input!  I've heard good things about the Kanstul, but I'm done a LOT of commercial/general biz playing on a 3b, (and I have one!) so I was hoping to use it since I'm already accustomed to it, know its capabilities/shortcomings when I'm playing, etc. 

actikid - Without opening up a can of worms (uh-oh...) I actually feel the exact opposite way about the 3b, especially when compared to the smaller Conns (!).  I love 6H's, and they're more of what I like for my main horn (jazz), but for a more all-around horn, I personally feel the 3b has a little more of an edge.

Exzaclee - I actually read quite a few of your posts discussing the 3bF before I posted, and I felt like they confirmed my feelings that this would be an idea at least worth looking into!  The horns isn't any stuffier when not using the F attachment is it?  I guessed it would be a little stuffier than most F's, what with the .508.

Anyone have experience with any 607/608 w/ F attachments?  Looks like the attachment is same/similar to the 3b+w/F (.525), has an 8" bell...this might be the cheapest way to go and I've read a lot on the forums about people liking their sound.  Any comparison between the 607/08 and 3b soundwise? Might also help to get a .525 valve and clear up some of the 3bF valve stuffiness Exzaclee mentioned...

Thanks as always,
BrianP

[BGuttman]

Back when I was a kid the 3B-F was considered a GREAT all-around horn.

Only problem I found was that the trigger notes weren't that full sounding; probably because the horn is marginally too small to play down there.  But you could get notes, and for things like theater and some commercial work the thing worked pretty well (but not as 2nd Trombone in "Man of La Mancha" - that takes a REAL bass).

The 3B is subject to the same problems as other rotor horns: if the valve isn't aligned properly or is dry it can sound stuffy.  Also, you can try a different leadpipe and/or having the rotor ports bored out a little.  I played one with a relatively large mouthpiece (Bach 4C) so that would help with the lower register as well.

I don't know if the King 3B slide will mate up with the 607 bell.  If it does, that's probably as good a cheap way into a 3B with F as any.  But if it were me I'd go find a "real" 3B-F bell section.

[BrianP]

Hi Bruce, thanks for the input.  Mating the 607 to a 3b would be a custom proposition.  I might agree, in that if I did it, I would always secretly still want a 3bf bell...after hearing the opinions here I'm thinking of getting the lead pipe pulled and then looking for a well-priced 3bf bell or 607/8f.  I'm in no big rush, other than the nagging desire to see what I can end up with after this project!

-BrianP

[TromboneMonkey]

Every great now and again a 2B with an F att comes up.  I've seen a couple over the last few years.  I don't know if these were after-market conversions or custom jobs done at the king factory.  Either way, I'd love to have one laying around.  I do a lot of work on 2Bs, particularly if the gig is demanding and I need a small horn with a big blow. 

Gotta slap a tru-bore on one of those bad boys and run with it! 

[BrianP]

Hahaha if I ever saw a 2b with an F attachment I'd be roaming the house for things to sell to get some funds.  It would be too cool, even just for the novelty of it!

-BrianP

[Exzaclee]

The horns isn't any stuffier when not using the F attachment is it?  I guessed it would be a little stuffier than most F's, what with the .508.

The one i had felt fine when the F wasn't engaged.  The stuffiness probably would have gone away with the ports opened up.

And a herrick H-8 Pipe?  Maybe... but if you already like how the slide blows you may not want to mess around with pulling pipes unless you have another slide. 

Gotta slap a tru-bore on one of those bad boys and run with it! 

Challah!

[CharlieB]

I think the original idea was to experiment by just attaching a 3B slide to a 607f valve/bell section, and changing a leadpipe. Valve and bell from .525 horn mated to .508 slide.

There's a 607f horn on ebay now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-Trombone-607F-F-attachment-/251004479049?pt=Brass_Instruments&hash=item3a71086649

[TromboneMonkey]

I think the original idea was to experiment by just attaching a 3B slide to a 607f valve/bell section, and changing a leadpipe. Valve and bell from .525 horn mated to .508 slide.

There's a 607f horn on ebay now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-Trombone-607F-F-attachment-/251004479049?pt=Brass_Instruments&hash=item3a71086649

Eh.  I played on one of these that Noah loaned me over the past several days... it's not on the same level as a 3bf or Williams 7.  It's really a student horn.  Pretty unwieldy for advanced playing.  But for a student it's a GREAT axe: easy to produce a solid even sound right off the bat. 

[Stan]

I know you said no big horns but...

A Bach 36 straight or convertible with a LW slide is quite the chameleon.  Just about the only thing I wouldn't try with mine is extended lead in old swing band music.  A 12Cish piece makes it a small horn.  My Alessi 3M makes it a big horn.  Love that flexibility.

Stan

[BrianP]

trombonemonkey -

Thanks for the input, I'll hold out for a 3b/f bell after hearing that.

Stan-

I played on an LT36BO and then an LT36R (sterling plus), and for some reason once I moved on I never really looked back.  I also know I said no large bores, but when I stop and think about it, you've got a point.  The sterling 36 was really nice and could function in a variety of settings.  I wouldn't mind a sterling 36 with a trigger for this role, if they weren't so ridiculously expensive. 

Side note - Way back in high school I suffered through an All-State concert where I was put on bass trombone parts for a song or two, with my 36BO.  Somebody in charge mustn't have known that a trigger doesn't necessarily mean bass trombone...that said, even though it's FAR from a bass bone (I know, I know, it's against all known religions to suggest playing bass bone parts on anything other than a bass bone, even not a .547, I completely agree myself), I think the horn could have done a much better job than I did... 

[daveyboy37]

Well, I always remember that that jack of all trades is a master of none. With mouthpiece choice and leadpipe switching alone you can get quite a bit of different sounds out of some instruments. It is really hard though to get one trombone to do everything, though you can fake it to some degree.

[BrianP]

Hi DaveyBoy:

I do agree with you - as I've said, I don't expect anything close to a classical or bass bone to come out of this.  But for a horn to grab when there's an unknown situation/travel/various styles or parts, I think the concept is at least worth exploring.  Also, I personally feel very uncomfortable with the idea of switching mouthpieces, though I do agree with lead pipes making a big difference.  Maybe the concept should be called a horn you can "fake it" on!

-BrianP

[octavposaune]

Hi All,

Here is some technical information.  King 3B pluses have essentially indentical bell sections to regular 3Bs, there is one critical difference and that is the slide reciever.  On Kings it is a one piece brace assembly, and getting a 3B slide to fit a 3B plus would require changing out the whole brace assembly.  The part is not too cheap and the labor and loss of lacquer is a consideration.

I have measured a few 3B F attachment bores recently and they measure out at .530 ID of the F attachment tubing.  The rotor actually doesn't need to be milled out.  It is very well machined with good radiuses within the rotor core itself.  King is one of the only manufacturers that made rotors with really good ports prior to the alternative valve craze stared in the 80's.  There valve bores on the 4-6-7-8Bs were are the same bore as the ID of the slide bore.  This is not common practice, most F attachments are larger than the slide bore of the horn.  On a typical large bore tenor the ID is .562"  the same as the slide bore of a bass trombone.  On a bass trombone it is typically .593 on current models of bass trombones (Shires is a little smaller, I don't know how much).  That is a difference of .015", and .031" respectively. The 3Bs F attachment is .021" bigger (on the examples I measured)  But you are still blowing into a small bore horn with F, which will cause back pressure build up.  You can learn to overcome this issue and play fluidly down low, but the resonance will never equal a larger horn.  I know this is not the goal you are trying to set.

King bells are pretty much all the same, regardless of student or pro horns.  They are all well made, of the same design and often made on the same mandrel.  The slide tubes are the same quality and a 606 is 80% King 3B with a .500 bore.  The main differences being the cork barrels and bracing are different.  So saying a 607 bell section is vastly inferior to a professional King when most of the components are interchangeable is strange to me, the slide however may have something to do with it.  King 3B pluses are not common, nor are they incredibly popular.  There may have simply been less developement of the leadpipe and intergration of the .525" bore components to the rest of the original 3B bell section parts.  The 608 from what I have been told is just a gold brass version of the 607.

I bet DJ has a 3BF bell section lying around if you are really interested in procuring a bell section.

Everyone don't forget, there are dog instruments of every make, so don't let one bad example get you down.  I was ruined on 61/2ALs for 20 years until I figured out the one I had was a fluke super bright example (DJ now has it).

Benn

[TromboneMonkey]

You are correct, most of the unwieldy feeling I got in playing the 607 seemed to be from "the blow" and the weight of the slide, if I had to assess it.  The bell wasn't any heavier than a 3b bell.  The slide was very heavy, relative to what I've come to expect.