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[Ellrod]

I have a Shires rotary on my .525. It needs, at the very least, a good cleaning and, perhaps, more. I don't play it all that often these days. When I do, it usually takes a bit of force and rotor oil to free it up. Then, it doesn't operate particularly smoothly or quietly (it has a percussive metal on metal sound, as if the "bumpers" have hardened and need to be replaced.) It might be that I'm used to the valves on my Yamaha bass, but it also seems a little fussy (not the smoothest articulations). It appears to be properly aligned.

I've heard some people talk about having their rotary valve "rebuilt". Does anyone know what that means? Where would you send it for that? Shires? How much would it cost?

I suppose I could get a new valve from Shires, although they seemed eager to sell me a new F attachment. Not out of the question, but could it be that difficult to replace the valve?

In terms of replacing the F attachment, I think an axial would be too slow for a .525 horn. Any thoughts about that?

I'm not necessarily married to a Shires valve. I'd be interested in a Rotax or a Kanstul CR, but I assume that would involve considerably more work and expense as it would likely mean building a new F attachment. And, of course, you don't necessarily know how it's going to turn out (maybe it'll turn out better!)

[Gabe Langfur]

Your valve is not old enough to need a rebuild. With a thorough cleaning and service it should be fine. If you store it soaked in oil it should give you fewer problems.

[daveyboy37]

Take it in for service. I doubt it needs a major adjustment, probably just more frequent oiling. The rubber bumpers also may have hardened.

Did you always keep the entire linkage probably oiled when using it? I have seen fairly young trombones with noisy linkages because they never kept the miniballs/joints/hinges/etc oiled properly. Without oiling, you get wear, which leads to loose fitting and noisier action.

[Ellrod]

Your valve is not old enough to need a rebuild. With a thorough cleaning and service it should be fine. If you store it soaked in oil it should give you fewer problems.

Hi Gabe. This isn't the TruBore valve you helped me with back in 05 when I bought the horn, but a high mileage 2nd hand rotary I bought to replace the TruBore (long story) a few years ago.

[Gabe Langfur]

Sorry, I didn't remember which kind of valve that was. Even so, a rebuild is almost always for a valve much older than Shires has been in business. It involves plating the rotor and then refitting it to the casing.

[Ellrod]

Sorry, I didn't remember which kind of valve that was. Even so, a rebuild is almost always for a valve much older than Shires has been in business. It involves plating the rotor and then refitting it to the casing.

It must not be much more expensive just to replace the valve?

[daveyboy37]

It must not be much more expensive just to replace the valve?

  Osmun charges $300 for a valve rebuild, which includes replating, refitting, lapping, etc, according to their website.  I'm pretty sure that's less than the cost of the new valve + installation, especially if the linkage also needs replacing.

[Ellrod]

  Osmun charges $300 for a valve rebuild, which includes replating, refitting, lapping, etc, according to their website.  I'm pretty sure that's less than the cost of the new valve + installation, especially if the linkage also needs replacing.

Good to know. Thanks.

R

[bonesmarsh]

Hagmanns are incredibly fussy. Way fussier than a rotary valve. I learned the tricks from a Hagmann valve.

I've had good luck using Denis Wick oil when storing mine for long periods. The embedded particls of teflon never evaporate. Denis Wick also works like a dream on my piston valve tuba when it sits for long periods and I concentrate on trombone.

I second the vote for storing valves well oiled. A good trick to get as much oil as possible into a dry rotary valve--
1.Put oil on top of the valve where the spindle runs upward through the retaining plate.
2. Pull out the well lubed tuning slide.
3. The vaccuum created will draw the oil into the valve from the top. ( You can see the air bubble out on the top as the oil gets sucked in.
4. Repeat steps 1 to 3 until no more oil is  sucked into the valve.

Then dump the oil through the tubes onto the valve. Its a waste of oil, but necessary to prevent that clanking, and it'll keep the valve casing lubed.

[dj kennedy]

elrods  valve is    prolly  gunky  green crusty  and    loaded w  grunge
needs  new  bumpers  too
  and the tubes are  maybe that way too 
stick it in a dishwasher    or car wash
  soaking  in vinegar  --compleate    disassembly  --  take a look  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[john sandhagen]

Like Gabe said, Shires hasn't been in business long enough to get a normal rotor worn out.

1 it could be binding due to some damage...take to a tech.

2 it could be dirty and need cleaning...take to a tech.

3 it might need so have the bearings swedged...take to a tech.

Any free movement is noise...so it could also be the levers, linkages etc.

[dj kennedy]

 
  DUDE --TAKE  IT  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ellrod]

Hmmmm - the non-sexy alternative - take it to a tech, get it cleaned.

"Swedged"?

[JohnL]

"Swedged"?

It's a technique to take the play out of the valve bearings. Probably the less you know about it, the better.

[octavposaune]

Everything has already been said.

Techie time for that rotor.  Modern tight tolerance rotors do not handle neglect like older super loose rotors.  Verdrigris build up within the rotor can crunch it to a halt very quickly.  I can almost guarantee you that you will need a chem clean and possible light lapping to get the action really good once again.

There is nothing at all scary about swedging bearings. Using a collet tool, you compress the outside of the accesible bearing material on the spindle and back bearings.  This process forces the metal in those bearing to shrink into the gaps left by wear.  It is done multiple times with lapping between, eventually you get a tight bearing that is concentric and doesn't leak.  There are a few problems with swedging: 
#1.  You can only shrink the ends were there is accesible bearing material to be worked by the collet tool, so there is still leftover worn areas that will no longer act as a bearing once the ends are shrunk.  This means the tight new bearings unless rigorously maintain will wear faster than the original bearing
#2.  Older trombones with skinny bearings (German rotors and Really old Conns) don't have enough material to be able to effectively swedge them, the metals will deform and damage can occur.
#3.  As previously mentioned the act of swedging can elongate the spindle which sometimes cause stop arm binding, this is however exceptionally rare.
#4.  The act of shrinking the bearing will sometimes end up with a beautifully fit spindle that will be gouged when the top of the rotor valve which is now large in OD than the refit bearing pulls through.  This happens a lot with Older Conn.  The stop arm attachment shapes on the top of the rotor cores are now wider and make removal of the rotor core difficult.  Those edges need to be address before refitting the rotor once again.

I do a lot of this work on french horns.  They don't seem to have the problems the Conn trombone valves have in particular.  But the horns people are willing to spend this money on are not necessarily cheap.

Ellrod, there are plenty of decent techs in Vancouver that could do this work.

Benn

[SandyMBarrows]

It could be that the F attachment has been knocked out of line by some anomaly....a light bump, or even a case that's too tight. That can cause the valve to drag on the case or bearing. Then, no amount of oil will solve the problem. I had problems with the TruBores on my bass, but Bonearzt figured out that the attachment alignment had been slightly off since the case fit was tight. He "fixed" it, I redid the interior of my case, and have had no problems since.