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[Olivier]

Hi everybody,

I was watching some video of Strauss's Alpine Symphony, especially the "On the summit" movement where bass and contrabass trombone start by a pedal G. I was very surprise by an interpretation from Berliner Philarmoniker where the contrabass trombone play the pedal G on the 7th position. Now I understand that there is different different set up as for the bass trombone but I was wondering if someone have a chart position for the different type of contra.
Thank you.

[Edward_Solomon]

You will find a chart of contrabass trombone tunings/positions in books such as Die Posaune by Hans Kunitz and The Trombone by Robin Gregory, though they really can't be relied on much outside of technical information such as this for accuracy.

It is worth noting that Strauss' Eine Alpensinfonie is quite emphatically not scored for the contrabass trombone. The fourth trombone part, just like the third trombone part, is scored for a B flat/F bass trombone, not a contrabass trombone. Strauss only ever scored for the contrabass trombone once in Elektra and then abandoned it. German/Austrian performance practice nowadays may be to perform these fourth trombone parts in Strauss' works on the contrabass trombone, but they are most definitely incorrect in this respect as Strauss clearly specified contrabass trombone only in Elektra, which contains a fourth trombone part that is substantially lower than any other work. Strauss was no fool; he knew Wagner's Ring operas intimately and understood better than anyone how to write for brass instruments and what they were capable of. Make no mistake about it; you can't beat Strauss at his own game. Eine Alpensinfonie is most definitely not contrabass trombone territory.

[Olivier]

you're totally right, I checked the score and the 4th trombone is a bass part. What make most orchestra's go for the contra today on this part ? Is it making a most powerfull effect ?

[Edward_Solomon]

I think it's almost a doctrine now. Ridiculous though it may seem, there is a tendency to deploy the contrabass trombone in works for which it is not scored. It would be completely inappropriate to use, say, a contrabassoon to play a low bassoon part, but is seemingly acceptable to use the contrabass trombone to play a bass trombone part. Understandably, the inverse is often true where a contrabass trombone is unavailable, but where a composer such as Richard Strauss clearly indicates where and where not to use the contrabass trombone, it beggars belief that the contrabass trombone is used instead of the bass trombone, for which the composer definitely and obviously scored. A cursory glance, let alone a detailed analysis, of the score of Eine Alpensinfonie reveals that the third and fourth trombone parts are often scored in unison, which almost never occurs when a bass and a contrabass trombone are in a section, implying the use of two identical, rather than completely different, instruments.

[blast]

Simple reason for the growing use of the contrabass.... money.

Most orchestras pay extra for a player to play contrabass, so players make out a case for using it, to get extra money. Nothing musical.

Chris Stearn

[Jox]

 I used to think it's not a big deal until I got to play contras and hear Brandt Attema play contra (man he makes it sound light if he wants). In the Alpine Symphony there's that low G. A contra's low G is a lot different timbre than a bass trombone's pedal G. Kinda like playing pedal Bb on bass with and without valves. Its just different.


  The question is what if thats what the conductor asks for? I know in our regions here there's verrrrry rare appearances of a contra. And besides, we can slap that pedal G over here on bass anyways

[Edward_Solomon]

As far as I am aware, no conductor has ever specifically requested the contrabass trombone in any work. I've performed Eine Alpensinfonie at least four times and not once has anyone even so much as breathed a word about the contrabass trombone, much less requested it. I think Chris Stearn is right on the money (pardon the pun) with his theory.

[actikid]

I think it's almost a doctrine now. Ridiculous though it may seem, there is a tendency to deploy the contrabass trombone in works for which it is not scored. It would be completely inappropriate to use, say, a contrabassoon to play a low bassoon part, but is seemingly acceptable to use the contrabass trombone to play a bass trombone part.

Couldn't the same thing be said of the first trombone parts, many of which were intended for alto trombone?

Simple reason for the growing use of the contrabass.... money.

Most orchestras pay extra for a player to play contrabass, so players make out a case for using it, to get extra money. Nothing musical.

Would the money situation be different with alto?

Are you saying that contrabass generally implies an ADDITIONAL player, and that's where the extra money is?  If the normal principal player performed on alto, I guess that would not add any money to the equation, unless that was considered a double.

Or is it a case where contrabass sounds more "anti-charactieristic" to the composer's intentions than the sound of an alto part being played competently on a tenor trombone?

[baileyman]

How can we have G contras while the F side of a bass is only a bass? 

Enquiring minds want to know...

[blast]

Couldn't the same thing be said of the first trombone parts, many of which were intended for alto trombone?

Would the money situation be different with alto?

Are you saying that contrabass generally implies an ADDITIONAL player, and that's where the extra money is?  If the normal principal player performed on alto, I guess that would not add any money to the equation, unless that was considered a double.

Or is it a case where contrabass sounds more "anti-charactieristic" to the composer's intentions than the sound of an alto part being played competently on a tenor trombone?

Same with alto... the player can often get an enhanced fee for using it. With the contrabass example, we are also talking the regular bass player getting an enhanced fee. Money making exercise.

Chris Stearn

[actikid]

Same with alto... the player can often get an enhanced fee for using it. With the contrabass example, we are also talking the regular bass player getting an enhanced fee. Money making exercise.

OK.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me there are more people trying to use contrabasses where they were not intended than there are people using altos where they WERE intended.  I'm not sure what that tells us, except that the bass player should be buying the drinks.

Maybe this is an over-reach, but I've always felt that there were many bass trombone players really addicted to the very low register, which really is not the essence of bass trombonery in my mind.  Young players may try to squeal the high notes, but most musicians get over that in due course.  I don't see the same addictive behavior on the high end that I do on the low end.  Maybe just my imagination.

[miketrombone]

I actually find that I can play a much louder pedal G on my bass trombone vs. my contra anyway!  On my contra from pedal G-F# are with both valves, which cuts the ability to go to maximum on the volume quite a bit.  The second low G in Alpine is while the rest of the orchestra is playing loudly, so you really need the ability to cut through all that sound on the pedal G.  I can't do that on my contra, but I'm sure others can. 

I think a lot of guys bring out the contra for the coolness factor of it, since we almost never get the chance to play it.

[actikid]

I think a lot of guys bring out the contra for the coolness factor of it, since we almost never get the chance to play it.

I think so.  But is the alto less cool?

Perhaps it is as simple as "big iron".  The contrabass is a lot more impressive than an alto, visually.

[sanfranboner]

This has gotten a bit off topic, but here goes anyway.

I'm not sure about the big leagues (e.g. SFS, SFOpera), but in the freeway phil/freelance scenes in this area, one only gets a doubling fee if they are playing more than one instrument on a program.  For example, I have a concert coming up with my orchestra which involves two pieces calling for alto trombone.  I will not get any additional fee for this, just standard principal pay.  When I do ask for a doubling fee, the personnel manager requires that I justify the use of the alto musically/historically.

[Bob Kolada]

I was watching some video of Strauss's Alpine Symphony, especially the "On the summit" movement where bass and contrabass trombone start by a pedal G. I was very surprise by an interpretation from Berliner Philarmoniker where the contrabass trombone play the pedal G on the 7th position. Now I understand that there is different different set up as for the bass trombone but I was wondering if someone have a chart position for the different type of contra.
Thank you.

That would almost have to be an F/D/Bb to play low G with one valve (the Bb). F/C/Db horns with a full length slide might be able to fake it on one valve (like a low C on a tenor/bass) depending on just how long the slide is but that would have to be a slide handle note! Kanstuls only have a solid 6th position (owned one) but I hear Haags have a 7th.

You can stick a low G on a good contra to decent effect.  The Kanstul is not so much a cranker (I suspect unusual dimensions to be the culprit) but the Chinese Thein copy I played could really plow through down there. I could also play a low F with both valves on the slide somewhere around 5th-ish, I think; a nice option to have.

[LongmodelF]

I'll make you a deal. I will stop playimg contra in the "Alpine" if bass trombonists stop trying to do all of the "Ring" on Bb/F bass trombones. Discuss!!

[miketrombone]

You can stick a low G on a good contra to decent effect.  The Kanstul is not so much a cranker (I suspect unusual dimensions to be the culprit) but the Chinese Thein copy I played could really plow through down there.

I'm sure you can, but it's difficult on mine, which is a Kanstul.  I can get a good FF low G on mine, but a knock-down-the-violas FFF doesn't really happen.  But it could be that I just don't have enough time on the horn/mpc to have lined it up yet.  Oh well.  I did play a Thein at the Denmark ITW a couple years ago and the low range was better, imho.

[Jox]

I'll make you a deal. I will stop playimg contra in the "Alpine" if bass trombonists stop trying to do all of the "Ring" on Bb/F bass trombones. Discuss!!

 In America it seemed like in the past most people are playing the Ring on bass. As time went on more people invested in a contra and its making more appearances. I know the MET doesn't use a contra but you'll have to discuss that with them. Could be a personal thing?

 Then again couldn't the same be said about Cimbasso and use during Puccini/Verdi?

[actikid]

I can get a good FF low G on mine, but a knock-down-the-violas FFF doesn't really happen. 

This is why I recommend packing a taser, just in case you need a little help.

[Bob Kolada]

I'm sure you can, but it's difficult on mine, which is a Kanstul.  I can get a good FF low G on mine, but a knock-down-the-violas FFF doesn't really happen.  But it could be that I just don't have enough time on the horn/mpc to have lined it up yet.  Oh well.  I did play a Thein at the Denmark ITW a couple years ago and the low range was better, imho.

A KBP2C seemed to work better than the 2A that shipped with it. I'd like to have tried a 1C. Mine played "sharp enough" that huge mps would probably work fine. I liked it but for me it was too middle ground- not hugeaphone like a good Bb (a friend built one that is AWESOME!) and not the F-bass-from-hell like the Theins. I also didn't like the angled out slide or the long cork barrels (why??).