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Author Topic: now the Supremes start  (Read 17551 times)
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actikid
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« Reply #200 on: Apr 06, 2012, 05:25PM »

So you can't profit in healthcare?  Do you know what profit is and where it goes?

Young man, I have worked for and owned for-profit businesses since 1973.  I know what profits are, how to make them, how to account for them, and what you can do with them./  But you are obviously looking for one particular answer, so why don't you just tell me the simplistic black-and-white answer you have to that question.
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« Reply #201 on: Apr 06, 2012, 05:32PM »

Young man, I have worked for and owned for-profit businesses since 1973.  I know what profits are, how to make them, how to account for them, and what you can do with them./  But you are obviously looking for one particular answer, so why don't you just tell me the simplistic black-and-white answer you have to that question.
I don't think you do know.  I, for one, do not take home profits and put them in my pocket.  Profits go back into the business and as bonuses for my employees.  If I was a publicly traded company my profits would determine my stock value which would in term manifest as an increase in someones retirement savings. It would also help determine my credit rating.  Basically profit is GOOD!.  The more the better.
btw you might have 5 years on me but I still appreciate the "young man" comment.
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« Reply #202 on: Apr 06, 2012, 05:44PM »

I don't think you do know.  I, for one, do not take home profits and put them in my pocket.  Profits go back into the business and as bonuses for my employees.  If I was a publicly traded company my profits would determine my stock value which would in term manifest as an increase in someones retirement savings. It would also help determine my credit rating.  Basically profit is GOOD!.  The more the better.
btw you might have 5 years on me but I still appreciate the "young man" comment.
Profiteering by taking advantage of people who are trapped and have no choice is not good.  Profit in a market that has free choice and no artificial barriers to competition is good.

If you pay bonuses to your employees, that is a salary expense and therefore not profit.

If you reinvest some of your revenue into your business, those investments will be depreciable and therefore not profit.

I don't mean to get nitpicky.  I expect my dentist to know teeth a lot better than accounting, and I am sure you do as well.  But you did accuse me of not knowing what profits were and then you gave me a series of examples that demonstrated you don't know what profit is, at least from an accounting standpoint.  I'm not trying to play gotcha because I am sure you have a good accountant to take care of those things but really, you shouldn't step right into a sucker punch so easily.
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« Reply #203 on: Apr 06, 2012, 06:07PM »

Profiteering by taking advantage of people who are trapped and have no choice is not good.  Profit in a market that has free choice and no artificial barriers to competition is good.

If you pay bonuses to your employees, that is a salary expense and therefore not profit.

If you reinvest some of your revenue into your business, those investments will be depreciable and therefore not profit.

I don't mean to get nitpicky.  I expect my dentist to know teeth a lot better than accounting, and I am sure you do as well.  But you did accuse me of not knowing what profits were and then you gave me a series of examples that demonstrated you don't know what profit is, at least from an accounting standpoint.  I'm not trying to play gotcha because I am sure you have a good accountant to take care of those things but really, you shouldn't step right into a sucker punch so easily.
Look at your previous posts "excessive profits"  profiteering" etc.  You either don't know what profits are or hate profit or have some formula in your head that determines what a good profit is and what a bad profit is.
If I reinvest it's still profit.  If I made no profit I could not reinvest. I don't have to reinvest. It's optional.
If I didn't have profit I would have no bonuses. I don't have to bonus. It's optional.
Dividends are also optional  they are made based on profit.
Profit is what's left over to do with as you please.  You assume that profit is put into the owners pockets.  In a private company that can be done but not in a public company.
Please look it up.
Here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_(economics)
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« Reply #204 on: Apr 06, 2012, 06:18PM »

Look at your previous posts "excessive profits"  profiteering" etc.  You either don't know what profits are or hate profit or have some formula in your head that determines what a good profit is and what a bad profit is.
If I reinvest it's still profit.  If I made no profit I could not reinvest. I don't have to reinvest. It's optional.
If I didn't have profit I would have no bonuses. I don't have to bonus. It's optional.
Dividends are also optional  they are made based on profit.
Profit is what's left over to do with as you please.  You assume that profit is put into the owners pockets.  In a private company that can be done but not in a public company.
Please look it up.
Here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_(economics)

No.  Net profit is what is left after expenses.  Your reinvestments and employee bonuses are expenses, so they reduce your profit.  Again, I'm not trying to be nit-picky, but you simply don't know what you are talking about.
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« Reply #205 on: Apr 06, 2012, 06:27PM »

No.  Net profit is what is left after expenses.  Your reinvestments and employee bonuses are expenses, so they reduce your profit.  Again, I'm not trying to be nit-picky, but you simply don't know what you are talking about.
You're not trying to be nit-picky?  Really?  Net profit is profit with the word "net" in front of it. It is what is also called a net income in an S corp.  I do know what I am talking about.  I just don't move the goal posts as we discuss it.  Where in any of the previous posts do you state "net profit"? You didn't say "excessive net profit" nor did you say "net profiteers".
What about dividends? Now you have "retained earnings"  So what term do you have such a problem with now?
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« Reply #206 on: Apr 06, 2012, 06:44PM »

You're not trying to be nit-picky?  Really?  Net profit is profit with the word "net" in front of it. It is what is also called a net income in an S corp.  I do know what I am talking about.  I just don't move the goal posts as we discuss it.  Where in any of the previous posts do you state "net profit"? You didn't say "excessive net profit" nor did you say "net profiteers".
What about dividends? Now you have "retained earnings"  So what term do you have such a problem with now?
Net profit is the same thing as profit.  The only other kind of profit is "gross profit" which is revenue minus cost of goods sold, and that is clearly not what you were talking about.

Here is the definition of profit:  A financial benefit that is realized when the amount of revenue gained from a business activity exceeds the expenses, costs and taxes needed to sustain the activity.

When you buy equipment or expand your office, that is depreciable and the depreciation or amortization is an expense, which reduces your profit.  When you choose to give your employees a bonus in the form of extra pay, that is simple salary expense, which reduces your profit.  There are other more exotic ways to structure bonuses that might not impact the profit calculation, but clearly you were not talking about anything like that.

I'm not going to argue with you any more about this.  You have demonstrated you don't know any more about this subject than anything else you harp on here.

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« Reply #207 on: Apr 06, 2012, 06:46PM »

Net profit is the same thing as profit.  The only other kind of profit is "gross profit" which is revenue minus cost of goods sold, and that is clearly not what you were talking about.

Here is the definition of profit:  A financial benefit that is realized when the amount of revenue gained from a business activity exceeds the expenses, costs and taxes needed to sustain the activity.

When you buy equipment or expand your office, that is depreciable and the depreciation or amortization is an expense, which reduces your profit.  When you choose to give your employees a bonus in the form of extra pay, that is simple salary expense, which reduces your profit.  There are other more exotic ways to structure bonuses that might not impact the profit calculation, but clearly you were not talking about anything like that.

I'm not going to argue with you any more about this.  You have demonstrated you don't know any more about this subject than anything else you harp on here.


No you're not going to argue because you are wrong.
You're no different than the ows people who love when Apple makes a huge profit (so they can get new technology) but hate when banks or drug companies make money because they have no need for banks (there's no "instant gratification" from banks) and they want drugs for free because once again an iphone is just more fun.
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« Reply #208 on: Apr 06, 2012, 07:27PM »

I'm not going to argue with you any more about this.  You have demonstrated you don't know any more about this subject than anything else you harp on here.

Ronky,

This is precisely the reason I left the conversation. Actikid acts like, well, a kid. He reminds me of an adolescent really in his know-it-all-everyone-else-is-wrong attitude.  One day, he will wake up and realize that people that have different opinions of him aren't a spawn of Satan. They want the same things he does - a pleasant future, stability, good health, etc, they just believe there's another route to get there. His kind (those who act like adolescents, not Democrats) speaks of tolerance and universal respect, then demonize anyone not like them. I love to debate, but I like debate, not demonizing. Ronky, go have a conversation with a liberal Democrat that is willing to listen and learn about what you think and believe, and you likewise. Debate should be an enlightening conversation and there are plenty of people who are liberal and Democrat that love to peacefully debate. People like Actikid aren't worth arguing with. It not only wastes time but increases the need for blood pressure medication (I'll send the check to the government, and they'll get around to paying it in 2025).
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« Reply #209 on: Apr 06, 2012, 07:34PM »

Ronky,

This is precisely the reason I left the conversation. Actikid acts like, well, a kid. He reminds me of an adolescent really in his know-it-all-everyone-else-is-wrong attitude.  One day, he will wake up and realize that people that have different opinions of him aren't a spawn of Satan. They want the same things he does - a pleasant future, stability, good health, etc, they just believe there's another route to get there. His kind (those who act like adolescents, not Democrats) speaks of tolerance and universal respect, then demonize anyone not like them. I love to debate, but I like debate, not demonizing. Ronky, go have a conversation with a liberal Democrat that is willing to listen and learn about what you think and believe, and you likewise. Debate should be an enlightening conversation and there are plenty of people who are liberal and Democrat that love to peacefully debate. People like Actikid aren't worth arguing with. It not only wastes time but increases the need for blood pressure medication (I'll send the check to the government, and they'll get around to paying it in 2025).
You are entitled to your own opinions.  You aren't entitled to your own facts.  The definition of profit is a simple fact.  There are standard accounting practices that govern that.  A person can make it very happily through life, and actually do well in business, without ever understanding even those basic accounting concepts.   But when a person makes an issue by badgering me 4 times asking for the definition of profit and then spouts nonsense -- non-facts in his answer -- demonstrating he doesn't know any of the basics of accounting, I am calling him on it.

You people are so used to bullying people on every subject that you don't seem to even see the recognize the difference between opinion and fact.  Standard accounting practices are facts.
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« Reply #210 on: Apr 06, 2012, 10:18PM »

You are entitled to your own opinions.  You aren't entitled to your own facts.  The definition of profit is a simple fact.  There are standard accounting practices that govern that.  A person can make it very happily through life, and actually do well in business, without ever understanding even those basic accounting concepts.   But when a person makes an issue by badgering me 4 times asking for the definition of profit and then spouts nonsense -- non-facts in his answer -- demonstrating he doesn't know any of the basics of accounting, I am calling him on it.

You people are so used to bullying people on every subject that you don't seem to even see the recognize the difference between opinion and fact.  Standard accounting practices are facts.
I gave you a definition from Mirriam Webster and one from Wikipedia. 
You people?  Who's telling us we have to buy health insurance or else.  We have to use mercury containing fluorescent bulbs?  Drive electric cars?  Don't use plastic bags? Let illegals live here and vote? Don't shop at Walmart?  No salt on your food?  And on and on.  Oh and the latest.  Build a lift or ramp, for the disabled, for every public pool and motel and hotel pool in the country.  And the law is retroactive.  Who's the bully?
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« Reply #211 on: Apr 06, 2012, 10:35PM »

Ronky,

This is precisely the reason I left the conversation. Actikid acts like, well, a kid. He reminds me of an adolescent really in his know-it-all-everyone-else-is-wrong attitude.  One day, he will wake up and realize that people that have different opinions of him aren't a spawn of Satan. They want the same things he does - a pleasant future, stability, good health, etc, they just believe there's another route to get there. His kind (those who act like adolescents, not Democrats) speaks of tolerance and universal respect, then demonize anyone not like them. I love to debate, but I like debate, not demonizing. Ronky, go have a conversation with a liberal Democrat that is willing to listen and learn about what you think and believe, and you likewise. Debate should be an enlightening conversation and there are plenty of people who are liberal and Democrat that love to peacefully debate. People like Actikid aren't worth arguing with. It not only wastes time but increases the need for blood pressure medication (I'll send the check to the government, and they'll get around to paying it in 2025).
There's lots of reasonable dems out there that don't shout and exaggerate will every breath.  My best friend is a lib with whom I disagree with just about everything.  He is pleasant to discuss and argue with.  There's no convincing him of anything.  But he doesn't exaggerate and shout or insult when we debate.  I don't let it increase my BP though.  I just laugh.
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« Reply #212 on: Apr 07, 2012, 06:05AM »

I'm Apple.  I make something that everybody seems to want.  I have it locked up with patents so nobody else can make one.

It costs me $150 to make, but I'm selling it at $600. 

That's excessive.
Nothing that a kidney donation can't handle.

There is a certain irony that this product was made by slave labor by one of this gentleman's countrymen, but after the Apple markup, few of them can afford to own anything like this.
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« Reply #213 on: Apr 07, 2012, 06:16AM »

It costs me $150 to make, but I'm selling it at $600. 

That's excessive.

Sounds like a pretty good business model to me. I've always said, that if you can find something that costs you a penny to make, and you can sell it for a dime, then you too can be successful(discalimer: something that you can create a demand for that is :) ).

Why is making a profit evil? Should all businesses operate at a loss to be politically correct?

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« Reply #214 on: Apr 07, 2012, 06:28AM »

The labor conditions in China are similar to the labor conditions here 100 years ago.  Somebody was mentioning on the radio yesterday that while we had the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire and it became big news, fires like that occur in China and nobody gives them a second thought.  If they follow the same route as the US, watch for supply chain disrupting strikes as labor unions try to get improved working conditions in the next couple of decades.  It might even result in a revolution.  Despite the hype, China is no "Workman's Paradise" (any more than Communist Russia was).

I am a victim of this -- I used to work in the industry that made electronic components and it's all being done in China now.  I see this all the time in the Lab.  I have customers who bring in stuff that was made in Asia and they have concerns that it doesn't quite meet specifications.  And often they are right.  We have the American design and then the subcontractors do whatever they can to produce parts -- often cutting corners.

I don't blame the workers for this.  Chinese people are every bit as smart as American people.  They are also industrious.  Their management are the ones pulling the "fast ones".

Sounds like a pretty good business model to me. I've always said, that if you can find something that costs you a penny to make, and you can sell it for a dime, then you too can be successful(discalimer: something that you can create a demand for that is :) ).

Why is making a profit evil? Should all businesses operate at a loss to be politically correct?


Bob and Ray were a comedy team based in Boston about a generation ago.  They specialized in satire.  One of their skits was of a guy who repairs shoelaces.  He describes a very extensive process where the laces are carefully reconditioned including new tips, and ironing.  He reported that he only gets the same price for his shoelaces as you can buy them for in the market (at the time about 25 cents).  They asked how he can pay his labor, and he says they are indentured and live in caves outside of town.

That's an exaggerated example of excessive profits.  You get your profits at the expense of the people who are making your wares.
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« Reply #215 on: Apr 07, 2012, 06:40AM »

You get your profits at the expense of the people who are making your wares.

So, you are saying that profits are bad. In your mind, there is no way for someone or some company to make profits without being evil. Your words (paraphrased)

You take profits out of the equation, the only thing you have left is communism. My opinion.

So, one has to wonder why someone would favor communism over capitalism?
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« Reply #216 on: Apr 07, 2012, 06:51AM »

So, you are saying that profits are bad. In your mind, there is no way for someone or some company to make profits without being evil. Your words (paraphrased)

You take profits out of the equation, the only thing you have left is communism. My opinion.

So, one has to wonder why someone would favor communism over capitalism?

I think you are deliberately misundertanding me, Trollmeister.

I don't think there should be no profits.  There should be profits after the workers are paid a living wage.  And in most places $10 an hour is not a living wage.  If that means a 15% margin instead of a 35% margin, so be it.
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« Reply #217 on: Apr 07, 2012, 06:55AM »

so after 216 posts, this thread has "evolved/devolved" into economics and business theory from one discussing the SC and the ACA

interesting/uninteresting ??????
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« Reply #218 on: Apr 07, 2012, 07:05AM »

Most of the arguments placed by the Right about the ACA are economic.  They also seem to confuse Medicaid eligible people with those who might be "required" to buy health insurance.

They also ignore the fact that if "I've got mine" then the Mandate doesn't affect them.

Yes, it's interesting that we have devolved into a discussion of economics.  I think that's the main interest of our Conservative friends: conserving their money, regardless of the consequences.  Maybe they should convert all their money into gold; if they destroy the country their money won't be worth much.
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« Reply #219 on: Apr 07, 2012, 07:05AM »

I think you are deliberately misundertanding me, Trollmeister.

I don't think there should be no profits.  There should be profits after the workers are paid a living wage.  And in most places $10 an hour is not a living wage.  If that means a 15% margin instead of a 35% margin, so be it.


35% profit? Who are you railing against?

Here is the list you posted earler:
Note: some drug company profit ratios:

Eli Lilly: 19%
Novartis: 15.3%
Merck: 13.1%
Becton-Dickinson: 15.5%
Rite-Aid: -1.8%
Walgreen: 3.6%

For comparison:

Ford: 14.83%
Wal-Mart: 3.5%
Apple Computer: 25.8%
Intel: 23.97%
Microsoft: 32.57%
JP Morgan Chase: 21.16%
Bank of America: 1.81%
Exxon-Mobil: 9.47%
BP: 8.34%

Note that the Drug Manufacturers have a nice return, while the retailers don't.
Also notice that the IT industries have huge profit margins.
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