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[Bassbonebuster]

Which trombone pros's showcase an efficient pivot in all registers? What type of pivot do they have? I would have asked Doug Elliott directly, but I wanted as much input as possible. Feel free to share links if I've overlooked this topic in my forum search.

[AxSlinger7String]

Not sure about pivots specifically, however:

Center City Brass Quintet recently did a masterclass/recital at my university, and when they performed I immediately was struck by Mr. Ko-ichiro Yamamoto's embouchure.  Every time he put the horn to his face he set up his chops and THEN engaged the mouthpiece - consistently setting up exactly the same also - and the movement overall seemed extremely efficient and controlled.

[TromboneMonkey]

Are you talking about Reinhardt? 


I think the most obvious type III is Tommy Dorsey.  You can even see it in his videos with his downward horn angle (and/or tipped-up head angle).  Not very many of us are this type.


Bill Watrous is the quintessential type IIIA, in my mind.  His mouthpiece is, as he says it "right under his nose".  Yet, he uses a small mouthpiece which is uncharacteristic of IIIA players, as it inhibits low register.  Luckily for all of us who have listened to his near-perfection over the years, he spends almost all of his time in the high register.  Joe Alessi is also a IIIA; hence his preference for gargantuan mouthpieces.  This is kinda why it cracks me up when cats decide to play a 2g-sized thing because he does.  Not normal!


A lot of us are IIIB, myself included, which is a half-and-half to slightly-more-towards-the-chin.  We dig smaller pieces, generally.  Professionals... well I know that Terry Cravens is a IIIB, having studied with him.  He is the one who helped me figure out that I was of this type.  I'm not sure of others, but as I understand it this is the most common type.

[Bassbonebuster]

Yes i'm referring to Reinhardt pivot types.

[Doug Elliott]

First of all, I do not use the word "pivot" because close to 100% of the time the word is misinterpreted.  Very few people, including even some students of Reinhardt, really understand what he meant by that word.  So I don't use it except when talking with fellow Reinhardt students who DO understand it.

I'll contribute more to this discussion later.

[Bassbonebuster]

Doug,

My use of the word "pivot" is basically a lack for a better known "one word" term to label Dr. Reinhardt's embouchure motion types. I look forward to your input.

[Doug Elliott]

Which trombone pros's showcase an efficient pivot in all registers? What type of pivot do they have? I would have asked Doug Elliott directly, but I wanted as much input as possible. Feel free to share links if I've overlooked this topic in my forum search.

Without singling anyone out, I think most of the very top players have efficient and mostly correct embouchure motions.  In addition to their musicianship, that's how they got where they are without having problems.  The players who have incorrect, inaccurate, and unnecessary motions either don't get that far, or their outstanding musicianship dominates until their chops become unpredictable and break down.

[GetzenBassPlayer]

Not sure about pivots specifically, however:

Center City Brass Quintet recently did a masterclass/recital at my university, and when they performed I immediately was struck by Mr. Ko-ichiro Yamamoto's embouchure.  Every time he put the horn to his face he set up his chops and THEN engaged the mouthpiece - consistently setting up exactly the same also - and the movement overall seemed extremely efficient and controlled.

That is not actually true. I live in the Seattle where he plays and have been to many of his masterclasses and sat next to his students. He does not set his embouchure then engages the mouthpiece, he does the opposite. I have seen him work with students and that is one the things he tells them not to do.

[Bassbonebuster]

Without singling anyone out, I think most of the very top players have efficient and mostly correct embouchure motions.

The forum gets a lot of questions about what mouthpiece, horn, case, leadpipe, etc the pros use. I'm curious about their embouchure types in the same way. Are you not wanting to single anyone out as more efficient than others, or is it considered improper to discuss players embouchure type?

[Doug Elliott]

If someone comes to me for a lesson, I analyze and diagnose their problems or inefficiencies and teach them how to improve their playing, often with dramatic results.

You're basically asking me to analyze players who have not asked for my advice, and who I may only be able to see on YouTube.  It is a bit improper.  I try to not give advice unless I'm asked for it.

[Bassbonebuster]

You're basically asking me to analyze players who have not asked for my advice, and who I may only be able to see on YouTube.  It is a bit improper.  I try to not give advice unless I'm asked for it.

I didn't intend for anyone to speculate about anyone's playing. I assumed that there were some pros who type was known by you or other members of the forum. In asking about efficiency, I read a post that you replied to at trumpetherald.com "Vizzutti is just about as perfect of a IIIB as you can get." This lead me to believe that there were trombone players that illustrate better examples of each type than others.  I was simply curious. I agree that it would improper to label someone you haven't worked with.

[Doug Elliott]

If you want an example of a perfect IIIA, look at Joe Alessi.  There are more IIIA's around than any other type.  This is the type I refer to as "Very High Placement" because a well-developed IIIA looks like that, with a lot more top lip.  However, appearances can be deceiving - there are lots of players with that embouchure type who may not appear to use that much top lip.  I should post pictures of my own embouchure when I was 19... it looked very much 50/50 but it sure doesn't now.  My type has not changed.

I have not specifically watched very many of the current top players, so I'm not sure who I would use as an example of a IIIB.  Look for lower horn angles and 50/50 to 60/40 plcement. 

In the orchestral world I'm only aware of two upstream embouchures, Blair Bollinger and Rusty McKinney.

[timothy42b]

David Wilken's article:
http://www.trombone.org/articles/library/viewarticles.asp?ArtID=240

lists examples of players for each embouchure type in the embouchure section.

[Doug Elliott]

He doesn't list any trombonists there.

Jay Friedman and Ralph Sauer both have very typical IIIB playing angles, but it's hard to find pictures or videos of either one playing so I can't be sure.

[Wilktone]

David Wilken's article:
http://www.trombone.org/articles/library/viewarticles.asp?ArtID=240

lists examples of players for each embouchure type in the embouchure section.

Take those examples with a grain of salt.  I have since learned that some of the information I got wasn't all that accurate.  For example, I think Kai Winding is a straight type IV, not a IVA.  I don't remember exactly now but I think a couple of other players were mistyped by some former Reinhardt students who helped me with that article.  On my blog I sometimes play "Guess the Embouchure Type," but I try to make it clear that it's easy to be wrong when you're just looking at a video and it's hard to guess with some players.  Sometimes you can't clearly see the player's embouchure motion/pivot, so I will guess based on mouthpiece placement and horn angle.  Like Doug mentioned above, sometimes those can be deceptive.

Personally, I think it's more valuable to look closely at players around you in person.  When you do this you'll have a better chance of being accurate at their type and will start to develop a knack for spotting certain things in a player's embouchure that you know are correct or cause problems.


Dave

[Bassbonebuster]

Personally, I think it's more valuable to look closely at players around you in person. 

How true. I have been paying close attention to my band student, grade 7-12, and I have began to notice tendencies. I can really see the vertical motion a lot more readily. I got a set of clear kelly mouthpieces  and I intend to start looking at their embouchures internally. Right now my observation are for my own learning, ONLY. I hope to learn to teach brass more effectively by correlating what I see with what I read. Hopefully I can better understand some of  Dr. Reinhardt's teachings.


Doug or Dave,

Do you recommend any exercises/techniques that I can do with my brass students that doesn't take Reinhardt certified person to apply? Especially for upstream players, I have a few students I already know are upstream from looking at placement and air direction in the clear mouthpieces.

[Doug Elliott]

The single most important thing you can teach, especially to upstream players, is to form the embouchure firmly and completely BEFORE placing the mouthpiece on it.  And use the muscles below the corners, not above the corners.

It's amazing how many students are upstream... and how few of them continue, largely because someone tells them it's "wrong" and they need to change it - which almost never has a happy ending.

[Bassbonebuster]

What should I tell my up streamers when I have my brass players buzz in class?

[Doug Elliott]

Same as you tell everybody else.  Upstream only happens when the mouthpiece goes on.  Buzzing should still be downstream, the muscles used are the same, and the embouchure formation is virtually the same... it just becomes upstream when you put the mouthpiece low on the embouchure.

[Bassbonebuster]

What about mouthpiece buzzing?