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Author Topic: Rotor part names explained with pictures  (Read 16900 times)
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octavposaune

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« on: Sep 01, 2012, 12:26PM »

As an educational posting I would like to share some pictures I took of a CR rotor valve.  I used paint to label the individual parts for those of you who do not know the names of the various components of your trombone's valve system.

The names and decriptions given are in American English and do not often translate well to other languages.

I am open to editing if any you have informed additions to these diagrams.

I purposefully left out the description of the back bearing on the rotor.  Technically both the shafts on rotor valves are spindles, however the back bearing is often simply called the back bearing to differentiate it from the spindle bearing where the stop arms mount.

So rotors have two spindle shafts and two spindle bearings, but in common reference a spindle bearing is the area in which the stop arm and linkages mount up.

I might post pics of a standard rotor later in time, as a CR is a specialized higher end rotor with bent port construction within the rotor itself.  These means instead of being made out of a single chunk of brass (billet rotor) the CR valve's ports are made from bent tubing that is brazed into a rotor core.  These valves are also internally vented which most production valves are not.

I may continue this educational posting series covering different areas of the trombone.  It depends on my available free time (not much)

Hope some of you find this helpful,

Benn
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ottisthetrombonist

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« Reply #1 on: Sep 01, 2012, 12:47PM »

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!
most informative. I have never known the different parts until now. Thank you!!!
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« Reply #2 on: Sep 01, 2012, 01:52PM »

Good job, Benn
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John Beers Jr.

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« Reply #3 on: Sep 01, 2012, 02:26PM »

Thanks for the resource, Benn!

If you'd be so kind, could you discuss (since we have the picture), what "Tightening the Bearing Plate" entails?

That might be an interesting project if you find yourself with way too much time on your hands... talking about each part of the thing and semi-common repairs and maintenance that need to be done.
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Matt K

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« Reply #4 on: Sep 01, 2012, 02:27PM »

Book. Marked.
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Baker

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« Reply #5 on: Sep 01, 2012, 02:52PM »

As an educational posting I would like to share some pictures I took of a CR rotor valve.  I used paint to label the individual parts for those of you who do not know the names of the various components of your trombone's valve system.
Benn
Hi Benn, can I post these pics on Italian Trombone Forum?
Thanks
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octavposaune

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« Reply #6 on: Sep 01, 2012, 06:08PM »

Yes Baker go ahead and repost, 

There is no problem posting on the italian forum, but the names are obviously only in English.

The CR valves are available from Kanstul Musical instruments in Kits for retrofit.

You may also use any pictures I will post in the future of a standard Bach rotary valve. 

If I didn't intend to share these pictures I would not have posted them on the internet.

Benn
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BGuttman
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 01, 2012, 08:56PM »

I'm going to "sticky" this so it stays at the top of the listing on this board.  Thanks, Benn.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 01, 2012, 09:45PM »

Does Greenhoes look the same basically?
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GetzenBassPlayer

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« Reply #9 on: Sep 01, 2012, 09:50PM »

Does Greenhoes look the same basically?

If I remember correctly, yes. I have seen my Greenhoes apart several times. Didn't pay that much attention, but remember they were round like that with vents.
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octavposaune

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« Reply #10 on: Sep 01, 2012, 09:52PM »

No CRs are not copies of Greenhoes,

If they were kanstul would have been sued.  Greenhoes have some rather interesting reliefs in the rotor that self vent without channels or ports.

For more information look at Greenhoes website and Kanstul also has a computer mock up showing some detail. I did not find necessary to post links for this thread (pics showing skeletonized rotor cores etc...)

Benn
« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2012, 07:07PM by octavposaune » Logged
Baker

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« Reply #11 on: Sep 02, 2012, 04:00AM »

Yes Baker go ahead and repost, 

There is no problem posting on the italian forum, but the names are obviously only in English.

The CR valves are available from Kanstul Musical instruments in Kits for retrofit.

You may also use any pictures I will post in the future of a standard Bach rotary valve. 

If I didn't intend to share these pictures I would not have posted them on the internet.

Benn
thanks, I'll try a translation  Hi
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BGuttman
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« Reply #12 on: Sep 02, 2012, 05:40AM »

The parts may look a little different, but what you see in the CR valve picture is also in a Bach rotor, an Olds rotor, a Conn rotor, etc.  Benn's point was to provide a common set of names so we can easily discuss issues we may be having with our particular horns.

Note that a Hagmann or a Thayer valve each have radically different parts and a disassembly picture of each might be useful as well.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 02, 2012, 06:30AM »

The parts may look a little different, but what you see in the CR valve picture is also in a Bach rotor, an Olds rotor, a Conn rotor, etc.  Benn's point was to provide a common set of names so we can easily discuss issues we may be having with our particular horns.

Note that a Hagmann or a Thayer valve each have radically different parts and a disassembly picture of each might be useful as well.

Bruce, some of the Olds rotors were different, having internal stops and springs? A very interesting few hours were spent trying to work out a problem with one of their early independant double valve basses (P-24?) where a "repairer" Yeah, RIGHT. :cry: had put the valves into the wrong casings!

Cheers

Stewbones
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BGuttman
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 02, 2012, 07:06AM »

Possibly, but when I pulled my Olds Ambassodor rotor apart I had the same pile of parts that Benn showed for his CR Valve (and this was some 40+ years ago).
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Bruce Guttman
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octavposaune

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« Reply #15 on: Sep 02, 2012, 08:18AM »

Hi all,

Bruce I would be happy to explain the differences between some of the various rotor designs, hence the genesis of this thread. I have on Olds rotor on display on my wall so I will take it apart and photograph it. The linkage system on Olds is unique as is the bumper system and internal spring.

I will probably explain the old style Bach and Holton ball and cup mechanical linkages, but that will have to wait until I have time (perhaps next weekend).

Benn
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 02, 2012, 10:41AM »

Nice job, Benn! Thanks!
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octavposaune

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« Reply #17 on: Sep 09, 2012, 05:51PM »

OK everybody,

I had some time afterwork on Friday to take some quick shots of rotor sets.  An Olds P22 and a loose Bach tenor valve

I will start with the P22 and go from there.  At the end there will be a comparison of the P series rotor and a factory Bach rotor.  Even to the untrained eye the difference should be quite substantial

Benn
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octavposaune

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« Reply #18 on: Sep 09, 2012, 05:53PM »

Now for the Bach Valve
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octavposaune

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« Reply #19 on: Sep 09, 2012, 06:00PM »

And lastly,

2 pics with comparisons of the rotors.  Both valve rotors are made in the same manner, however the P22 rotor was made extra wide to accomodate a better, rounder internal port.  There is still a cutout on the top, but this rotor does not have an ovaled port like that of a factory Bach.

Speaking of ovaled ports there is a modern rotor that has ovaled ports.  The Rotax rotor have a purposefully oblong shape, but are far superior in performance to a stock Bach rotor.  These oblong port help minimize the size of the rotor casing.  Rotaxs are about the same physical size as a Bach rotor but have much more internal port cross section.

One other interesting aspect of Bach rotors is that the back bearing plate has a lip built into it.  This lip is what seals against the rotor casing.  No other manufacturer I have seen has this back bearing plate lip.

That is it for this week,

Benn
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