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[actikid]

I do not care about the Chinese. They can do whatever they want. I am speaking of Americans.

It is the same thing.  In both cases we have systems that benefit the ruling few by keeping the wages of the many at the lowest possible levels.  Cheap labor is the goal of the 0.1% in China just as it is in America.  China is a bit better at it that we are, but we are leaning.

[SensitiveJohn]

Why not care about the Chinese?  Isn't exploitation of the Chinese workers just as bad as exploitation of workers anywhere else? Congress should insist that our trading partners meet our minimum wage, worker safety, and environmental rules, etc, for products imported into the United States, and if products don't meet our standards, we should fine them or just ban their import.  God dammed Clinton and his GATT/WTO!

[Baron von Bone]

Our nation stands on the abyss and we are ready to jump. In many ways I want our nation to fail so we can rebuild it. I want the left to suffer and learn that their policies end up one way; with misery.

And when it becomes clear your arrogance and inability to see around your personal sentiments was actually most of the problem, would you learn from it, or would it just make you more angry and more set in your counterproductive, self-destructive ways?

[ronkny]

And when it becomes clear your arrogance and inability to see around your personal sentiments was actually most of the problem, would you learn from it, or would it just make you more angry and more set in your counterproductive, self-destructive ways?

Once again.  Nothing to do with the topic.  Do you even understand what they are discussing here.  Hints they are not discussing each others personality nor their intelligence.  Keep a trolling.  Don't you have library books to put away?

[ddickerson]

Isn't exploitation of the Chinese workers just as bad as exploitation of workers anywhere else?

Is it your understanding that we are the ones exploiting Chinese workers?

[actikid]

Is it your understanding that we are the ones exploiting Chinese workers?

Is it your understanding that the US imports a few products from China with the full understanding of the working conditions and wages?

[BGuttman]

Is it your understanding that we are the ones exploiting Chinese workers?

We are the ones who are buying all the goods from the Chinese factories.  If we didn't buy all the goods, they wouldn't be working all the overtime for little or no pay.

We used to have a major manufacturing industry in this country.  We made quality goods (even trombones).  Now we bring everything in from China.  And the guys who are shipping our jobs there are reaping the profits.  Wonder how they'll feel when they succeed and nobody can afford the stuff even at these low prices

[ronkny]

We are the ones who are buying all the goods from the Chinese factories.  If we didn't buy all the goods, they wouldn't be working all the overtime for little or no pay.

We used to have a major manufacturing industry in this country.  We made quality goods (even trombones).  Now we bring everything in from China.  And the guys who are shipping our jobs there are reaping the profits.  Wonder how they'll feel when they succeed and nobody can afford the stuff even at these low prices

Reaping?  Do you people have any idea what it costs to run a business?  Every business has a different overhead.  If many businesses manufactured here in the states, they'd go out of business because they can't afford to pay the employees and the taxes and etc.  Yes, some companies could pinch and squeeze but that's the minority.  Get a clue.
BTW,Didn't we say the same things about stuff being made in Japan back in the 60's and 70's?

[ddickerson]

Is it your understanding that the US imports a few products from China with the full understanding of the working conditions and wages?

Answering a question with a question doesn't move the discussion down the road. If you're interested, answer my question first, and if you have a question shoot away.

[actikid]

Reaping?  Do you people have any idea what it costs to run a business?  Every business has a different overhead.  If many businesses manufactured here in the states, they'd go out of business because they can't afford to pay the employees and the taxes and etc. 

That is complete nonsense.  If we had trade restrictions that did not allow ANY company to move jobs overseas to countries that have exploitative labor policies, then there wouldn't be any companies going out of business for this reason.

Companies go out of business when their competitors (Wal*Mart et al) are allowed to import from (basically) slave labor countries with no consequences.  Reaganomics (aka the Ayn Rand gimme-gimme-gimme mindset) has turned reason on its head.  Instead of having tariffs that equalize for the slave labor countries, we INCENTIVIZE the Romneys of the world to move AMERICAN jobs to the slave labor markets.

There are many incentives, but here are just a couple of the big ones:

- We allow the transportation costs to be fully deductible as a business expense

- We allow most of the profits to be parked offshore, so that in addition to gettng their products at slave wages, they are able to avoid taxes on most of their profits when they take the production out of the country.

The incentives are EXACTLY opposite of what they should be.  It is no wonder the American middle class has steadily been losing ground the past 30 years.  No amount of "work harder" or "pull yourselves up by the bootstraps" can overcome the structural damage that the right wing as done to the American economy and the American way of life.

[ddickerson]

We are the ones who are buying all the goods from the Chinese factories.  If we didn't buy all the goods, they wouldn't be working all the overtime for little or no pay.

I'm not sure that we are the only customer that China has, but I'm not over there looking at their books, so I don't know. I doubt it tho'.

We used to have a major manufacturing industry in this country.  We made quality goods (even trombones).  Now we bring everything in from China.  And the guys who are shipping our jobs there are reaping the profits.  Wonder how they'll feel when they succeed and nobody can afford the stuff even at these low prices

Maybe you should talk with folks like Steve Shires to find out his reasons for doing exactly what you are stating, and see if he agrees with you that his only motive is to 'reap' profits. Since I'm not a manufacturer, someone like Steve would be a better source for information.

[actikid]

Maybe you should talk with folks like Steve Shires to find out his reasons for doing exactly what you are stating, and see if he agrees with you that his only motive is to 'reap' profits. Since I'm not a manufacturer, someone like Steve would be a better source for information.

We don't have to ask him.  It is obvious.  It is the Wal*Mart problem.  When the big guys in an industry move product to the slave labor markets, that creates an impossible disparity in costs.  He is simply trying to get some product at a cost comparable to what Steinway is paying, not to mention the dumping of Chinese-branded product via eBay and other marketing channels.

When did tariff become a bad word?  (approximately 1980, I'd say.)

When countries do not provide a decent standard of living for their workers, then we should be charging a tariff to equalize that.  We have entered into treaties that amount to unilateral disarmament on tariffs.  That has become a one-way street.  That is because is the lobbyists for big corporations pushing for that, and they don't give a crap about the average American.  They should be concerned about the liquidation of the middle class, but that requires thinking beyond the next quarter's stock bonus.

[BGuttman]

I'd like to ask you, Dusty, just how much stuff are you working with that isn't  made in China or other countries in the Far East?  If the supply line across the Pacific were to be cut would you still be able to remain in business?

I ask this particularly because you work with Information Technology products.  I know of precious few still made here in the US.  My IBM Thinkpad is made in China by Lenovo.  Dell and H-P/Compaq are assembled by Foxconn, just like most Apple products.  If you go into Wal-Mart, who as recently as 5 years ago insisted on using only US-made products (whom they drove out of business by demanding cost reductions every year regardless of what the prices paid by their vendors did) you will find very few products that are not edible still made in the USA.

There is an inherent problem in that China (and to a lesser extent India, Pakistan, and the rest of Asia) have programs that protect their industries from American imports while taking advantage of our no-tariff policy to flood our markets with [often] subsidized goods.  This is what put that solar panel maker you Righties are so quick to blame Obama for wasting money on into bankruptcy.

[actikid]

There is an inherent problem in that China (and to a lesser extent India, Pakistan, and the rest of Asia) have programs that protect their industries from American imports while taking advantage of our no-tariff policy to flood our markets with [often] subsidized goods.  This is what put that solar panel maker you Righties are so quick to blame Obama for wasting money on into bankruptcy.

And they have kept the value of their currency fundamentally undervalued.  This is a back-door way of accomplishing unfair trade while being (arguably) technically complaint with trade treaties.  It is intentional and extreme.  They are going to ride this unfair protection as far as they can.  As long as they can repress their workers through a more-or-less totalitarian regime, they can afford to grossly undervalue their currency, making it impossible for "free trade" economies to maintain their own manufacturing base. 

Look, this game is obvious.  They are trying to own us, and the GOP in particular has been more than willing to sell out.  In far too many cases, Democrats have not raised a finger to resist.

Don't expect CEOs to fight for American jobs.  They don't care.  That isn't how they are compensated.  The only body that can wage this fight effectively is our government.  And if they fail to do so, we will become a second rate economy in another 15 years.

Funny how the right wingers are so eager to have us send our armies out to fight wars where were really don't have any national interest.  But they are real wusses when it comes to the fights that really to matter to the future of America.

[BGuttman]

Reaping?  Do you people have any idea what it costs to run a business?  Every business has a different overhead.  If many businesses manufactured here in the states, they'd go out of business because they can't afford to pay the employees and the taxes and etc.  Yes, some companies could pinch and squeeze but that's the minority.  Get a clue.
BTW,Didn't we say the same things about stuff being made in Japan back in the 60's and 70's?

As a matter of fact, I DO have an idea of what it costs to manufacture something here.  I was a process engineer in a manufacturing company and had to determine the costs of the operations I was responsible for.  For example, if I pay a worker $10 an hour it costs me $15 an hour including fringes (things like payroll taxes, supervision, benefits like health care, etc.).  I know what it costs to remove hazardous emissions, and it isn't enough to shut down a process; it cost only an extra 10% of the manufacturing cost of my solder mask to do so.  I know that materials were almost 60% of the finished goods cost (to which we added cost of sales and profit).

If the folks in China were forced to meet the same environmental standards of the US, it wouldn't be profitable to make things there and ship them here.  If US companies were allowed to use the same standards of emissions as Chinese factories we'd have heavy smog clouds over industrial areas like we had back in the 1940s.  Cancer rates would skyrocket.

[ronkny]

As a matter of fact, I DO have an idea of what it costs to manufacture something here.  I was a process engineer in a manufacturing company and had to determine the costs of the operations I was responsible for.  For example, if I pay a worker $10 an hour it costs me $15 an hour including fringes (things like payroll taxes, supervision, benefits like health care, etc.).  I know what it costs to remove hazardous emissions, and it isn't enough to shut down a process; it cost only an extra 10% of the manufacturing cost of my solder mask to do so.  I know that materials were almost 60% of the finished goods cost (to which we added cost of sales and profit).

If the folks in China were forced to meet the same environmental standards of the US, it wouldn't be profitable to make things there and ship them here.  If US companies were allowed to use the same standards of emissions as Chinese factories we'd have heavy smog clouds over industrial areas like we had back in the 1940s.  Cancer rates would skyrocket.

So your solution is to move manufacturing back to the US, pay good wages and benes, and sell the products at prices people can afford.  It's not possible.  Everyone would have to by Shires or Edwards, horns, dishwashers, tv's, shoes, etc.  Companies would go out of business because no one would be able to afford anything.

[BGuttman]

So instead you would have everybody out of work and can't afford to buy even the cheap crap coming from the Far East?  That will probably put the selling companies out of work even faster.  What happens when the brick and mortar stores close and you can't try your trombone in advance?

Also, how well will Shires do when all the kids' parents can't afford their instruments any more because both Daddy and Mommy are out of work or forced to take really low wage jobs that barely pay for the expenses of rent, food, and transportation?

[TillerTrom]

And when it becomes clear your arrogance and inability to see around your personal sentiments was actually most of the problem, would you learn from it, or would it just make you more angry and more set in your counterproductive, self-destructive ways?

Once again.  Nothing to do with the topic.  Do you even understand what they are discussing here.  Hints they are not discussing each others personality nor their intelligence.  Keep a trolling.  Don't you have library books to put away?

Ronkny,
Thank you for standing up for me, but I am used to being called names by political opponents. I am sure in the heat of debate I am guilty of the same sin. I try, but admit I fail sometimes, to always take the high road. In his defence, Baron asks a valid question though.

Like you, I am engaged in a war to preserve our country and freedoms by winning people to our side one at a time.  We can only get better at expressing our points when we debate people like Russ, Actikid or Baron. Although we may never win these fellow trombonists over, we may change the hearts and minds of others who do not post here.

[actikid]

So your solution is to move manufacturing back to the US, pay good wages and benes, and sell the products at prices people can afford.  It's not possible.  Everyone would have to by Shires or Edwards, horns, dishwashers, tv's, shoes, etc.  Companies would go out of business because no one would be able to afford anything.

This is EXACTLY what we did in the 1930-1980 era.  The issue is income distribution.  Since 1980, there has been a huge concentration of wealth in the hands of the 1%.  They don't spend that money here.  That money, by and large, does not go into the American economy.

70% of our economy is driven by CONSUMER SPENDING, and that is by the 99% that have less and less money.  Since Reaganomics took over, the consumer spending has been mostly CREDIT.  That was one big factor that led to the housing crisis, because after people ran up their credit cards as far as they could, the banksters pushed them into second mortgages based on a false economy in real estate.  Both parties were complicit in that because it was the only way to keep the consumer spending going.

The whole thing is a mirage.  When the Chinese are making everything except burgers, there is no real money for Americans to put into this economy.

Or to turn it around the other way, if people were making the dishwashers, tv's, shoes, etc (not to mention the Bundys, Jupiters, Jin Baos, and Eastman by Shires) AMERICANS would have money in their pockets to BUY that stuff without putting themselves hopelessly in hock.

Henry Ford (hardly a liberal) understood this.  He DRAMATICALLY RAISED THE WAGES in the auto industry because he understood it wasn't the Carnegies and the Rockefellers who would buy his cars.  It was the middle class.  

Your customers need to have money.  You may think you are relatively immune to this, and health care is the last thing we cling to.  But if we let this Reaganomics crap / Chinese outsourcing continue much longer, we won't be able to pay for our health care either.  And in the big priority scheme, tooth cleaning will get dropped before heart surgery and cancer treatment.

[ronkny]

This is EXACTLY what we did in the 1930-1980 era.  The issue is income distribution.  Since 1980, there has been a huge concentration of wealth in the hands of the 1%.  They don't spend that money here.  That money, by and large, does not go into the American economy.

70% of our economy is driven by CONSUMER SPENDING, and that is by the 99% that have less and less money.  Since Reaganomics took over, the consumer spending has been mostly CREDIT.  That was one big factor that led to the housing crisis, because after people ran up their credit cards as far as they could, the banksters pushed them into second mortgages based on a false economy in real estate.  Both parties were complicit in that because it was the only way to keep the consumer spending going.

The whole thing is a mirage.  When the Chinese are making everything except burgers, there is no real money for Americans to put into this economy.

Or to turn it around the other way, if people were making the dishwashers, tv's, shoes, etc (not to mention the Bundys, Jupiters, Jin Baos, and Eastman by Shires) AMERICANS would have money in their pockets to BUY that stuff without putting themselves hopelessly in hock.

Henry Ford (hardly a liberal) understood this.  He DRAMATICALLY RAISED THE WAGES in the auto industry because he understood it wasn't the Carnegies and the Rockefellers who would buy his cars.  It was the middle class.  

Your customers need to have money.  You may think you are relatively immune to this, and health care is the last thing we cling to.  But if we let this Reaganomics crap / Chinese outsourcing continue much longer, we won't be able to pay for our health care either.  And in the big priority scheme, tooth cleaning will get dropped before heart surgery and cancer treatment.

Redistribute income?  Socialism?
They don't spend the money here?  Where do they spend it?