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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Predictions for the 3rd Presidential Debate
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Titus62
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« Reply #140 on: Oct 20, 2012, 08:22PM »

Just to pick two points:

Name three Obama policies that reflect blind liberal Utopianism.
And what exactly is your beef with his foreign policy? Can you be specific? I think he's been better in foreign policy than in domestic policy.
1. $90 billion for "Green Jobs"  through the stimulus bill. 
2. ObamaCare
3. $5 trillion increase national debt through his policies.

Foreign policy?  Bowing and scraping to rag head royalty when he first took office.  Snubbing the Brits, and now, the Benghazi debacle, i.e. gross negligence in protecting our diplomats.
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« Reply #141 on: Oct 20, 2012, 08:53PM »

1. $90 billion for "Green Jobs"  through the stimulus bill. 

So you don't want him to try anything to stimulate the economy?

2. ObamaCare

Are you aware that this is a direct copy of Romneycare? 
Are you also aware that nothing that costs you has yet to be implemented?

3. $5 trillion increase national debt through his policies.

He was handed an economy in the skids, with a tax cut to make it that much harder to make ends meet.  In bad times the Government needs to run at a deficit in order to hopefully make it back when times get better.  Our last administration decided to run at a deficit during good times and make things much worse.

Foreign policy?  Bowing and scraping to rag head royalty when he first took office.  Snubbing the Brits, and now, the Benghazi debacle, i.e. gross negligence in protecting our diplomats.

I seem to remember a picture with George W. Bush walking hand in hand wiht a Saudi prince.  That doesn't count in the same way?

I didn't really see any of this "kowtowing" you speak of.  He's ignored the Pakistanis to fly drone missions to get Al Qaida.  He has laid low for the Arab Spring in hopes of not seeming overbearing (I'm sure if he had been more forceful I'd hear you screaming about how interventionist he was).  He hasn't done more than pay lip service to the Palestinians (which is way more than Israel would like).

I think I hear an external issue here. ;-)
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« Reply #142 on: Oct 20, 2012, 11:57PM »

1. $90 billion for "Green Jobs"  through the stimulus bill. 
The largest chunk of that is improving energy efficiency, which includes weatherizing homes. I got a tax credit to replace the light fixtures in my business. I'm not quite sure that qualifies as 'liberal utopianism', unless you define the term down pretty far. It reduces our energy dependence and creates jobs for people in that industry. The $21B spent on green energy is in the form of loans, and most of those companies are still solvent and paying back the loans.

Quote
2. ObamaCare
No matter what you think about ObamaCare (and I don't like it), it hardly qualifies as 'liberal utopianism'. Insurance mandates have been a long-time Republican proposal, starting with the Heritage Foundation and Nixon, and culminating in RomneyCare. Like it or not, it's not 'liberal utopianism'.

The most obvious choices were a national health care program, a public option, or a health insurance mandate. Obama signed the most conservative of the three.

Quote
3. $5 trillion increase national debt through his policies.
That's not true. The debt has increased by that much in four years, but it's not all because of Obama's policies. I'm not making an excuse here. The budget is set before the president takes office, and he has no control over it for the first fiscal year. He inherited Bush's war spending, Wall St. bailout, and tax cuts, all of which continued to add to the deficit before he could effect any policy. A lot of the deficit is in the form of specific obligations that a president can't reverse. There's no question that some of Obama's policies have led to higher spending (like escalation in Afghanistan and the stimulus package), but his policies haven't contributed $5 trillion to the debt. In any case, Bush Jr. turned a surplus into a massive debt, and regardless of the wisdom of that decision, I wouldn't call that 'liberal utopianism.'

Quote
Foreign policy?  Bowing and scraping to xxx xxxx royalty when he first took office.  Snubbing the Brits, and now, the Benghazi debacle, i.e. gross negligence in protecting our diplomats.

Sorry, but the first two points are not a substantive criticism of his foreign policy; they're a matter of decorum, not policy (and I should mention that you used an offensive term--I censored it in my quote in case you want to remove it from your post).

The 'Benghazi debacle' is a tragedy, but unfortunately that type of thing happens in every administration.

Reagan lost over 200 Marines in Beirut (the worst since Iwo Jima), then said he would stand up to terrorists, then pulled out (a military base ought to be easier to secure than a consulate, seeing that it's full of soldiers). He also had the Iran/Contra scandal, which involved secretly providing arms to a regime that was plainly hostile to America. Carter had the hostage crisis and the failed rescue. Bush pere was heavily criticized, especially from the right, for not marching into Baghdad (though he looks smarter every year) and for encouraging the Shi'ites to rise up, then not backing them.  Clinton had the national humiliation of Somalia where we pulled out our troops in defeat after our soldier's corpse was dragged through the streets, and the criticism that he stood by while hundreds of thousands of Rwandans were hacked up with machetes.

Bush the second allowed troops to enter Baghdad without a realistic plan other than having flowers thrown at them, and in doing so destroyed much of Iraq's infrastructure. The de-Ba'athification program resulted in most of the qualified people being shut out of gov't and contributed to the collapse of post-invasion Iraq. The Abu Ghraib incident undermined Iraqi support for America, harmed the war effort, and put our troops at risk.

I'm not minimizing the screwup at Benghazi, but putting it in historical perspective.

There's a lot of room to criticize Obama, and I might yet vote for Romney, just to get the country moving again. But the most severe criticism of Obama, such as your saying that he's a liberal Utopian, traffics in hyperbole and half-truth (or less than half-truth).
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2012, 11:05AM by Piano man » Logged

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« Reply #143 on: Oct 21, 2012, 04:06AM »

1. $90 billion for "Green Jobs"  through the stimulus bill. 
2. ObamaCare
3. $5 trillion increase national debt through his policies.

Foreign policy?  Bowing and scraping to rag head royalty when he first took office.  Snubbing the Brits, and now, the Benghazi debacle, i.e. gross negligence in protecting our diplomats.

Don't forget the Netanyahu (spelling?) debacle.
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« Reply #144 on: Oct 21, 2012, 06:14AM »

In PA, the voter photo ID law was shot down for this election, and rightly so.  It was a ploy by the GOP to influence the outcome.  Just how much of an impact does voter fraud play anyway?  Why would I vote multiple times?  What is in it for me?  Is there enough money in the campaign coffers to buy votes?  I could see that for some kind of local election, but a national election?  What am I missing here?
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« Reply #145 on: Oct 21, 2012, 11:00AM »

Don't forget the Netanyahu (spelling?) debacle.

What was the debacle? I thought that was well handled. Obama's suggestion--that we use the pre-war borders as a basis and swap territory after that--was sound. If we're going to have some responsibility for Israel's security, we need to hold their bellicosity in check.

A large contingent of people in this country seem to believe that if Netanyahu disagrees with us, we must be doing something wrong. The latest criticism from Netanyahu is that we won't agree to a 'red line' in Iran. Maybe I'm foolish, but I don't think we should let a foreign leader send our troops to war. Even most of Netanyahu's own people don't support his most extreme views, so why should we?

These things are blown out of proportion and distorted by Obama's opponents in hopes of costing him Jewish votes. That scarcely qualifies as a debacle.
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« Reply #146 on: Oct 21, 2012, 11:55AM »

Bowing and scraping to rag head royalty when he first took office.
In addition to the ethnic slur, there is also the blatant misrecollection.

http://sayitaintsoalready.com/2009/04/15/george-bush-kisses-a-saudi-prince/
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« Reply #147 on: Oct 21, 2012, 12:17PM »

...Bowing and scraping to *** **** royalty...

If the above (which I edited out, but can still be seen in his original post) IS an ethnic slur, then it is in violation of the TOU and should be dealt with.
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« Reply #148 on: Oct 21, 2012, 12:37PM »

If the above (which I edited out, but can still be seen in his original post) IS an ethnic slur, then it is in violation of the TOU and should be dealt with.

I sympathize, and you may be right, but it serves to shed light on the true colors of a significant chunk of the anti-Obama crowd.
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« Reply #149 on: Oct 21, 2012, 12:44PM »


I sympathize, and you may be right, but it serves to shed light on the true colors of a significant chunk of the anti-Obama crowd.

I would like to refrain from making the inappropriate comment of one be a negative reflection on others. I believe the comment reveals more about the OP than anyone else.
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« Reply #150 on: Oct 21, 2012, 01:31PM »

If the above (which I edited out, but can still be seen in his original post) IS an ethnic slur, then it is in violation of the TOU and should be dealt with.
Ethnic slur? What ethnic slur? I know ethnic slurs, and that ain't one.  How about "towel head?"  Would that be better?   Idea!

Ask any military personnel returning from the Middle East what they call them.  The appellation "rag head" for the indigenous people of that region is considered proper and polite by those people.
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« Reply #151 on: Oct 21, 2012, 01:43PM »

This isn't that region. I don't use terms like that. Seems that you do. Good luck.
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« Reply #152 on: Oct 21, 2012, 01:48PM »

Ethnic slur? What ethnic slur? I know ethnic slurs, and that ain't one.  How about "towel head?"  Would that be better?   Idea!
 
Ask any military personnel returning from the Middle East what they call them.  The appellation "rag head" for the indigenous people of that region is considered proper and polite by those people.

Don't be such a coward. The connotation in which it was written was obviously derogatory. Own up like an adult or just let it pass, but don't try and pretend you didn't mean it as it appears to any reasonable reader.
 
Foreign policy?  Bowing and scraping to rag head royalty when he first took office.  Snubbing the Brits, and now, the Benghazi debacle, i.e. gross negligence in protecting our diplomats.
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« Reply #153 on: Oct 21, 2012, 02:26PM »

Ethnic slur? What ethnic slur? I know ethnic slurs, and that ain't one.  How about "towel head?"  Would that be better?   Idea!

Ask any military personnel returning from the Middle East what they call them.  The appellation "rag head" for the indigenous people of that region is considered proper and polite by those people.

I know you go back far enough and I'll bet you remember the guys from Viet-Nam referring to the Vietnamese as "gooks".  That wasn't any less of an ethnic slur and is just as incorrect.

Feel free to call them "rag heads" in private discussion, but not on a public platform like this.

I can now clearly understand your objections to Obama.
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« Reply #154 on: Oct 21, 2012, 03:28PM »

I've never seen so many people commenting about things they obviously understand only from talking points anywhere in my life!  I really hope you guys will consider one important thing:  if someone doesn't do the job, they need to be replaced.  Would you keep someone in your section who played out of tune or  sloppy because they might have inherited a bone that wasnt a good horn?  You might cut them some slack, but how long do you let that go on before you just have to realize some one isn't up to the gig.  You cant continue to excuse issues because somebody else started it.  If you cant cut it better than this in 4 years with out crying about your predecessors' issues, why are you deluding your self about what you might do with another 4 years on our dime?  No 2 ways about it...our President has tried, but he hasn't even gotten as far as he should  have toward fixing it.   Will we again fall for it being someone else's fault? A different approach is usually called for when the one you persue  wont work. Unfortunately our President doesn't have one.

2 more thoughts...what surplus was that?  There wasn't any $$$ in the bank, it was projected based on all goes along they way you think it will.  Nothing inconvenient like 9/11 should come along...THERE WAS NEVER ACTUALLY A REAL  EXISTING SURPLUS!  And lastly, green energy is great but giving $$$ to the companies picked by their ability to contribute to your campaign and watching them squander it and wind up in bankrupcy, thus costing me and you our precious tax $$$ is beyond foolish.  It is contemptible regardless of what ever your politics might be.

A last shot...ethnic slurs are reprehensible, so are the childish political smears.  We can agree to disagree without impugnig the political party of your/our choice and concocting a positivly juvenile parinoid delusional view of the other guy.  If you can't do that you don't belong in the room with the adults.
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« Reply #155 on: Oct 21, 2012, 03:29PM »

Don't be such a coward. The connotation in which it was written was obviously derogatory. Own up like an adult or just let it pass, but don't try and pretend you didn't mean it as it appears to any reasonable reader.

Coward?  >:( Well genius, of course my reference to "rag heads" was derogatory. It was meant to be...and consensus of your fellow countrymen would freely agree with that tern, and cast them in no less a disreputable light. I'm not pretending or equivocating about anything, except insofar as observing the politically correct restraints of this website.

Be careful that your political correctness obsession doesn't stifle all open discussion in this particular forum.
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« Reply #156 on: Oct 21, 2012, 03:33PM »

Coward?  >:( Well genius, of course my reference to "rag heads" was derogatory. It was meant to be...and consensus of your fellow countrymen would freely agree with that tern, and cast them in no less a disreputable light. I'm not pretending or equivocating about anything, except insofar as observing the politically correct restraints of this website.

Be careful that your political correctness obsession doesn't stifle all open discussion in this particular forum.

It will have no effect on the good ones...
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« Reply #157 on: Oct 21, 2012, 03:53PM »

I know you go back far enough and I'll bet you remember the guys from Viet-Nam referring to the Vietnamese as "gooks".  That wasn't any less of an ethnic slur and is just as incorrect.
Feel free to call them "rag heads" in private discussion, but not on a public platform like this.
I can now clearly understand your objections to Obama.
 

Bruce, I not only remember "the guys from Viet Nam," I was one of them!  IIRC, we usually didn't refer to them as "gooks", it was more often the "VC" or "Charley."...and you do not clearly understand my objections to Obama at all!!  With your political correct sensors set on "full," you think it's because of his half-blackness.  WRONG!

It's not because he is 50% black, it's because he's 100% America despising socialist.  His clear goal (for those of you paying attention) is to turn America into an income-redistributed, Euro-weenie, socialist state...and the bankruptcy that goes with it!
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« Reply #158 on: Oct 21, 2012, 04:00PM »

I've never seen so many people commenting about things they obviously understand only from talking points anywhere in my life!  I really hope you guys will consider one important thing:  if someone doesn't do the job, they need to be replaced.  Would you keep someone in your section who played out of tune or  sloppy because they might have inherited a bone that wasnt a good horn?  You might cut them some slack, but how long do you let that go on before you just have to realize some one isn't up to the gig.  You cant continue to excuse issues because somebody else started it.  If you cant cut it better than this in 4 years with out crying about your predecessors' issues, why are you deluding your self about what you might do with another 4 years on our dime?  No 2 ways about it...our President has tried, but he hasn't even gotten as far as he should  have toward fixing it.   Will we again fall for it being someone else's fault? A different approach is usually called for when the one you persue  wont work. Unfortunately our President doesn't have one.

2 more thoughts...what surplus was that?  There wasn't any $$$ in the bank, it was projected based on all goes along they way you think it will.  Nothing inconvenient like 9/11 should come along...THERE WAS NEVER ACTUALLY A REAL  EXISTING SURPLUS!  And lastly, green energy is great but giving $$$ to the companies picked by their ability to contribute to your campaign and watching them squander it and wind up in bankrupcy, thus costing me and you our precious tax $$$ is beyond foolish.  It is contemptible regardless of what ever your politics might be.

A last shot...ethnic slurs are reprehensible, so are the childish political smears.  We can agree to disagree without impugnig the political party of your/our choice and concocting a positivly juvenile parinoid delusional view of the other guy.  If you can't do that you don't belong in the room with the adults.

I agree with the first sentence and the last paragraph, but they both sound like a condemnation of the rest of your own post, which reads like a list of talking points.

You'll notice that I was careful to mention that I wasn't making excuses for Obama, but simply disputing the $5 trillion number as too high. A president isn't responsible for legislation passed before he was elected, or for the existing fiscal year, which is already budgeted, or for non-discretionary items, like interest on existing debt. That hasn't changed. Obama's policies added to the federal debt, but not five trillion, in case accuracy matters.

To answer your question, a budget surplus occurs when you take more money in than you're spending. The reason that there was 'no money in the bank' is that it reduced the debt rather than piling up. I don't think it's typical that there are large piles of federal money sitting around in case we need it. Clinton ran budget surpluses--that's not even a matter of dispute. I don't give him much credit for it, because he benefitted from the tech bubble, which eventually burst.

Your point that we shouldn't keep someone who hasn't done the job is obvious (that's why it's a talking point). What's less obvious is whether Obama has done the job, and more importantly, which of our two choices will do a better job. I'm not a big Obama booster, but most of the criticism of Obama on this thread is cartoonish, crude, and simple-minded. If I ask what Obama's foreign policy failures have been, and people come up with bowing to a *** ****, or buying the British Prime Minister a crummy gift, it isn't a particularly substantive discussion.

If you want to talk about people who discuss topics they don't understand, you're welcome to try to substantively rebut anything I've written. Please leave your talking points at home.
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« Reply #159 on: Oct 21, 2012, 04:01PM »

It's not because he is 50% black, it's because he's 100% America despising socialist. 

You haven't made one point to validate that opinion.
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