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[Jim Kelleher]

I have recently been involved in a discussion about whether conductors always signal the downbeat with the baton at its lowest point. Certainly that method is conventional, but does it apply to all conductors at all times?

A reliable friend of mine who's been a professional musician for more than fifty years tells me that for years he played in an orchestra whose conductor signaled the downbeat at the highest point of his motion, rather than the lowest.

What has been your experience with this situation? Thanks.

[TromboneMonkey]

Different conductors put the rebound at different places on the beat.  Some conductors put their rebounds on the beat, although this is extreme.  If this were the case, it would appear as though the baton was "up" signaling the downbeat.

[David Schwartz]

The best conductors, for me, visually, have been short people who, to be seen, scrupulously kept their downbeat bounce high, like armpit high, and always in the same place.

[Thomas Matta]

I have recently been involved in a discussion about whether conductors always signal the downbeat with the baton at its lowest point. Certainly that method is conventional, but does it apply to all conductors at all times?

A reliable friend of mine who's been a professional musician for more than fifty years tells me that for years he played in an orchestra whose conductor signaled the downbeat at the highest point of his motion, rather than the lowest.

What has been your experience with this situation? Thanks.

Many orchestras play behind the stick, not on it.

[Burgerbob]

Many orchestras play behind the stick, not on it.

I've always wondered about this. It's so anything the conductor wants the ensemble to interpret will happen after he does it, right? Instead of delayed reactions?

[Jim Kelleher]

The best conductors, for me, visually, have been short people who, to be seen, scrupulously kept their downbeat bounce high, like armpit high, and always in the same place.

David, when you say "downbeat bounce," I think you mean the lowest point of the motion, even though it's not very low. Am I correct?

Have you ever run into a conductor whose "downbeat bounce" was at the highest point of his motion?

So far I've met one person who reports having this experience. He and I have been friends since 1950, and I trust his recall. The orchestra was the Brockton Symphony, and the conductor's name was Moishe Paranov. Do you remember him, David?

[Thomas Matta]

I've always wondered about this. It's so anything the conductor wants the ensemble to interpret will happen after he does it, right? Instead of delayed reactions?

I'm not sure.

Playing in a "go with the concertmaster" orchestra is difficult for me - but that's not my bread and butter. That's what I call the orchestras with those type of conductors.

Maybe some of our symphony players can enlighten us about where this practice starts: with the conductor, or the orchestra?

[David Schwartz]

... and the conductor's name was Moishe Paranov. Do you remember him, David?

Jim, I don't know of Moishe Paranov, but he must have been quite a character.  On line I read that he was a violinist and a pianist who quite high school because the principal wouldn't allow him to arrive at 10 AM after practicing from 6 AM to 10 AM, despite approval of his parents.  He never got a diploma.  But he went on to co-found the Hartt School with his teacher, Julius Hart, whose daughter he married.

Here's a reference to a story about Paranov

David

[Stewbones43]

Jim, I don't know of Moishe Paranov, but he must have been quite a character. 

"Moishe Paranov" so that's where the word Paranoia comes from.

Cheers

Stewbones

[Jim Kelleher]

Here (courtesy of David Schwartz) is Moshe Paranov's obituary from the New York Times:

Moshe Paranov, 98, Music School Leader
Published: October 10, 1994


Moshe Paranov, who co-founded the Hartt School of Music and spent five decades building it into a leading center for music study, died Friday at his home. He was 98.


"He had had a short illness," said his wife, Elizabeth Warner-Paranov.


An administrator, educator, conductor and pianist, Mr. Paranov co-founded Hartt in 1920. He also conducted the first concert at the Bushnell Memorial and was co-conductor of the Hartford Symphony Orchestra for six years.


"These contributions Moshe made to Hartford over the course of almost a century profoundly enhanced the city," said Stephen Joel Trachtenberg, a former president of the University of Hartford.


Born Morris Perlmutter in Hartford in 1895 to Russian immigrant parents, Mr. Paranov changed his name in his early 20's when he became a professional musician. He began playing the violin at age 5, but switched to the piano under the influence of his teacher, Julius Hartt.


He later married Mr. Hartt's daughter, Pauline. She died in 1981.

[sanfranboner]

Jim, I don't know of Moishe Paranov, but he must have been quite a character.

When I was at the Hartt School, our trombone quartet had the somewhat dubious honor of having coaching sessions with Mr. Paranov.  "Character" doesn't even being to describe!  He was a very nice man, and his wife was a sweetheart.

[svenlarsson]

I did play in Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra for years when the chef conductor did point the baton to the ceiling signalling the down beat.
The effect is a kind of softer attack from the strings since no one like to the first one to play, so the wait for the concert master to play first, I call it the penguin effect.
It is harder for the brass, we can’t cheat and hide behind each other, right? We have to be together so we played a mix between his up beat and our own feet tapping. (in the shoes of course).
That way of conducting used to be common in Europe, it is going out of fashion thank god.
I recently heard and saw theAcademy of S.t  Martin in the Fields, fantastic strings! All together with fantastic timing and intonation. No conductor.
That is the way to go!

[bobg321]

I did get to watch an orchestra where the ensemble played what I would call half a beat after the conducted beat. But I would still say that the conductor was giving his downbeats at the lowest part of his motion

[Jim Kelleher]

The person who originally told me about a conductor with an UP motion for downbeats was my friend Joe Lane.

Forgive the following digression. It will bring us back to the topic. Joe and I are both natives of Taunton, Massachusetts. I met him when I started playing in the high school band in 1951. I was a freshman, Joe was a sophomore. But Joe had been in the high school band since being drafted when he was in 6th grade. After Joe graduated, he went to Berklee School of Music, and studied with the renowned John Coffey. It must have been around this time that he played for five years in the Brockton Symphony, conducted by Moshe Paranov.

After that, Joe went out into the world with his trombone, and was pretty successful. He played (not necessarily in this order) with Woody Herman, Ralph Flanagan, Ringling Brothers' Circus Band, a strolling Dixieland band at Disney World, Sammy Kaye, and others. Joe played lead trombone for Sammy for 13 years. That meant he played the solo in the Kaye theme (includes high Eb) thousands of times.

Joe, at 76, is now touring the world on Princess Cruise Lines, playing bass in a trio. He and I exchange e-mails frequently. A few days ago, I asked him to recall exactly how Paranov conducted. Here is Joe's answer, received tonight:

"Moshe started with a little swoop downward, but only a bit downward before he emphasised the UPWARD tip as the "downbeat." In other words, the top of his first move was where we were supposed to hit beat one."

There we have it, from a reliable eyewitness. At least one conductor signaled the downbeat by bringing his baton UP.

[Jim Kelleher]

I shouldn't imply that Paranov was the only conductor who used this method. I didn't mean to disregard the post by svenlarsson about the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra, or the observations of others. Thank you all.

[Gabe Langfur]

Conductors often tell us to watch their sticks, but what they all really want is for us to read their minds.

If what's in their minds is clear, this is usually not that hard to do no matter what they do with their batons.

Now, how many conductors have clear intentions in their minds is an entirely different question...

[Stretch Longarm]

A competent conductor places a concise, coherent ictus where it can be seen. Vague ictus is just sloppy - why bother to conduct at all if your directing lacks precision?

Of course, many conductors just conduct mood and phrasing etc, and rely on the musicians' experience to "do it right", which in my opinion is a cop out...not that too many musicians pay much attention to conductors anyway...

[kbiggs]

I think that in the last 20-30 years, some schools of conducting have changed when the ictus lands and when the sound intends to start. Instead of conducting for the first row of strings in an orchestra or the flutes and clarinets in a concert band, some conductors are now conducting so that the ictus--the "return" on the bounce--is for the musicians in the back row of the ensemble. If you think about the physics of music and the acoustics of most halls, it tends to make more sense to have the back row "start" the sound and the front row "finish" it.

Another thing to watch is how the conductor holds the baton. Some grips tend to nullify the purpose of the baton, like "death" grips, or when the conductor grips the cork with their 2nd and 3rd fingers with the baton pointing inwards towards the center of the ensemble. Often, I watch the conductor's finger or even their wrist as they can sometimes provide a more accurate indication of the placement of the beat.

[JP]

After playing many years with big bands, and getting interested with orchestral music with a great conductor in college, I got a temp job in a small but big city orchestra. I noticed my attacks were always ahead of the strings. The experienced 2nd trombone player (I was bass) said, "play when his baton goes up past his middle shirt button, that's what the strings do...we have to follow them, it is the unwritten contract."

So, play the rhythms where the strings do (concertmaster maybe) they usually ignore the conductor anyway