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Author Topic: Wake Up, America!  (Read 273408 times)
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Russ White

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« on: Sep 20, 2012, 06:21AM »

It appears our dialogue had devolved to such an extent RHM felt it necessary to lock the Paying Attention thread. I was enjoying the feedback, so I'll try it again. Hopefully we can keep the discourse on a rspectable enough level it will not happen again.

VOTE!!!

Thank God the authors of our founding documents were men of such wisdom and foresight. They understood the human propensity for greed and lust for power would lead many who attained power to grasp ever harder for more. They instilled a set of checks and balances into our system to make this as difficult as possible.
 
The courts in multiple states are now providing those checks and balances in the case of the massive attempt by GOP legislatures to suppress the votes of minorities, the elderly, and the young in order to circumvent the democratic process of one man, one vote. In state after state, courts are throwing out the draconian suppression laws passed by GOP lawmakers since the overwhelming turnout in 2008 swept them from power.
 
Here in Fla., our GOP legislature and Governor (Fraud) saw their attempts limit the ability of citizens to register to vote, and to curtail the number of days in which a citizen might vote, overturned. A great victory for the democratic process, but not a solution to all the obstacles Republicans have put in the way of those who wish to exercise their franchise.
 
While the courts have maintained the number of hours the polls must be open, they have allowed the state to limit the number of days in which those hours must be allowed. The GOP leaders of the State are making sure the polls will be open at the most inconvenient and inopportune times for those who work, or depend on their churches for assistance in getting to the polls.
 
While the limitations placed on voter registration have been lifted (temporarily, anyway), voter registration drives got a very late start. Registration drives are underway, but total registration is lagging far behind 2008 achievements in insuring the franchise.
 
But, possibly the most insidious suppression activity undertaken by the Republican leaders here in Fla. involves the ballot itself. Taking a cue from the long lines which frustrated and discouraged many voters in Ohio in the last election, the GOP leadership has found a way to insure much the same result here in Fla. in this election.
 
The FLa. ballot this year will be ten pages long, filled with the full legalese verbage of many of the 11 constitutional amendments to be decided in this years election. In all previous elections, short synopses of amendments have been put on the ballot to make the process less cumbersome and time consuming.
 
Not so this year. The GOP is hoping voters will get into the booth and be confused, take way longer than they normally would, and slow the process to a standstill. They hope voters will get frustrated by long lines and leave without going through the bother of exercising their franchise.
 
So, fellow Floridians, you now have approximately 2 weeks to make sure you are properly registered to vote. Once you have done that, please familiarize yourself with the ballot (a copy should be available from the Supervisor of elections) and with the hours your polling location will be open.
 
And, most importantly, do whatever it takes to vote. Do not let your most basic right as an American citizen be taken from you.
 
Wake up, America!!
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BGuttman
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« Reply #1 on: Sep 20, 2012, 06:36AM »

I am most heartened by that Florida Supervisor of Elections who refused to abide by the Governor's dictates even before the court decision.  There are still people who are more concerned for the Country than their political party.
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ddickerson

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« Reply #2 on: Sep 20, 2012, 06:40AM »

It is really a shame that we would suppress the votes of non citizens in our presidential election. I don't know what this country is coming to. <disregard the dangling particle>
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ronkny

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« Reply #3 on: Sep 20, 2012, 06:44AM »

It is really a shame that we would suppress the votes of non citizens in our presidential election. I don't know what this country is coming to. <disregard the dangling particle>
participle?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 20, 2012, 06:44AM »

It is really a shame that we would suppress the votes of non citizens in our presidential election. I don't know what this country is coming to. <disregard the dangling particle>

So is it more right to suppress the votes of real citizens in the effort to suppress the [very few] votes of non-citizens?
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« Reply #5 on: Sep 20, 2012, 06:58AM »

So is it more right to suppress the votes of real citizens in the effort to suppress the [very few] votes of non-citizens?

Actually, when you 'allow' non citizens to vote, or other unqualified people, you are disenfranchising the votes of valid voters. So, that is what democrats are for. <dang, another dangling particle>

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ronkny

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« Reply #6 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:03AM »

So is it more right to suppress the votes of real citizens in the effort to suppress the [very few] votes of non-citizens?
Suppress?  To not allowing real citizens to vote?  Who's doing that?  Anyone can vote as long as they are a legal citizen. No one is preventing legal citizens from voting.  No one.
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:09AM »

So is it more right to suppress the votes of real citizens in the effort to suppress the [very few] votes of non-citizens?

I'm curious. Please elaborate how you can come up with a number for those that are voting illegally, or those that actually committed voter fraud. If someone commits voter fraud and gets away with it, how are you able to 'count' them in your 'not that many' list? Just curious, is all I'm saying......

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Russ White

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« Reply #8 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:10AM »

It is better that 1000 (legimate voters be disenfranchised, innocent men be excuted, etc.) than a single (non-eligible voter be allowed to vote, guilty man go free, etc.). Right wing gospel.
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« Reply #9 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:15AM »

It is better that 1000 (legimate voters be disenfranchised, innocent men be excuted, etc.) than a single (non-eligible voter be allowed to vote, guilty man go free, etc.). Right wing gospel.

You meant to say:
It is better that 1000 (legimate voters be suppressed, innocent men be excuted, etc.) than a single (non-eligible voter be allowed to vote, guilty man go free, etc.). Right wing gospel.

First off, how do you know it is not 10,000 voters that are having their votes disenfranchised by allowing voter fraud unimpeded? And in a swing state, where the winner only wins by a hundred votes.

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BGuttman
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« Reply #10 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:19AM »

Actually, when you 'allow' non citizens to vote, or other unqualified people, you are disenfranchising the votes of valid voters. So, that is what democrats are for. <dang, another dangling particle>


First, the tone of your message is insulting.

Second, I was listening to a report on NPR this morning where they were looking at non-citizens who vote.  Apparently one state had compiled a list of several thousand "non-citizen" voters.  On further evaluation, it seems that the number was more like a couple of hundred, most of whom had never voted.  And they found 3 or 4 who actually voted; one more than once.  Many of the non-citizens who admitted to voting said they were confused.  

This situation of a non-citizen voting more than once indicates that there is a problem at the Polling Place because they are supposed to have ways to make sure you don't vote more than once, but I doubt photo ID will make enough difference if this is the problem; somebody isn't keeping track of who voted and who didn't.

It's not uncommon for local organizers to try to get poor people to the polls to vote for their candidate.  This is a tradition that goes back at least to 1800.  Back in the Bad Old Days they would offer a pint of beer or grog to anybody who showed up to vote.  This practice was made illegal long ago, but the idea of trying to "harvest" voters goes back a LONG way.

So would you make it illegal for a party to try to get registered voters to the Polls?

Suppress?  To not allowing real citizens to vote?  Who's doing that?  Anyone can vote as long as they are a legal citizen. No one is preventing legal citizens from voting.  No one.

The act of making it more difficult for people to vote tends to affect poorer people because many would have to take time off from work (often unpaid).  If they have to take time off to get an additional ID document, this tends to make them less likely to get the ID.  You are acting like the the time involved is a simple inconvenience.  It's way more.  I had to get a driver's license at a New York City Motor Vehicle office and it took the better part of a day.  I had to renew a car registration at a Nassau County Motor Vehicle office and it took half a day.  Most of these folks are in areas like that.  Losing a day's pay is a serious hindrance.

I'm curious. Please elaborate how you can come up with a number for those that are voting illegally, or those that actually committed voter fraud. If someone commits voter fraud and gets away with it, how are you able to 'count' them in your 'not that many' list? Just curious, is all I'm saying......


I can't quote the numbers exactly; I wasn't taking notes this morning listening to NPR while driving to work.  My point is that we have crusades in Florida, Ohio, Georgia, and other states to eliminate illegal voters (i.e. non-citizens) and somebody followed up on one of the lists.  Order of magnitude: list contains several thousand.  Non-citizens is a few hundred.  Non-citizens who vote can be counted on fingers.

If the election is close enough that one vote is the difference, that is way smaller than the normal error in counting votes.  There will be recounts until the next election.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #11 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:24AM »

First, the tone of your message is insulting.


Tone? Wasn't it you who said kettle meet pot?

I just stated a fact Bruce. Everytime voter fraud is performed, the qualified voter's votes are disenfranchised. Tone has nothing to do with it. It is not my fault that the democrat party stands for policies that enable voter fraud.
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« Reply #12 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:25AM »

"massive attempt by GOP legislatures to suppress the votes of minorities, the elderly, and the young"  Lie
" limit the ability of citizens to register to vote"  Lie
This?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/06/15/2850710/florida-voter-roll-listed-gov.html

They cutting early voting hours.  How does that suppress voting specifically of minorities
“Florida law affords ample opportunities to vote: eight days of in-person early voting, no-excuse absentee voting and Election Day voting,”

Overturned?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/us/politics/court-approves-early-voting-schedule-in-florida.html

"The GOP is hoping voters will get into the booth and be confused, take way longer than they normally would, and slow the process to a standstill. They hope voters will get frustrated by long lines and leave without going through the bother of exercising their franchise"
So are you saying democrats are too stupid to figure out the ballot?  Don't know
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:34AM »

Everytime voter fraud is performed, the qualified voter's votes are disenfranchised.
But, who is actually voting illegally?  When they stop more legal voters from voting than illegal voters, then it becomes obvious that they are targeting certain groups, and trying to prevent them from voting.  It isn't a coincidence that Republican laws will be effective at preventing the poor people and the Black people from voting.

It used to be that Republicans were champions of voting rights, but that has changed.  Our Senator, Scott Brown, is downright hostile to the notion of registering Welfare Mothers so they can vote.

The right thing to do would be for Republicans to broaden their demographic appeal, rather than narrowing the electorate with underhanded tricks.
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:39AM »

It used to be that Republicans were champions of voting rights, but that has changed.

Not so. The repubs are actually trying to protect the voters, and the integrity of our elections.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:48AM »

Drillmeister, are you just being intentionally dense or do you not understand?

Early voting hours and late voting hours were established to allow people who work hourly on a "normal" workday (i.e. 8 AM to 5 PM) to be able to access the Polls.  People working shifts like 7 AM to 3:30 PM need the later hours so they can get off work and go to the Polls.

Reducing either the early hours or the late hours will reduce the ability of people who work hourly to be able to get to the Polls.

These people tend to be lower earners.  Some, like Joe the Plumber, will tend to vote Republican.  Others will tend to vote Democratic.  Either way, they should be allowed to get in to vote.
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:57AM »

Drillmeister, are you just being intentionally dense or do you not understand?

Early voting hours and late voting hours were established to allow people who work hourly on a "normal" workday (i.e. 8 AM to 5 PM) to be able to access the Polls.  People working shifts like 7 AM to 3:30 PM need the later hours so they can get off work and go to the Polls.

Reducing either the early hours or the late hours will reduce the ability of people who work hourly to be able to get to the Polls.

These people tend to be lower earners.  Some, like Joe the Plumber, will tend to vote Republican.  Others will tend to vote Democratic.  Either way, they should be allowed to get in to vote.
The voting hours are 12 hours a day.  How much more do they need?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 20, 2012, 07:59AM »

The voting hours are 12 hours a day.  How much more do they need?

No.  They are talking about reducing  those voting hours.

Maybe it can be like that Post Office that is only open for 1/2 hour two times a week? Evil

Incidentally, my Polls are open 14 hours: 6 AM to 8 PM.
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 20, 2012, 08:11AM »

No.  They are talking about reducing  those voting hours.

Maybe it can be like that Post Office that is only open for 1/2 hour two times a week? Evil

Incidentally, my Polls are open 14 hours: 6 AM to 8 PM.
And there is no early voting in NH. Florida has 96 hours to vote. The lawsuit wants to add 72 more hours. That would be 168 hours to vote in FL not including absentee voting. That's 154 hrs more than NH.
"In a motion filed on Wednesday before the United States District Court in Washington, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. said the Justice Department did not oppose Florida’s new plan for those five counties, under one condition: The counties must offer 96 hours of voting between the hours of 7 a.m. and 7 p.m. over eight days, the maximum under the law. The Justice Department sued the state over its new early voting schedule, which would have reduced the number of days for early voting.

With both sides agreeing to the terms, the court is expected to dismiss the suit."
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« Reply #19 on: Sep 20, 2012, 08:16AM »

In Massachusetts, we only get 13 hours to vote on Tuesday, Nov 6, 2012.  That's it.  However, we have absentee ballots that you can pickup at city hall if you're going to be away or too busy that day.  They should really have the polls open on the Saturday and Sunday before voting day too; then more people would vote.
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