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[elijahsoneli]

Hi
I play on a Yamaha YSL-354 (a student model) trombone on a 6 1/2 AL mouth piece. For orchestra, we are playing Scheherazade, the 4th movement of one of the songs. Near the end, the trombones play the melody and our director wants us to bring it out more, but the other guy and I are playing just under the blasting sound. The notes are also note not to high, which kind of makes it harder (it's around around the C just above the staff, the lowest note in the melody being a G and the highest being a eb). I was wondering how to play this part louder to be heard over the orchestra, but also without blasting it and sounding ugly.
Thanks!

[Practiceathome]

Hard to explain, but one example my director gave me to emulate was Ralph Sauer.  He has this amazing ability to have a singing tone quality without playing loud.  In other words, loud does not mean blasting.  It means letting the bell do the work for you.  Experiment by seeing how SOFTLY you can play and yet still make the bell ring with a bright sound.  Counter intuitive as it sounds, it works.  I learned that technique through my vocal training.

[Burgerbob]

With a smaller horn like that, it's much harder to get to higher dynamics without the sound "breaking up" or getting away from you.

Usually in orchestras (USUALLY) the section is comprised of two large bore tenor trombones (with F attachments) and a full size bass.

I'm not sure I can help you play without blasting on a small horn- that's why I have one, basically, for rock and pop gigs, and to get that sizzle in a jazz band.  

For now, just let off the gas pedal and sound good. FFF doesn't always mean "play as loud as you possibly could".

[Ian McDougall Wannabe]

It's a matter of air control, embouchure strength, and most importantly PITCH CENTER. When you put an uncontrolled blast of air through the horn, you are blowing apart your chops and NOT buzzing in the center of the pitch - the bell won't resonate optimally unless you're right in pitch center. Make sure you're playing/buzzing in tune, slide in the right place, using a focused aperture and plenty of air support.

It's not about overpowering the horn with gallons of air, if's about  RESONANCE and PROJECTION. It doesn't matter if you can move 6 liters of air unless you know what to do with it. A soft, focused, in tune sound will actually project better than a spreading blast at FFFF. More efficient and comfortable too. Want to play loud? Practice softly and beautifully, and then expand from there. The great Uan Rasey said it best: "Roar softly!"

Burgerbob, I have to differ with you - 'sizzle' and 'blast' are not even close to the same thing. You can make any horn (large or small) 'sizzle' and still maintain control and lyricism. It's just a matter of balance, practice, and understanding. Michael Davis has played more rock and pop gigs than anyone... think that guy blasts? Hell no, he has incredible balance, control, and just the right mix of brightness and warmth in his sound.

J

[WaltTrombone]

Point your bells at the conductor. Sometimes as loud as you can play is as loud as you can play.

[artyart]

Playing as loud as you physically can is rarely a good solution to the problem (although I agree with Walt's comment - we both have worked jobs where the conductor wanted everything you have and then some... hehheh. ) what does work, is learning where (volume-wise) your sound start to break up, or spread and get that "edge" a small bore horn can get, and play right at that threshold, it wont get too edgy, and it will project, probably so much you will get the hand from the conductor. It will take practice, and listening to recordings of you playing in a group to understand it, if you can get the other folks in the section to play that same way the result "should" be a nice clear ringing sound , that is big, and even if it is "bright" it wont be edgy, and it will be heard regardless of what else is happening in the group. The other benefit is social, your fellow musicians won't hate you for giving them a headache (unless that is what you want to do ... >:-] )

[trombone addict]

Edge can be good sometimes.

[Schwalbz]

A very efficient way that I practice playing at loud dymamic levels is through Air attacks.  Simply make the initial sound on the instrument without your tongue and just let the air flow.  For me this makes your airstream the most important part in making your sound (The way it should be) instead of using your lips.  I find that whenever a nasty sound comes out during my playing, it is often because I am not focusing on my air stream.

[trombone addict]

Efficiency is key to not getting to the breaking point too fast.

Practice starting at a dynamic that you are good at, then gradually crecendo and make the sound match evenness and quality.

[sowilson]

It might be as simple as getting the bell out of the music stand 

[Practiceathome]

I really liked what I.M. wannabe said.  He articulated what I did not explain well earlier and that is when you blow too hard "you are blowing apart your chops and NOT buzzing in the center of the pitch."  In my earlier reply I suggested playing it softly but with an edge.  When you play softly you must have good support or you will sound like a bumble bee.  Don't believe me?  Try playing with a bright sound but softly.  You will develop your breath support muscles in a hurry
Try the following:

1. First time through play it softly BUT WITH AN EDGE.  This requires breath support.
2. Second time a little louder, but still softly, and still with an edge.
3. Repeat a little louder until you get to the point where the sound is no longer focused nor musical.  That is your thresh hold.
4. Once you have identified that fine line between a focused sound and blatting, try to play just below the thresh hold of blatting so that you have a centered focused sound but with an edge.  This will allow the bell to do the work for you.  When the bell is "working properly" it will do the work for you.  This is far more effective than forcing the air.  The more you practice playing "loud softly" the more effective it becomes.  Besides Ralph Sauer, listen to Carl Fontana.  He does not play loudly but you can hear how he lets the bell ring and do the work for him which makes him sound loud to the audience.  Bill Watrous frequently called Fontana the greatest player in the world (I have heard him say it in person many times) so that is a good model to listen to.

[BGuttman]

One other issue I see, especially with High School level ensembles, is that the members don't know how to play harmony.  All the "melody" instruments (violins, flutes, oboes, clarinets, trumpets) think that whatever they are playing is important.

The trombone lick the OP is talking about rolls over a full orchestra.  What the Conductor needs to do to get the trombones to pull through is to get the rest of them down to a mere fortissimo instead of "blastissimo".  This will allow the trombone players with their smaller instruments to pull through.

It's not only that the OP is playing too soft, it's also that the rest of the orchestra is playing TOO LOUD.

[Eastcheap]

Point your bells at the conductor.

Or stand up. 

Interestingly, pit orchestras, where trombones are regular players, tend to have them off to one side, with the bells clear.  It sounds a lot better than the usual symphonic "subsidiary instruments to the rear" approach.

All the "melody" instruments (violins, flutes, oboes, clarinets, trumpets) think that whatever they are playing is important.

Your point being? 

[Thomas Matta]

Volume is also linked to intonation.

If your section is truly in tune, it will sound louder at softer dynamics.

So, rather than blasting, make sure you are in tune first.

[trombone addict]

Volume is also linked to intonation.

If your section is truly in tune, it will sound louder at softer dynamics.

So, rather than blasting, make sure you are in tune first.

Yup, one of the many reasons orchestras who have a reputation for playing (and sounding awesome) at very loud volumes are almost dead on in tune.

[wetrb]

Yup, one of the many reasons orchestras who have a reputation for playing (and sounding awesome) at very loud volumes are almost dead on in tune.

Chicago Symphony in the 70's and 80's...when I asked Frank Crisafulli about how they managed to play so loud he responded with "it's not loud, it's in tune" (paraphrased)

[Matt K]

Point your bell at the audience, not the stand.

[Bonefide]

Lot of great replies already; not sure if I'm adding anything new here so I'll be concise.

Good intonation will carry your section sound; so much more than a section of players all trying to play the loudest they possibly can.

Resonate.  Learn to play a note unmistakably in tune (where your instrument wants it) with a focused and efficient airstream. What some previous posters said about making the bell ring at a soft dynamic is the quickest way to get a more controlled, louder sound without losing tone quality.

Don't sacrifice tone quality. When you sacrifice tone quality, you are also sacrificing projection. Just cause it hurts doesn't mean it's carrying to the back wall...

if you practice soft long tones with unwavering focus for even 5-10 minutes a day, you will notice improvements in as little as a week or as long as a month.

[JP]

I may have missed it, but the magic word is projection, not loud.

Several years ago I got to hear George Roberts play live with a HS jazz band. The band was trying their best, but basically sounded like white noise (acoustical term, not racial...look it up if you are unfamiliar with it).

At the rehearsal, I sat in the front row of the large auditorium. George sounded great (no mic) against this loud background of sound, but I worried about how it would sound in the concert.

At the concert in the same auditorium I sat in the back, same "white noise" from the band. George's sound was like you were hearing him in headphones  His tone was so centered, in tune, and projected by terrific air support that it covered up the HS band behind him. When I asked him about that (on numerous occasions), he just laughed and said something like, "I just think of singing the lyrics, like Sinatra"

I am still trying to learn how to do that like Mr. Bass Trombone could do.

Summation (I think), song is "louder" than loud playing.

[elijahsoneli]

Thanks for all the advice.
However, now that you guys mention this, it brought me to a couple of more questions:
1. How can I project the sound? I don't quite understand what you mean by this.
2. How can I make the bell do the work of making my sound louder without blasting? Is it something to do with the bell's vibration or something?
3. When you guys say to try playing like I'm singing it, do you guys mean to just think of singing the melody while playing?
I'm open to any advice and I would love it if you guys can give me any other tips!
Also, although I already said this, but THANKS!