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Author Topic: Paying Attention, America?  (Read 23310 times)
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actikid
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« Reply #20 on: Feb 29, 2012, 04:05PM »

Um,,,,,yeah? Seriously...what? That the economic impact of terrorism pales in comparison to a Katrina or Andrew? Bakatya with your "what chew talking' about, Willis?"
Exactly.  As I say, don't argue with people who can only make one-word arguments.

The art of creating and perpetuating bogeyman is well-practiced throughout human history, but refined to perfection in recent years. 

We create Saddam Hussein. They we make him the Bogeyman.

We create Osama bin Laden, and then make him the Bogeyman (with plenty of cooperation from him).

We (and especially Europe) create Gaddafi, and then we make him the Bogeyman when it suits our ends.

In Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is basically powerless, but doesn't he make a nice Bogeyman?

In all those cases, the actors played right into their roles for us.  And I'm not saying they are harmless, nor are you.  Your thesis (if I might amplify it) is simply that the threat from those Bogeymen is overstated by several orders of magnitude.  And said overstatement is intentional in order to keep public attention off the threats that are clearly far more disastrous, such as the natural ones you cited, and the man-made ones such as The Great Bankster Heist of 2008.

And let's not overlook Chavez, and Noriega before him.  And the Grand Daddy of all Bogeymen, Fidel Castro.  Talk about overstating an extant treat by orders of magnitude ...
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« Reply #21 on: Feb 29, 2012, 04:12PM »

Exactly.  As I say, don't argue with people who can only make one-word arguments.

The art of creating and perpetuating bogeyman is well-practiced throughout human history, but refined to perfection in recent years. 

We create Saddam Hussein. They we make him the Bogeyman.

We create Osama bin Laden, and then make him the Bogeyman (with plenty of cooperation from him).

We (and especially Europe) create Gaddafi, and then we make him the Bogeyman when it suits our ends.

In Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is basically powerless, but doesn't he make a nice Bogeyman?

In all those cases, the actors played right into their roles for us.  And I'm not saying they are harmless, nor are you.  Your thesis (if I might amplify it) is simply that the threat from those Bogeymen is overstated by several orders of magnitude.  And said overstatement is intentional in order to keep public attention off the threats that are clearly far more disastrous, such as the natural ones you cited, and the man-made ones such as The Great Bankster Heist of 2008.
Hussein, bin laden, amanutjob all made themselves boogeymen.  Amanutjob is the face of Iran so d you have any better ideas?
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« Reply #22 on: Feb 29, 2012, 04:13PM »

Hussein, bin laden, amanutjob all made themselves boogeymen.  Amanutjob is the face of Iran so d you have any better ideas?
Any ideas better than using him as a Bogeyman to demagogue a bunch of unrelated issues?

Yeah, basically every idea I've ever had is better than that, even my really bad ideas.
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« Reply #23 on: Mar 01, 2012, 05:50AM »

Why do you think Bush walked away at Tora Bora when he could have ended the whole AlQaeda/ Taliban thing right then and there? They needed their bogeymen to justify their immoral invasion of aggression in Iraq.
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« Reply #24 on: Mar 01, 2012, 06:25AM »

Why do you think Bush walked away at Tora Bora when he could have ended the whole AlQaeda/ Taliban thing right then and there? They needed their bogeymen to justify their immoral invasion of aggression in Iraq.
He didn't walk away from tora bora despite what you have read in the anti Bush chronicles.  I know it's a fantasy that every lefty wants to believe.  Get over it. 
I found one of your sources
http://bush-treason.blogspot.com/2011/05/bush-administration-let-bin-laden-get.html
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« Reply #25 on: Mar 01, 2012, 06:25AM »

Any ideas better than using him as a Bogeyman to demagogue a bunch of unrelated issues?

Yeah, basically every idea I've ever had is better than that, even my really bad ideas.
I'll take that as a no.
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« Reply #26 on: Mar 01, 2012, 07:19AM »

To put this in some perspective, the WTC collapse caused ~3000 deaths immediately, and probably another ~500 among the responders who had to work in life-shortening conditions during the clean-up.  I'm not trying to debate the number.  It is roughly 4000 or 5000.  I'm also not trying to minimize the psychological impact on the country and on New Yorkers in particular.  It was a horrendous event, even if we may never know everything that contributed to that.

But let's compare that to the outcome of the Great Bank Heist of 2008.  This was also cataclysmic on the nation, and actually affected far, far more people in a direct way.  I have great sympathy for anyone who lost a loved one on 9/11, but it did not not affect me personally, and did not personally affect about 280,000,000 Americans.  The Bank Heist of 2008 very definitely affected all of us.  And if body counts are the deciding factor, there is some evidence that this carefully engineered meltdown/bailout event (a clear act of terrorism IMHO) has resulted in a significant increase in suicides.

There are ~35,000 suicides in the US annually.  If the Bank Heist increased the suicide rate by 3%, that is ~1000 suicides a year.  If that continued for a couple of years, we're talking the same magnitude of loss of life as seen on 9/11.  Where is all the angst about that?
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« Reply #27 on: Mar 01, 2012, 07:32AM »

To put this in some perspective, the WTC collapse caused ~3000 deaths immediately, and probably another ~500 among the responders who had to work in life-shortening conditions during the clean-up.  I'm not trying to debate the number.  It is roughly 4000 or 5000.  I'm also not trying to minimize the psychological impact on the country and on New Yorkers in particular.  It was a horrendous event, even if we may never know everything that contributed to that.

But let's compare that to the outcome of the Great Bank Heist of 2008.  This was also cataclysmic on the nation, and actually affected far, far more people in a direct way.  I have great sympathy for anyone who lost a loved one on 9/11, but it did not not affect me personally, and did not personally affect about 280,000,000 Americans.  The Bank Heist of 2008 very definitely affected all of us.  And if body counts are the deciding factor, there is some evidence that this carefully engineered meltdown/bailout event (a clear act of terrorism IMHO) has resulted in a significant increase in suicides.

There are ~35,000 suicides in the US annually.  If the Bank Heist increased the suicide rate by 3%, that is ~1000 suicides a year.  If that continued for a couple of years, we're talking the same magnitude of loss of life as seen on 9/11.  Where is all the angst about that?
  Yeah, RIGHT.
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« Reply #28 on: Mar 01, 2012, 09:32AM »

Why do you think Bush walked away at Tora Bora when he could have ended the whole AlQaeda/ Taliban thing right then and there? They needed their bogeymen to justify their immoral invasion of aggression in Iraq.
I really, really don't want to believe that ANY American could be this evil, but there just is not any other plausible explanation for it.  And this is not some far-out lefty perspective.  Some of the brass on the ground at the time have intimated as much.

I still want to believe it was gross incompetence.  But when you see everything that followed from that pivotal moment, incompetence cannot explain it.  That administration was highly competent in exploiting those circumstances to accomplish their ends.
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« Reply #29 on: Mar 01, 2012, 10:16AM »

I really, really don't want to believe that ANY American could be this evil, but there just is not any other plausible explanation for it.  And this is not some far-out lefty perspective.  Some of the brass on the ground at the time have intimated as much.

I still want to believe it was gross incompetence.  But when you see everything that followed from that pivotal moment, incompetence cannot explain it.  That administration was highly competent in exploiting those circumstances to accomplish their ends.

I've had a patient in my chair, officer special forces, now a cop,who says otherwise regarding "letting bin laden go".He laughs at the left wing spin.
so do I.
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« Reply #30 on: Mar 01, 2012, 10:32AM »

Why do you think Bush walked away at Tora Bora when he could have ended the whole AlQaeda/ Taliban thing right then and there? They needed their bogeymen to justify their immoral invasion of aggression in Iraq.
Why don't the elected Democrats in congress make more of this?  If people in the Bush administration were purposely negligent in order to prolong the war so that their campaign contributors could make some more dough the Republican devil's way by war profiteering, I'd like to see a congressional investigation.
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« Reply #31 on: Mar 01, 2012, 10:52AM »

Why don't the elected Democrats in congress make more of this?  If people in the Bush administration were purposely negligent in order to prolong the war so that their campaign contributors could make some more dough the Republican devil's way by war profiteering, I'd like to see a congressional investigation.
Ummm.  Because it's not true.  I guess it doesn't matter to dems though.
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« Reply #32 on: Mar 01, 2012, 11:18AM »

Ummm.  Because it's not true.  I guess it doesn't matter to dems though.

You mean like it didn't matter to Cheney and Bush when they trumped up claims that Iraq had WMD and we needed to invade? Evil

Sometimes your selective interpretation of history amazes me.
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« Reply #33 on: Mar 01, 2012, 11:22AM »

Sometimes your selective interpretation of history amazes me.

It shouldn't.
 
It's about as well established a pattern as established patterns get.
 
Maybe the implications are too ugly for you to very easily accept?
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« Reply #34 on: Mar 01, 2012, 11:25AM »


...
 
Maybe the implications are too ugly for you to very easily accept?

I think that may be more the issue. ;-)
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« Reply #35 on: Mar 01, 2012, 11:31AM »

I've had a patient in my chair, officer special forces, now a cop,who says otherwise regarding "letting bin laden go".He laughs at the left wing spin.
so do I.
Was your patient in Tora Bora in this special unit?  If not, he has no more credibility on the subject than you or I have.  But here is reporting from people who were directly involved.  It seems clear enough.
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« Reply #36 on: Mar 01, 2012, 11:37AM »

Maybe the implications are too ugly for you to very easily accept?
The brain of an authoritarian is wired differently from the rest of us.

Here's a little example.  1 AM a couple of nights ago.  I am the second of 4 cars sitting at a stop light waiting to get on the Interstate.  This is an eternally long light.  There are no other cars anywhere -- just the 4 of us waiting.  Finally car #1 makes the left turn on the red light.  I do the same.  I'm sure we both normally obey traffic laws, but there comes a point that duty to authority makes no sense whatsoever.

Car number 3 didn't move.  He was probably horrified of the wanton flaunting of authority he just witnessed.  In my rear view mirror, I could see he was still sitting there when I merged onto the highway over a half-mile away.

The authoritarian mind has no flexibility.
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« Reply #37 on: Mar 01, 2012, 11:46AM »

You mean like it didn't matter to Cheney and Bush when they trumped up claims that Iraq had WMD and we needed to invade? Evil

Sometimes your selective interpretation of history amazes me.
regarding tora bora, no.  Trumped up claims to invade?  We may never know. Your link says nothing we don't know.  Only your imagination at work. 
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« Reply #38 on: Mar 01, 2012, 11:47AM »


It shouldn't.
 
It's about as well established a pattern as established patterns get.
 
Maybe the implications are too ugly for you to very easily accept?
Were you born an ass or did you have to work at it?
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« Reply #39 on: Mar 01, 2012, 11:49AM »

Were you born an ass or did you have to work at it?

Hey!  Watch it!
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