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[Andrea]

Hello everyone!
I'd like to buy a .508 bore trombone.
I've tried a king 3b and a Yamaha 891z both yellow brass.
Unfortunately those horns are in two different store, so I can't understand the best trying one after the other.
Both play very well and also price is similar, really can't decide...
Have you tried them?
Any feedback?

Both are brand new

Thanks for all your replies

[TromboneMonkey]

If you can't decide between them by playing them... it's going to be difficult for anyone else to give you advice...

That said, if they're both new, the Yamaha has a few advantages... production quality has been a bit better recently IMO, and it has interchangeable leadpipes, which is cool.  You can use aftermarket leadpipes in it to additionally alter the sound without altering the instrument, the Kanstul H8 pipe is a favorite.   

Another suggestion would be to record yourself playing each horn and grab the one that sounds the most like "you" when you listen back to it.  Also check the tuning on both with a tuner, etc.  Good luck!

[Three G]

I have an H. White Silver Sonic 3b and a Z.  Both play great, but the Z is lighter (probably even lighter than a brass 3B) and has a darker tone.  The Z might also be slightly more responsive above high Bb.   

BUT, I still like playing both of them.  The Z is extremely well made and the slide was great slide right out of the box.  Can't say that about all horns.  Plus, the hard case is small, light and essentially functions like a gig bag (although obviously you can't stuff a mute in the bell).  I'll defer to others regarding the newer King's.

Re: sound...if you are having a hard time deciding, I think you will just have to try them both.  You should also take a tuner with you.  Note: if you really want a 3b, I would be patient and wait for a good used one.  There are a ton of them out there, most probably play great, and you could save a few $$$$.

The good thing is you probably could not go wrong with either choice.  Good luck. 
 

[Torobone]

I bought an 891Z after trying a number of horns in 2009. I agree with the comments about build quality for Yamaha, and leadpipe comments, although I switched to the NY pipe lead pipe after a couple of months and I doubt I'll switch again unless I go the H8 route.

Rather than a tuner, I would take a friend whose opinion you value, and have them listen to you.

Lastly, if you find a horn you really love, then note the serial number of that horn. Even with consistent build quality, I find slight differences between horns of the same make and model. Fortunately, I was able to try 2 891Z's when I bought mine. To me, mine was 0.1% better. 

[Andrea]

Thanks for all your replies!
Could you also told me which project better in big band, according with your experience?
Is it true that Yamaha have a neutral sound? Less personal?

And one last question,
which will let me switch beetween it and a large bore, easily?
(sorry for that bad sentence format!! :-( my English sucks)

[Torobone]

My experience is either horn will project. It depends on you and perhaps the mouthpiece. For a while, I found the 891Z a bit dark, but I fixed this in a lesson and with a smaller mouthpiece. I use two mouthpieces with my 891Z, a Bach 6 1/2 AL, and a Yamaha Al Kay model available in Canada (similar to an 11C but better).

I don't think the personality comes from the horn - again it's more the player.

[BGuttman]

A "neutral" sound is better than a "personal" sound you don't like.  I wouldn't reject the Yamaha based on reputation.  You played it and liked it.  That should suffice.

That said, I find my Yamaha was easy to bend to the way I play (I play a 682G).  I don't have a problem with that.

Neither one is going to be easy to swap with a big horn.  You can make the process easier by playing a large rim mouthpiece on the small bore (I use a Bach 4C to match to my Wick 4BL).  You can also practice both so that you can "feel" each one quickly.

[TromboneMonkey]

The newer Yammys have hand-hammered bells.  A lot of the older ones don't.  These new ones have more variability and IMO personality than the old ones.  But yeah, it's more about the player than the horn.  If you don't notice it having less personality for you, then it doesn't.  Simple as that.  But recording yourself can help assess this more accurately.  

Projection is way way different with the two different leadpipes on the Yamaha, but the projection of each horn is more than what anyone could need in the vast majority of situations, so I wouldn't worry about that so much.  

[dj kennedy]

[oh     its   
she   is so  beautiful 
  and  with  this  red  wine 
my feeing is   
 oh  what  i  want   
==============
  smelling like a flower
the sound 


quote author=Andrea link=topic=61203.msg867554#msg867554 date=1330988675]
Hello everyone!
I'd like to buy a .508 bore trombone.
I've tried a king 3b and a Yamaha 891z both yellow brass.
Unfortunately those horns are in two different store, so I can't understand the best trying one after the other.
Both play very well and also price is similar, really can't decide...
Have you tried them?
Any feedback?

Both are brand new

Thanks for all your replies

[/quote]

[bonesmarsh]

deejay on Mount Fuji
scent of chrysanthemum
New York leadpipe sings


---Basho 1681

[Three G]

Re: sound....as I mentioned, my 891Z has a dark tone, almost symphonic like.  That's what I like about it even though I use it for jazz. I can put an edge on it if I have to.  Beyond that, I'm not sure what else to say.  Tone is in the ear of the beholder.  I would try it out.  It's a nice horn.   

[Andrea]

Hello!!
Today i've tried again the yammy.
Monday I'll try king 2103 again will see...
It's so difficult to decide, but today I was very happy with 891z with a Bach 6 1/2al and NY lead pipe.
Thanks a lot to all of you mates!

[Andrea]

What does it mean?? 

[oh     its   
she   is so  beautiful 
  and  with  this  red  wine 
my feeing is   
 oh  what  i  want   
==============
  smelling like a flower
the sound 


quote author=Andrea link=topic=61203.msg867554#msg867554 date=1330988675]
Hello everyone!
I'd like to buy a .508 bore trombone.
I've tried a king 3b and a Yamaha 891z both yellow brass.
Unfortunately those horns are in two different store, so I can't understand the best trying one after the other.
Both play very well and also price is similar, really can't decide...
Have you tried them?
Any feedback?

Both are brand new

Thanks for all your replies

[RedHotMama]

What does it mean?? 

That's DJ!

In addition to the sound, I would also consider how comfortable the instrument feels in the hand and how you might feel after several hours of supporting its weight. In other words, is it well balanced? I can't speak for the Yamaha model you describe, but the one I tried had no counterweight and quickly started to feel very "nose-heavy". After just a few minutes, I found it tiring and knew I wouldn't be able to play it for long. In contrast, the King 3B instantly felt right, sitting on my shoulder as if it had grown there, and has remained right for 20+ years. Good luck!

[dj kennedy]

yes  think  about  --the wind  and rain
 the taste 
-------
close your  eyes  --and  which one do  you  love  ??????????????????????
--------
  familiar  -connect    with
feels  right
--------
 excited 
 ---------
  makes   dog  howl  at moon

That's DJ!

In addition to the sound, I would also consider how comfortable the instrument feels in the hand and how you might feel after several hours of supporting its weight. In other words, is it well balanced? I can't speak for the Yamaha model you describe, but the one I tried had no counterweight and quickly started to feel very "nose-heavy". After just a few minutes, I found it tiring and knew I wouldn't be able to play it for long. In contrast, the King 3B instantly felt right, sitting on my shoulder as if it had grown there, and has remained right for 20+ years. Good luck!

[bonesmarsh]

horn speaking to me
scent of trombotine
blind lover loving King

-deejay 2012

[TromboneMonkey]

That's DJ!

In addition to the sound, I would also consider how comfortable the instrument feels in the hand and how you might feel after several hours of supporting its weight. In other words, is it well balanced? I can't speak for the Yamaha model you describe, but the one I tried had no counterweight and quickly started to feel very "nose-heavy". After just a few minutes, I found it tiring and knew I wouldn't be able to play it for long. In contrast, the King 3B instantly felt right, sitting on my shoulder as if it had grown there, and has remained right for 20+ years. Good luck!

This cannot be overstated.  Really.  Not just ergonomics, but just connection with the horn in general.  If you're not connecting with the horn, it's not gonna work!  But that's more general advice, the OP wasn't really asking about this.

[BGuttman]

For Andrea, there is one thing you probably won't hear on this thread from any serious player:

"The Yamaha is junk, buy the King" or "The King is junk, buy the Yamaha".

We might suggest the Yamaha over something like a Jin Bao or even a Jupiter.  There are other top line horns this size as well.  The Bach 16M as one example.

As all have said, it becomes a matter of ergonomics, convenience, mojo, feng shui, and all kinds of other non-quantifiable factors that might help you decide.

[bonesmarsh]

Off topic slightly..

 A friend is looking for a good jazz bone. Last week I went to my local retailer and tried a Bach 16M vs a Yamaha, as he lives 6 hours away.

The Bach was assembled so badly that the slide lock came to rest to the rear of the slide assembly and prevented the slide from going into 1st position when it was unscrewed. You would have to rebuild the horn, as it kept working itself loose and rolling downward with gravity to the rear.

The same retailer had 3 Bach 36B for sale lower than cost.

All four Bach horns, and I'm unsure whether they were built during the strike, which I suspect-- were unplayble and unownable.

Therefore they weren't worth a nickle.

The Yamaha horn was fine, a pleasure to play. As a matter of fact, the player who ordered the Bach 16M play tested the 16M vs a Yamaha and bought the Yamaha, leaving the Bach 16M behind. THE BACH WAS JUNK. Beware.

[mwpfoot]

I've played both and they are both great. Both are great in big band. I'm joining the chorus singing that they are nearly equivalent objects, so the decision should be based on how they resonate with you.

 

Also price.

Personally, I chose the 891z as my first non-vintage horn when it came out a few years ago and I love it. My 3b is vintage and silver and has a few issues that a trip to the shop should clear up. Each horn has a home in the various groups I perform with.