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D Gibson
« on: Oct 23, 2012, 04:18AM »

I've never understood the value in insulting someone with whom we disagree. It reveals a sadistic intent within us while doing nothing to buttress our argument. It makes US look bad. It's a childish reflex that results in destructive behavior. It doesn't seem impossible to me for a group of adult music lovers to discuss a range of topics on which they may agree or disagree without resorting to insults.

DG
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 23, 2012, 12:01PM »


You must be new to the Internet.  ;-)

The threads I read on the Forum are usually quite civil.  On the rare occasions when bad behavior occurs it is squelched rather quickly and not allowed to commandeer the thread.

The cesspool called Purely Politics is another matter.   As I understand it this little ghetto was created to isolate bad behavior from the rest of the Forum, and for the most part this seems to have worked quite well.  This made a certain amount of sense except for the fact that all the rules of civility enforced elsewhere seem to have fallen by the wayside.  Even moderators join in the bad behavior there.  If you don't want it to be a free for all, then fix it.  Enforce the rules.

Have you ever played the arcade game called Whack-a-Mole?  Little mole figures pop out of eight or ten holes at random while you attempt to whack them with a rubber mallet before they disappear back into their holes.  When you're successful the moles emit a little shriek of pain.  Online forums often degenerate into Whack-a-Mole contests; one "side" protests that it is being treated unfairly in some way and the other "side" beats them up for their whining.  Both sides troll the other in hopes that they can arouse another mole to whack.  They call each other names, hurl attributes like closed-minded and stupid at one another, and generally behave like children.  Any attempt at genuine discussion is futile in this environment.

The funny thing is that the folks who engage in this exhibition of primal feces hurling appear to enjoy it.  Why else would they keep coming back for more of the same?  Sensible people who might wander in quickly make for the exit.

I admire your good intentions, David, but if you think a post shaming these bad actors will change a thing, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale that I'd like to talk to you about....
 

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D Gibson
« Reply #2 on: Oct 23, 2012, 12:58PM »

Conversation changes cultural attitudes.
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 23, 2012, 12:59PM »

Look at it this way: if you can walk down the toughest street in the USA at midnight with $100 bills hanging out of your pockets and come out of it with $1000 bills, then go to high tea at the Ritz and be totally accepted, then you have developed into one awesome fellow. The Trombone Forum: all things to all people. :-)
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D Gibson
« Reply #4 on: Oct 23, 2012, 01:15PM »

Well, then perhaps this is not the place for me.

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« Reply #5 on: Oct 23, 2012, 01:22PM »

Well, then perhaps this is not the place for me.


Sure it is - meaning TTF. But there may be some boards or threads that make you feel uncomfortable. There are some I don't care for, so I stay away from them. But boy I sure dig some of them. Doesn't mean I want to see the baby get thrown out with the bathwater. :) Best regards... :)
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 23, 2012, 03:04PM »

You must be new to the Internet.  ;-)

The cesspool called Purely Politics is another matter.   As I understand it this little ghetto was created to isolate bad behavior from the rest of the Forum, and for the most part this seems to have worked quite well.  This made a certain amount of sense except for the fact that all the rules of civility enforced elsewhere seem to have fallen by the wayside.  Even moderators join in the bad behavior there.  If you don't want it to be a free for all, then fix it.  Enforce the rules.

I am going to cut to the chase. I never thought that I would be saying this but I agree with Todd's description of the Purely Politics area as a cesspool and now believe it is way past time to abandon it, put all non trombone conversation back into Chit Chat, and enforce the TOU. I said right from the beginning that it was a bad idea to cut it off from the main Chit Chat area and the worst of my fears has been realised.

The strange thing is that I remember reading a post from the main 'problem child' down there who confessed to being the alter ego of another reasonably well-known member of this forum. As I remember, the post stated their main intent was was to stir up people on the other side of politics. He even said that he did not care if the moderators banned him from the forum. Those probably were not the exact words but that is the way it came across to me.

Later I went looking for this post and could not find it. Did the member have second thoughts and delete it? Was I dreaming? Was it a false confession?  Don't know Can I ask if any of the the moderators read this post and, if so, why have they not done something about it?

Even on the basis of the TOU, it seems to be in contravention of what is allowed: "Each user may sign up for ONE account only.  Duplicate accounts suspected of being from the same actual human being will be deleted with no warning." It looks like a simple solution to me although abandoning the whole Purely Politics area is better.

I would much prefer that the members of this forum were the ones making the decisions but that is not entirely practical, as we have found in the past. Notwithstanding, the moderator's room used to be a good place for discussing an issue like this and then taking action when at least a management concensus was reached. So, what are the moderators doing? Can they do anything?

My fear is that the Purely Political section is now stopping a lot of potential trombone-playing members from joining this forum and causing old members to stop visiting. My observation is that Purely Politics is one of the main destroyers of the wonderful community feeling that used to exist on TTF.

This criticism of Purely Politics section is not by any means an argument for stopping all non trombone/music discussion. That freedom is still essential! For this longtime member anyway.
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D Gibson
« Reply #7 on: Oct 23, 2012, 03:46PM »

How can we have a community that says, you can abuse each other in one section and then you'll be respectful in another?  People don't forget what was said.  It stands to reason that arguments in PP influence perceptions of one another universally. Once someone shows you who they are, then that's who they are....whether talking politics or bore size.

Seriously, I'm not interested in being a part of a community that can't grasp this dichotomy. Seeing the negative behavior on exhibition affects my freedom to share my thoughts. It seems there is resistance, even in this thread, to the idea of discipline, courtesy and civility. As a moderator, I receive report post briefs, regardless of the topic in which the posts appear. There is no hiding PP for me....even though I've had it hidden for years. I became a moderator here because I thought I might positively influence the forum decorum. There is no appetite, it appears. I have failed in my goal. The time to move on seems to be upon me.

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« Reply #8 on: Oct 23, 2012, 04:16PM »

How can we have a community that says, you can abuse each other in one section and then you'll be respectful in another?  People don't forget what was said.  It stands to reason that arguments in PP influence perceptions of one another universally. Once someone shows you who they are, then that's who they are....whether talking politics or bore size.

Seriously, I'm not interested in being a part of a community that can't grasp this dichotomy. Seeing the negative behavior on exhibition affects my freedom to share my thoughts. It seems there is resistance, even in this thread, to the idea of discipline, courtesy and civility. As a moderator, I receive report post briefs, regardless of the topic in which the posts appear. There is no hiding PP for me....even though I've had it hidden for years. I became a moderator here because I thought I might positively influence the forum decorum. There is no appetite, it appears. I have failed in my goal. The time to move on seems to be upon me.



Mr. Gibson, you are possessed of an inordinate amount of good sense and civility in a time when both seem at short supply.  I sincerely salute you and your efforts to encourage responsible behavior. 

I frequently find myself in situations where I wish their was more thought and courtesy.  That's why I mostly have stayed out of the PP section.  I think it should probably go away from the forum.  There are many venues for discussing and/or being an ass over the subject of politics. 

With my real world musical associates I have adapted an "I'll never ask and please don't tell me your politic bent" policy.

I've had best luck at sticking with musical topics. Those can be hot button enough.  I can think of another moderator that needs to give serious consideration to switching areas with someone.  The MOD in question has major issues with the subject matter and inject personal opinion in matters that could be left alone if the self-discipline to not be the problem could be applied. This matter is another version of what you attempt to address through calm redirection rather than nagging, chastisement and lukewarm attempts at shaming overs.

All in all, this beats the discourse most elsewhere out in the tubes...



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« Reply #9 on: Oct 23, 2012, 04:52PM »

How can we have a community that says, you can abuse each other in one section and then you'll be respectful in another?

Who said that? The solution is to apply the TOU. Why is this not done? Is there maybe disagreement amongst the moderators? Has the whole moderating committee function failed?

Seriously, I'm not interested in being a part of a community that can't grasp this dichotomy. Seeing the negative behavior on exhibition affects my freedom to share my thoughts. It seems there is resistance, even in this thread, to the idea of discipline, courtesy and civility. As a moderator, I receive report post briefs, regardless of the topic in which the posts appear. There is no hiding PP for me....even though I've had it hidden for years. I became a moderator here because I thought I might positively influence the forum decorum. There is no appetite, it appears. I have failed in my goal. The time to move on seems to be upon me.

Okay, I will have to be a bit careful here but, yes, your intentions were fairly clear when you became a moderator, judging by some of the early interaction you instigated. I fear that you do not always read people correctly and your particular interpretation of 'decorum' may be on a slightly higher plane than others. Personally, I do not think that objective was a good reason for becoming a moderator. I am much more interested in your musical/trombone input. But that is not to say that you are wrong about wanting to so something about the bad behaviour in PP and sometimes other sections. The solution is not to hide PP away but to put all non trombone/music conversation back in Chit Chat and enforce the TOU!
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D Gibson
« Reply #10 on: Oct 23, 2012, 05:05PM »

I was contributing input prior to being a moderator. Becoming a moderator didn't change my interest in that, but added to my intent.

If my aspirations regarding decorum seem too lofty, they only mirror my musical aspirations. I figure I'll accomplish more setting the bar higher.

I have struggled to be kind during tense discussions, in the past. It's been worth the effort.
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D Gibson
« Reply #11 on: Oct 23, 2012, 05:06PM »

The example I follow is Walter's.
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 23, 2012, 05:07PM »


David writes:

> I became a moderator here because I thought I might
> positively influence the forum decorum. There is no
> appetite, it appears. I have failed in my goal. The time
> to move on seems to be upon me.

I can certainly sympathize with your frustration at not having been able to implement some of the reforms you might have hoped to when you first joined the staff.  Believe me, I've been there myself.  Even before you joined the staff you stood out as someone who was capable of restoring decorum and rational thought to threads that had gone astray.  I commend you for this, and I'll be the first to say that your departure would be a significant loss to the community.

The sort of even-handedness that seems to come naturally to you has become quite rare here, especially since the creation of Purely Politics.  I recall a member of the religious right who was quite active some years back whose ability to stand his ground, roll with the punches, and *not* turn nasty always amazed me.  Even though I disagreed with just about everything he had to say, I sent him a PM commending his composure and we had an interesting exchange of ideas about bad behavior online.  Alas, folks like him seem to be far and few between these days.

There's one aspect of your statement above that puzzles me, however.  When you say there is "no appetite" for fixing these problems, are you referring to an appetite amongst the membership or the staff?  Personally I think there's a fairly large appetite amongst the membership (denizens of Purely Politics excepted), but based on the ongoing absence of effective moderation in PP I can only assume that this is the lack of appetite to which you refer.  Is this a correct assumption?  Is there even a modicum of consensus amongst the staff about how to handle this problem, or recognition that a problem actually exists?  I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts about moderation (or lack thereof) in PP.

On the lighter side, I'm quite smitten by the phrase "forum decorum".  I'm thinking about adding a verse to "Moses Supposes" from "Singin' in the Rain."  ;-)


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« Reply #13 on: Oct 23, 2012, 05:27PM »

How can we have a community that says, you can abuse each other in one section and then you'll be respectful in another?  People don't forget what was said.  It stands to reason that arguments in PP influence perceptions of one another universally. Once someone shows you who they are, then that's who they are....whether talking politics or bore size.

Seriously, I'm not interested in being a part of a community that can't grasp this dichotomy. Seeing the negative behavior on exhibition affects my freedom to share my thoughts.


Yeah, I block the PP threads for that reason.  In my experience, how someone treats a waiter at a restaurant is more indicative of his/her character than his/her politics.  It baffles me that people harbor such hostility toward others on the basis of political disagreement; the inability to understand that the vast majority of people are sincerely attempting moral righteousness and general helpfulness, and have legitimate and personally-justifiable reasons for their unique, personal views is one of the greatest problems on the forum, moreover in our entire culture.  Such an attitude certainly does not promote a lively, democratic, and fruitful discussion in any case. 
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 23, 2012, 05:58PM »

I can't delve into the philosophy side of this, but I am currently member of a totally unrelated forum. They allow no political talk, and have no political forum. It's a great community and I see no downside to it (at least with those people).

Just food for thought.
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« Reply #15 on: Oct 23, 2012, 06:20PM »

 Hi


Dave, you're an inflexible prig.


I wish more folks were like you.

Priggishness is a bastion of the Southern Gentleman and I cannot help but commend you for yours.


However, as it has been my distasteful duty to convey on far too many occasions, "Not everyone is as nice as you."

Expecting the world to behave itself is wishful thinking, at best, or downright dangerous denial of "things as they are", at worst.


One of the beauties of this forum is the very diversity of the membership and a positively admirable desire to provide an appropriate venue for self-expression for each member.


Those of us interested in well-mannered discourse have areas of the forum where we can be comfortable.

Those of us interested in no-hold-barred arguments have areas of the forum were we can also be comfortable.

Those of us interested in merely lurking can choose many different flavors of discourse and observe those in which we feel comfortable.


Those who espouse the desirability of diversity, but wail of the lack of conformity, are paradoxical, at best, and downright deceitful, at worst.

You must either embrace diversity with all of its unpleasantness, or admit you wish to discriminate based on your personal standards.


The ONLY way to instill discipline in others is to inspire them to instill it in themselves.

The only way to do so is by personal example.


In other words, you have been actively pursuing the ONLY method that actually works.

Why quit, merely because you don't see relatively immediate results?

It is a LONG process.


You didn't learn to play trombone in a year.

Why would you expect to change a lifetime of habit in such a short time?


Zinger: because of the nature of leading by example, you will never know how far your influence reaches or how effective your efforts are in accomplishing your goals.


To quote Commander James Taggart, as played by Tim Allen in Galaxy Quest:

"Never give up. Never surrender."


 Good!






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« Reply #16 on: Oct 23, 2012, 06:36PM »

The example I follow is Walter's.

Dave- I've been following your example. I haven't always been this level-headed, trust me.

In my early days as a mod, there were many times when my stomach would be in a knot over happenings around here. My own moderating style has changed a lot, I still read everything in my own sections, and whatever strikes my fancy elsewhere. I only post in threads that I feel I can make a contribution to, and I keep an eye out for bad behavior and bad information. You'd be surprised at the number of posts that I start, then delete without posting.

Ultimately, you have to find your own balance, but I enjoy this place much more with you involved in it.


To the rest- It's all well and good to just say to ignore what sections/posts/members you don't like, but, as moderators here, when something crosses the line, we mods don't have that luxury. Folks like Dave try to lead by example, but the vast majority of the posters in PP don't get it, and, I fear, never will. A sad bunch of obstinate trolls from both sides of the political spectrum, who are way too pig-headed to admit that other folks have opinions different from their own, and who are nonetheless determined to change the other's mind, no matter what.

I'll stop there, because I'll probably start thinking about quitting here myself if I continue.
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 23, 2012, 06:43PM »


Naj writes:

> You must either embrace diversity with all of its
> unpleasantness, or...

And here lies the essential crux of the PP debate.  Why can't we embrace the diversity and condemn the unpleasantness that is PP?  The diversity of ideas in PP is terrific; it's the personal deportment that sucks.  To suggest that the latter is a natural outgrowth of the former is ludicrous.  Look at it this way; if the PP gang behaves in public as they do in PP, I wouldn't want to be seen at the same table with them in a restaurant.  I think Dave and others are expressing the same sentiment with regard to PP relative to the Forum as a whole.

Walt writes:

> > The example I follow is Walter's.
>
> Dave- I've been following your example.

Yikes!  Infinite recursive loop detected!  Kernel panic!  Rebooting...


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« Reply #18 on: Oct 23, 2012, 07:04PM »

And here lies the essential crux of the PP debate.  Why can't we embrace the diversity and condemn the unpleasantness that is PP? 


Perhaps, because it is not unpleasant to those who participate?


Diversity, by its very definition, includes the concept that others see things differently from you.

"One man's trash is another man's treasure."


Just because YOU find it unpleasant does not mean that everyone finds it so.


As for Walt's observation that moderators do not have the luxury of ignoring that which they find unpleasant, my response is:


Leaders can not pick only the pleasant tasks to perform.

In fact, most of a true leader's tasks are rather unpleasant, as no one else is willing to do them.


Oh, there are perks, no doubt.

But, for every perk there is an "Oh, Deity, why me?"


All you can do is heed Staff Sergeant Thomas Dunlap's advice:

"Take two salt tablets and drive on."


 Good!
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 23, 2012, 07:25PM »

"Diversity" only exists if there is an open and productive dialogue.  That is to say, if there is a situation in which individuals are stifling discussion by their actions, even if those actions are part of said discussion, they are in effect harming efforts toward diversity. 

From a philosophical standpoint, it's similar to the liberties that we have in the United States - we can essentially do whatever we please, so long as we don't interfere with others' prerogative to do the same (which is why we have laws against homicide, hate crimes, etc).  The same philosophy applies here.  If an open forum that promotes diversity and fruitful discussion from all members is the ultimate goal, any members that choose to abuse their freedom to engage in said discussion in an attempt to stop dissenting opinions from being expressed cannot in any way be tolerated.  Members can opine however they please, so long as their actions don't attempt to prevent others' opinions from being expressed through personal attacks.


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« Reply #20 on: Oct 23, 2012, 07:35PM »

"Diversity" only exists if there is an open and productive dialogue.  That is to say, if there is a situation in which individuals are stifling discussion by their actions, even if those actions are part of said discussion, they are in effect harming efforts toward diversity. 

From a philosophical standpoint, it's similar to the liberties that we have in the United States - we can essentially do whatever we please, so long as we don't interfere with others' prerogative to do the same (which is why we have laws against homicide, hate crimes, etc).  The same philosophy applies here.  If an open forum that promotes diversity and fruitful discussion from all members is the ultimate goal, any members that choose to abuse their freedom to engage in said discussion in an attempt to stop dissenting opinions from being expressed cannot in any way be tolerated.  Members can opine however they please, so long as their actions don't attempt to prevent others' opinions from being expressed through personal attacks.


Nicely stated. 

Really, you don't have to agree with someone to be civil in your conversation with them.  Whatever happened to common courtesy and civility? 
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« Reply #21 on: Oct 23, 2012, 09:03PM »

If one truly embraces diversity, then there is no urge to convert another to your way of thinking. Then, there is no emotional rejection of alternative views.  In this embrace of diversity, there is no emotional resistance to inspire bad behavior. A true embrace of diversity wouldn't make excuses for bad behavior, because bad behavior wouldn't exist.
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« Reply #22 on: Oct 23, 2012, 09:38PM »


Naj writes:

> > Why can't we embrace the diversity and condemn
> > the unpleasantness that is PP?
>
> Perhaps, because it is not unpleasant to those who
> participate?

So those who are offended by the bad behavior in PP should just accept it because the folks who are behaving badly are enjoying themselves?

> Just because YOU find it unpleasant
> does not mean that everyone finds it so.

Nobody is suggesting that *everyone* finds it so.  Some folks are perfectly willing to ignore it, others don't want to be even vaguely associated with it.  Over time it has cost us several dedicated, longtime staff members, valued members of the community, and potential members from professional and academic ranks.

We're talking about community values here.  When it comes down to losing members like Dave or permitting the twatwafflery in PP to continue, I know how I'd cast my ballot if it were put to a vote.  I suspect a majority of the membership would vote the same way.



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« Reply #23 on: Oct 24, 2012, 02:22AM »

I am SO fed up of topics such as this, and infuriated by the undisciplined and selfish few members who provoke them. :(

Over many years, it has been strongly suggested, by a number of TTF members and mods (and prior to that, by members and mods of the OTJ), that the Practice Break be discontinued. I have always fought against this, often getting myself into a lot of trouble by doing so. IMO, if we don't have a section for non-musical discussions, these will make an unwelcome appearance in the "serious" sections. To wit, another forum, the Trombone-List. There, each post must have a trombone or musical content. As a result, there were (are?) frequent political or other rants in trombone or music topics and, right at the end, the posters say, "Oh, and BTW, I play a King 3B". How stupid.

More recently, it was strongly suggested that political (and possibly religious or drug-related) topics should be banned in the Practice Break. However, this would take a LOT of work AND censorship on SOMEONE'S part, so it was proposed (probably by me) that such topics should be "quarantined" in their own section, the PP Child Board. This, IMO, works moderately well in that such discussions/rants DO NOT appear elsewhere in the PB or the rest of TTF. Despite this, I quite understand why certain musicians don't want to be associated with such a lightly moderated and often shameful free-for-all. I don't know the solution, but I'm damned if, after all my efforts to keep the Practice Break as part of the forum and making such a very strong stand against censorship, I'm now going to be the bad guy with the delete button.

Don't go, Dave. You're a brilliant and much valued mod. If my assessment of the situation, over all these years, has been so wrong, it's ME who should go. And maybe the Practice Break too.
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D Gibson
« Reply #24 on: Oct 24, 2012, 03:45AM »

Christine,

I have always believed in your premise, regarding PP. But, the dissonance found in PP is not unique to this forum. What makes this forum unique is our shared desire to discuss trombone and music. Even when the discussions are quarantined to a separate area, it's possible for the ill will to bleed into other areas and influence communication there.

There seem to be conflicting agendas present. One can come to a forum to exchange ideas about a mutually interesting topic or one can come to find adversaries with whom they can argue about a mutually interesting topic.

Your point about the mammoth task of moderating a TTF without PP is understood. There would likely be many who would choose to push the boundaries, to be sure.

The horse is out of the barn.
 

DG
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 24, 2012, 04:15AM »

Until further notice, I will no longer be a contributor to any discussion on the child boards.  Although those boards were instituted by the management of this Forum and are being governed over by at least 3 moderators, being viewed this way is not what I signed up for.  I will take all non-trombone discussions I have elsewhere.  Hope to see you on folks the main boards.
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 24, 2012, 04:24AM »

Until further notice, I will no longer be a contributor to any discussion on the child boards.  Although those boards were instituted by the management of this Forum and are being governed over by at least 3 moderators, being viewed this way is not what I signed up for.  I will take all non-trombone discussions I have elsewhere.  Hope to see you on folks the main boards.

I'm not sure why you think YOU are being viewed in a certain way, or indeed what that way is. I can't speak for the other moderators - and to be honest, none of us reads all the topics in PP - but I've always regarded you as being a very sensible and reasonable contributer to that board, for which, my thanks.
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« Reply #27 on: Oct 24, 2012, 04:29AM »

I'm not sure why you think YOU are being viewed in a certain way, or indeed what that way is. I can't speak for the other moderators - and to be honest, none of us reads all the topics in PP - but I've always regarded you as being a very sensible and reasonable contributer to that board, for which, my thanks.

Thank you.  A person is judged by the company he keeps.  I don't want to be one of the "vast majority" there.  I think you do a great job.
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« Reply #28 on: Oct 24, 2012, 04:59AM »

A person is judged by the company he keeps.  I don't want to be one of the "vast majority" there. 

Well, that's one way of looking at it!

As I see it, there are a few idiots/incipient trolls posting in there, but also some shining lights.
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« Reply #29 on: Oct 24, 2012, 07:11AM »

I think we are doing a pretty good job on handling the insults on what I refer to as the "content" boards; those related to trombone playing and music in general (although we have had a few cases of rather nasty behavior from some rather well-respected players, some of whom have left in a huff).  We also try to keep the Chit-Chat sections pretty clean.  The No Reply rule in Classifieds tends to keep the snarks at bay.  We only relax the situation in Purely Politics, but if we have someone who is doing nothing but insults we will sometimes be compelled to act. 

Given this is a public board and we allow a broad spectrum of people to join in, there is really no way to prescreen for nasty folks.  Just as you can't live your life avoiding the s**theads out there.

If teachers want to have their students come in here I recommend they have the students avoid the PP section.  I really wish there was a way we could set it up so you had to opt in rather than opt out as we do now.
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« Reply #30 on: Oct 24, 2012, 07:44AM »

I think we are doing a pretty good job on handling the insults on what I refer to as the "content" boards; those related to trombone playing and music in general (although we have had a few cases of rather nasty behavior from some rather well-respected players, some of whom have left in a huff).  We also try to keep the Chit-Chat sections pretty clean.  The No Reply rule in Classifieds tends to keep the snarks at bay.  We only relax the situation in Purely Politics, but if we have someone who is doing nothing but insults we will sometimes be compelled to act. 

Given this is a public board and we allow a broad spectrum of people to join in, there is really no way to prescreen for nasty folks.  Just as you can't live your life avoiding the s**theads out there.

If teachers want to have their students come in here I recommend they have the students avoid the PP section.  I really wish there was a way we could set it up so you had to opt in rather than opt out as we do now.

Bruce,

I hope you don't take it personal that I am "opting out" of participation in the Child Boards.  While you & I sometimes have our differences, we have always agreed to respectfully disagree.  I happen to concur with you that those boards are for the most part, very well administered to - given the nature of them.  However, due to the recent information indicating to me that other members of this Forum view those boards with complete contempt and disgust, I made my decision.  Looking forward, I do not want to take the chance of being viewed negatively by anything else I may be associated with that could hold a common touch-point with this Forum.  I may monitor the Child Boards, that is may business solely.  But I will not participate in them actively at present.  It was fun, but it is time for me to move on, for the reasons I mentioned above.
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« Reply #31 on: Oct 24, 2012, 07:52AM »

I think we all need to hang & do a mass choir rehearsal and imbibe in well-aged amber single-malt spirits!!

Screw the politics & pissy attitudes!!!!!

Mr. Gibson,  please reconsider & stick around!!!!

Slante'


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« Reply #32 on: Oct 24, 2012, 08:54AM »

Well, then perhaps this is not the place for me.


I have made what I consider the most positive decision in my best interest. Frankly, I expect no less from you. :)
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« Reply #33 on: Oct 24, 2012, 09:57AM »

Do the TOU not apply in the Practice Break threads?

I would think that personal attacks and/or general unfriendliness/disrespect would see a user shown to the door? 
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« Reply #34 on: Oct 24, 2012, 10:08AM »

Do the TOU not apply in the Practice Break threads?

I would think that personal attacks and/or general unfriendliness/disrespect would see a user shown to the door? 

It happens, but we Mods tend to not want to do this.  We try to be as even-handed as possible, although there are some who feel that abuse is a tactic to be used in conversation.  We even see this in the content sections -- look at some of the Irv Karan and Mike Corrigan bashing that occurred in a couple of threads in Instruments and Accessories.  We tried to cool down the disputants without kicking an otherwise contributing member off the boards.

We find that the most abusive people come from one side in Purely Politics and we are worried we will look like we are "taking sides" if we get tough with the offenders so again we tend to tread lightly.

Problem is, when you are hiding behind an alias it's easy to be a troll.  But we also realize that sometimes you need to maintain a separation between your "day job" persona and your activities here, so we allow you to use an alias.  Again, most people are nice and obey the rules, but there are some who want to bend or break them.
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« Reply #35 on: Oct 24, 2012, 10:13AM »

I've stepped back from the PP because it is nothing but mental diarrhea at this point. What started as discussion has dissolved into a cesspool of divisive ranting. Dave is absolutely correct, there is a void of civility growing.

There are some who focus on the main intent of this forum, which is dissemination of knowledge and advancement of musicality, the musical professions, pedagogy, and the art of trombone playing. There are some who either never had, or have lost that focus; some posters profess to be some kind of business professional that is an amatuer musician, but from the time they spend on the forum, they obviously neither focus on work OR their playing. Perhaps some are merely provacatuers who've found a gullible audience.

In my view, the Forum is mainly about relationship building withing our community. I've met some great folks on this forum from all around the country & world, some who have become good acquaintances if not outright friends; at the very least I've established dialogue with many professionals who I would otherwise never met, and who have helped me in one way or another - referencing material, discussing equipment, lamenting problems, etc. I don't want to see that come to an end, nor do I want to see this valuable resource lost for the younger players.

Dave, to see you go would be a tremendous loss for everyone, and I would - well- challenge you - to revisit your approach to this mess. When we give in to trolls who stir stuff up, we become the losers; we should stand up for what is right, and for what is progressive towards the spirit of the Forum. I realize that nobody needs stress in their life, but individually, we are the ones in control, not the trolls. Please reconsider leaving, as your level-headed (even calming) outlook on music, interpretation, improvisation, internal focus, and life in general inspires and educates so many of us. It's not every forum that enjoys the presence of such a class of performers (and humans) as you, Sam, Doug, Joe, and a host of others.
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« Reply #36 on: Oct 24, 2012, 10:32AM »

I'm encouraged to read everyone's thoughts here...and I appreciate all of them.

I strive to be consistent in my contributions here, but am sometimes internally challenged to take the high road. I recently suggested that we create a "like" button, similar to FB's button. I think this would be a quick way for us to offer a tip of the hat to posts we appreciate but don't feel it necessary to reply. Most of us are looking for community here and it could be good mechanism to let folks know that others may appreciate or even share their perspective. 

Stretch...you illuminate what is possible when intentions are good. Thanks for that.

DG
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« Reply #37 on: Oct 24, 2012, 11:04AM »

I 'like' that idea! 


Wasn't that supposed to be the purpose of Karma?
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« Reply #38 on: Oct 24, 2012, 11:11AM »

We tried to cool down the disputants without kicking an otherwise contributing member off the boards.

We find that the most abusive people come from one side in Purely Politics and we are worried we will look like we are "taking sides" if we get tough with the offenders so again we tend to tread lightly.



That makes sense.  I guess it's just a matter of where the line gets crossed. 
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« Reply #39 on: Oct 24, 2012, 11:16AM »

I recently suggested that we create a "like" button, similar to FB's button. I think this would be a quick way for us to offer a tip of the hat to posts we appreciate but don't feel it necessary to reply. Most of us are looking for community here and it could be good mechanism to let folks know that others may appreciate or even share their perspective.

+1
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« Reply #40 on: Oct 24, 2012, 11:19AM »

I 'like' that idea! 

Wasn't that supposed to be the purpose of Karma?

Karma was supposed to be a way to allow rating of Forum members.  When we allowed forum members to rate each other it became a popularity contest with some of the younger members ganging up to boost each others' Karma.  Similarly, they'd gang up to smite someone they had an external grudge with.  So we limited Karma to applauds and smites from the Staff.

I worry that would be the fate of a Like button.  Another opportunity for a popularity contest.
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« Reply #41 on: Oct 24, 2012, 11:27AM »

I think it would be less of a popularity contest than the "thumbs up/thumbs down" model on YouTube. People could only voice support. It would still accomplish the sense of community as the original poster would be aware that his/her thoughts resonated rather than fell flat. They may even be encouraged to expand on their ideas.
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« Reply #42 on: Oct 24, 2012, 12:06PM »

I think it would be less of a popularity contest than the "thumbs up/thumbs down" model on YouTube. People could only voice support. It would still accomplish the sense of community as the original poster would be aware that his/her thoughts resonated rather than fell flat. They may even be encouraged to expand on their ideas.

+1 :)
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« Reply #43 on: Oct 24, 2012, 12:44PM »

Karma was supposed to be a way to allow rating of Forum members.  When we allowed forum members to rate each other it became a popularity contest with some of the younger members ganging up to boost each others' Karma.  Similarly, they'd gang up to smite someone they had an external grudge with.  So we limited Karma to applauds and smites from the Staff.

I worry that would be the fate of a Like button.  Another opportunity for a popularity contest.

also...the karma button is passing judgment on the person rather than the post.  a "like" button, as i envision it, would only apply to the individual post.  it would give one the opportunity to "like" a post whilst still despising the person.  (that's meant to be funny....even if it's true.)

DG
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« Reply #44 on: Oct 24, 2012, 01:04PM »

Okay.....
Things that in the past have been the subject of discussion in the moderators section seem to have migrated here for all to contribute to.... so be it.

When this forum was set up some rules... the TOU.... were put down so that this place could have every chance of being reasonable, reasoned and friendly.

So far these TOU have proved to be reasonable and fairly robust.

The Mods and Admins on this site do not have the site controls to properly run this place.... RLB can come in at any time and overrule and change anything and everything here.... FACT.... get on with it.

The main police problems have mostly been in Chit-Chat and when it was filtered off, Purely Politics. I don't wish to deal with that area as I have made clear in the past, I would prefer to do away with the non trombone/music sections, though after much debate the people that want to keep them won the day. We made a decision and I have been happy to run with that, as Bruce and Christine were willing to police those areas.... and much thanks to them.

What the Mods did collectively decide was to police those areas less heavily, as there are not enough responsible adults to keep track of all the posts.

If you, the members, want to change that, we will need volunteers to help keep the Terms of Use strictly held..... new mods for that area.

In the Mods section I voiced a dislike of the term 'LIKE' as a form of approval for posts... I hereby bow to the general wisdom and suggest that when RLB appears, you (anybody) asks him to set it up.

Well, I am beginning to think it might be time for me to give up the fight.... especially as I don't even know what the fight is....

Chris Stearn

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« Reply #45 on: Oct 24, 2012, 03:40PM »

I'm a little surprised that this is coming up now, because PP forum has seemed somewhat genteel of late. The only major pissing contest has been over someone calling an Arab man a '*******', and the response was a pretty good example of our community setting its own standards, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

I'm sometimes one of the instigators on the PP forum, and I'll apologize for that, but I'd much rather drop out than see David Gibson or Chris Stearn leave, because I've learned a lot about music from them. I think the mods do a good job in a tough situation. If you look at the criticism the debate moderators have received during the presidential election, you'll know it ain't easy.
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« Reply #46 on: Oct 24, 2012, 04:07PM »

also...the karma button is passing judgment on the person rather than the post.  a "like" button, as i envision it, would only apply to the individual post.  it would give one the opportunity to "like" a post whilst still despising the person.  (that's meant to be funny....even if it's true.)

DG

If there were a 'like' button, I would have used it here.
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« Reply #47 on: Oct 25, 2012, 05:59AM »

I 'like' that idea! 


Wasn't that supposed to be the purpose of Karma?

"Karma" is a little different, since it can only be bestowed by staff. We're hoping that we may be able to allow everyone to "Like" a post, but that, I fear, will have to wait until we find out what's going on with Forum upgrades from RLB.

In the meantime, might I suggest that folks keep their real-world karma on the plus side by being polite and respectful towards one another. Otherwise, one's dogma may get run over by your negative karma.
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« Reply #48 on: Oct 25, 2012, 06:07AM »

See what I mean? Walter giving us the example and the guidebook.
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« Reply #49 on: Oct 25, 2012, 09:32AM »

I appreciate DG's original response and the following discussion.  Unfortunately this points to a greater cultural problem that has been long brewing in the US. Sadly, I am afraid it will get worse before it gets better.  I believe the current political environment has only added to the mess.  :/
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« Reply #50 on: Oct 25, 2012, 09:43AM »

I think that the political climate is more of a result of, than a contributor to.
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« Reply #51 on: Oct 25, 2012, 10:29AM »

I think this is what Chris Stearn wants to hear us all singing and rightly so:

Ohhhhhh, YOU take the high road and
I'LL take the low road and
I'LL get banned afore youuuuuu. :) :) :)
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« Reply #52 on: Oct 25, 2012, 10:50AM »

I think this is what Chris Stearn wants to hear us all singing and rightly so:

Ohhhhhh, YOU take the high road and
I'LL take the low road and
I'LL get banned afore youuuuuu. :) :) :)

 :-P
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« Reply #53 on: Oct 25, 2012, 11:59AM »

  pot holes in road 
burglars   crooks thieves  pirates  banditos
ruffians scoundrels 
 cheaters
SINNERS   ---REPENT  !!!!!!!!!!!!
CONFORM
BOW DOWN
BEG FOR FOURGIVENESS
=========
biker bar
redneck  bar
country club
athletic club
lesbian bar
transgender bar
gay bar
marines
navy 
surplus  store
grocery store
meat
vegatables
gluten
-------
POLITICAL  THREADS --BIG DEAL
 i dont think  most  forumites participate
 
-----
in fact most members  dont post at all 
-------
mud puddles
pet excrement
-----
 actually  i  enjoy  purely politics 
 because of  the  differing viewpoints 
especially when backed up  by    articles
  --------
 sometimes  it gets like  drunken brawling
 or grade school  playground  stuff
 almost  like real  politics
---------
 the  pretentiousness  and snobbery  of the wanna be  upwardly  or downwardly   mobile
 anthropologically  perceptions    from urban  folk  or  rustic folk
 those   slum  dweller  trailer  trash homeless with laptop
  cyber bully    wimps  competing  in a bulldozed  playing field
 square beyond belief 
manners  do  not  protect  from wolves sharks poisonous  snakes  spiders of  sharks and killer whales politicians preachers  rapists
---------
have  they  gone too far  ???????????
-------------
 send in the drones
----------
we need  more bollywood   --less hollywood
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« Reply #54 on: Oct 25, 2012, 12:28PM »

 
 the  pretentiousness  and snobbery  of the wanna be  upwardly  or downwardly   mobile
 anthropologically  perceptions    from urban  folk  or  rustic folk
 those   slum  dweller  trailer  trash homeless with laptop
  cyber bully    wimps  competing  in a bulldozed  playing field
 square beyond belief 
manners  do  not  protect  from wolves sharks poisonous  snakes  spiders of  sharks and killer whales politicians preachers  rapists
---------
have  they  gone too far  ???????????
-------------
 send in the drones
----------
we need  more bollywood   --less hollywood

Absolute poetry. 
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« Reply #55 on: Oct 25, 2012, 01:12PM »

And remember, when posting on the Chit-Chat Board:
If Red Hot Mama ain't happy - ain't nobody happy!  :cry:
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« Reply #56 on: Oct 25, 2012, 02:55PM »

 Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant




And remember, when posting on the Chit-Chat Board:
If Red Hot Mama ain't happy - ain't nobody happy!  :cry:
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« Reply #57 on: Oct 26, 2012, 07:49AM »

I confess to being one who posts almost exlusively in PP. I monitor and read many other sections of the forum, but have found my level of expertise to be so lacking that I rarely have much to add that is constructive in those areas. I write a weekly op-ed column in my local paper, and have gotten much relevant data and directions of inquiry from my participation in PP. I, too, am not enamored of the mud/feces slinging that goes on there, and regret that so many of the moderate, intelligent voices who used to participate, from all points on the socio-political spectrum, have been alienated and run off by a few miscreants. I try not to be one of them, but occasionally frustration wins out and I succumb to churlish/ childish responses. What can I say, I'm a weak person  (and, sometimes a real zinger just feels good!) I would hate to see PP go away, but is has devolved into an area where there is really less and less of intellectual value being contributed. A mirror of our society? I would certainly place Dave's contributions to the forum above anything that gets posted in PP. IF it's a choice, this forum is about music and trombones, not politics, I vote for Dave.
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« Reply #58 on: Oct 26, 2012, 08:05AM »

I agree with Russ

if it is a choice b/t losing the benefits/insight/services of a person/player/professional like DG

dump pp

fast
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« Reply #59 on: Oct 26, 2012, 08:13AM »

Rest assured, if the trolls from PP decide to invade the content boards with their attitude or their political discussions, they will be smitten (and struck down and expunged).

What continues to surprise me is that two of the most stalwart trolls in PP are perfect gentlemen outside of that area; one in Healthy Trombonist and one in Technology.
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« Reply #60 on: Oct 26, 2012, 08:38AM »

Rest assured, if the trolls from PP decide to invade the content boards with their attitude or their political discussions, they will be smitten (and struck down and expunged).

What continues to surprise me is that two of the most stalwart trolls in PP are perfect gentlemen outside of that area; one in Healthy Trombonist and one in Technology.

That was my plea for Ronkny. But he got banished and now can't make any positive contributions on the main boards. Too bad a provocateur can't be banished only where the actual breach of TOU occurred.
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« Reply #61 on: Oct 26, 2012, 08:52AM »

He was only given a temporary ban and will be eligible to post as of tomorrow.  Hopefully with a little more respect.  Otherwise he'll be banished permanently.
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« Reply #62 on: Oct 26, 2012, 09:00AM »

He was only given a temporary ban and will be eligible to post as of tomorrow.  Hopefully with a little more respect.  Otherwise he'll be banished permanently.

I was wondering how long he would be benched. As a department head, before I retired, it was my observation that when I suspended an employee, they were changed when they returned. Sometimes it lasted and sometimes it didn't. I hope others don't try intentionally to get under his skin to cause a reaction. I know it won't be me. :) :) :)
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« Reply #63 on: Oct 26, 2012, 09:06AM »

australian  politics  get  brought up    -currently its the latest us  election cycle  getting the most thread/posts
i  respectfully  dissent  with  mister white  on the subject  of dissolution  of pp
 wherefore  mister gibsons decision  to retreat  from ttf  purely   upon political decorum  may  not present  a complete  case  
and  other  reasons  may  be  predominate  such as   many members lack of  proper education  --eg  masters or doctoral  degree in  music
  in fact  i  see it as  an elitist  attempt  to  dumb  down  and  quash  any form of dissent  theretofore  a  wonderful part of
the freedoms of speech  
  in truth the  moderators  are  a self appointed -self selected  secret  society with powers and access  well  beyond  the regular  membership
if a certain moderator  wishes  to  step  down from the  lofty  heights of   mount olympus  let it be  ''for personal  reasons''
 and not because of a proclivity  to  control  persons  behavior  or misbehaviors
    in fact  ttf itself  evolved  from  such  a  trombone  forum  controlled  by persons  of  mister gibson's inclinations
 another  prominent  member  of that  forum  was so  inhibited  and  censored  by that board that he  began  a trombone forum   actually preceeding  ttf
   members were often  suspended  for  a day or week  -content  was  restricted  on  a strictly   music  content  trombone forum
the  result  was  this  still evolving   ttf    which gradually  accepted   the fact that  some trombone players are not  tenured   professors at major music schools
     mister  white's  admission  of greater participation in pp   than other  areas    in fact mirrors  the    vast  and  mostly silent  majority  of members
in comparing  the  open  horn  forum  made   in reference to  above   to the  current ttf   in  may  be surmised   that  as  greater  freedoms  were added  to ttf
  the participation   in  oh   decreased  
     it is also interesting to  note that  at the  highest  level  foundership  idealizations[cyber  access   hosting ]  were  the   same on oh as ttf
if  a  certain  member or  moderator  does  not  wish to view   or participate in   a subject area  -then perhaps a  blockage feature  could be implemented
  reality  tv  in  the us  having  role  models  of  dim witted   vulgarity   head bashing cop shows   slutty ''celebrities ''  --these  are   avoidable  
 and  so  is    pp
    the  fact  that   a  moderator  would  use  that  status  as  moderator       and not  moderator/ member   to  influence  or restrict  the   pp  section
  is  deplorable   deconcerting   and undemocratic  and  jeuvenile appealing to the weak  willed and weak minded  opinionless  dumbded doubled down beaten dog
is  comparable to  the segregationist and formerly non    discrimination  voting  practices   against   blacks  and women
 let  mister  gibsons  vote be equal  to  mister whites  vote  
  if  one  person  does not like  broccoli  --then broccoli    should be  banned  ?????
i  may  not agree with  the  opinions  expressed    or agree with them    but  total  obliteration
 of  one of the  greatest   of  mankinds accomplishments
 //////////the  boundaries   have been   pushed ///////////////////////
  let freedom  ring   and let the voice  of the people  be heard    and let i be  heard here on  ttf
there are those who  say  play your trombone  and shut your mouth
and if you cant play shut your mouth
and  just plain old shut your  mouth
  speak up  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
vote  and  vote   now for  pp
  
  
 
 

  
 
  



I confess to being one who posts almost exlusively in PP. I monitor and read many other sections of the forum, but have found my level of expertise to be so lacking that I rarely have much to add that is constructive in those areas. I write a weekly op-ed column in my local paper, and have gotten much relevant data and directions of inquiry from my participation in PP. I, too, am not enamored of the mud/feces slinging that goes on there, and regret that so many of the moderate, intelligent voices who used to participate, from all points on the socio-political spectrum, have been alienated and run off by a few miscreants. I try not to be one of them, but occasionally frustration wins out and I succumb to churlish/ childish responses. What can I say, I'm a weak person  (and, sometimes a real zinger just feels good!) I would hate to see PP go away, but is has devolved into an area where there is really less and less of intellectual value being contributed. A mirror of our society? I would certainly place Dave's contributions to the forum above anything that gets posted in PP. IF it's a choice, this forum is about music and trombones, not politics, I vote for Dave.
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« Reply #64 on: Oct 26, 2012, 09:08AM »

dissent
nay vote



I agree with Russ

if it is a choice b/t losing the benefits/insight/services of a person/player/professional like DG

dump pp

fast
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« Reply #65 on: Oct 26, 2012, 09:09AM »

50  lashes  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Clever Clever Clever Clever Clever Clever Clever Clever


He was only given a temporary ban and will be eligible to post as of tomorrow.  Hopefully with a little more respect.  Otherwise he'll be banished permanently.
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« Reply #66 on: Oct 26, 2012, 09:41AM »

DJ, we Mods are not really self-selected.  The core group was asked by the Forum Owner to serve.  If Richard was more active, he'd still be the final arbiter of who should be a Mod.

We have a number of ex-moderators who still participate in the Forum.  They have had to step down mostly for personal reasons that create a lack of time to do the stuff we do.  Remember, we don't get any money for what we do, nor do we get much recognition.  Most of what we do is for the love of the instrument, and because we love to help people.

Moderators have the ability to move posts, modify posts, etc.  Administrators (there are 4 of us: RHM, BFW, bhcordova, and me) can also approve and discipline members, create boards, and do some other housekeeping duties.  All of us Staff are dedicated to keeping this a fun place to come and learn about trombone and trombone related activities.  We even allow euphonium players, tuba players, horn players, trumpet players, and even (gasp!) saxophone players to come and participate.  Any body who has an interest in our "ungainly horn" is welcome, provided you don't post a laundry list of (probably counterfeit) electronics or clothing.
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« Reply #67 on: Oct 26, 2012, 10:06AM »

self  selected  --attempt  at diaelectric  dissemination  disscourse  didactic  of  missinformation --smokescreen  --flute players obfuscation



DJ, we Mods are not really self-selected.  The core group was asked by the Forum Owner to serve.  If Richard was more active, he'd still be the final arbiter of who should be a Mod.

We have a number of ex-moderators who still participate in the Forum.  They have had to step down mostly for personal reasons that create a lack of time to do the stuff we do.  Remember, we don't get any money for what we do, nor do we get much recognition.  Most of what we do is for the love of the instrument, and because we love to help people.

Moderators have the ability to move posts, modify posts, etc.  Administrators (there are 4 of us: RHM, BFW, bhcordova, and me) can also approve and discipline members, create boards, and do some other housekeeping duties.  All of us Staff are dedicated to keeping this a fun place to come and learn about trombone and trombone related activities.  We even allow euphonium players, tuba players, horn players, trumpet players, and even (gasp!) saxophone players to come and participate.  Any body who has an interest in our "ungainly horn" is welcome, provided you don't post a laundry list of (probably counterfeit) electronics or clothing.
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« Reply #68 on: Oct 27, 2012, 11:13AM »

Hi All,

John I like your previous post.  I have read the previous descriptions of diversity and primarily what people are describing is more tolerance and respect of others beliefs etc... rather than the actual definition of diversity.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity  showing many useages of the work "Diversity".

So, Dave G.  leave if you want to, but really I don't see what you are getting so upset about.  There are jerks everywhere within life and in a semi-public internet entity such as this forum.  I do understand that being a moderator you must see a lot of disagreements that normal users such as myself do not have to see.  Disputes etc...  you could just step down from being a moderator if that suits you.

PP?  the vast majority of users don't care about it.  I blocked it and was happy about it.  Why is one area of this forum dragging you down so much???  My own petty opinion is that most people do not know how to reason or logically debate their opinions or beliefs.  I see emotive responses to most challenges people have to their belief systems.  Geesh look at the hunting threads...and the people on both sides are not unintelligent or ignorant, just arguing and sometimes mud flinging.  I find it amusing personally, but it is either being amused or being upset.  I choose being amused.

Well, I try to never directly insult people.  Sometimes direct honest language can be misinterpretted as insulting or disrespectful but nonetheless that is not exactly what this thread is addressing.  Calling somebody a name because you don't agree with them is pretty low.  We see this all the time being bombarded with political ads this election year.

Anyways, go or stay the forum will live on, perhaps without PP

Benn
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« Reply #69 on: Oct 27, 2012, 11:24AM »

Sorry all, I did not quote trombonemonkeys previous post.  Here it is

"Diversity" only exists if there is an open and productive dialogue.  That is to say, if there is a situation in which individuals are stifling discussion by their actions, even if those actions are part of said discussion, they are in effect harming efforts toward diversity. 

From a philosophical standpoint, it's similar to the liberties that we have in the United States - we can essentially do whatever we please, so long as we don't interfere with others' prerogative to do the same (which is why we have laws against homicide, hate crimes, etc).  The same philosophy applies here.  If an open forum that promotes diversity and fruitful discussion from all members is the ultimate goal, any members that choose to abuse their freedom to engage in said discussion in an attempt to stop dissenting opinions from being expressed cannot in any way be tolerated.  Members can opine however they please, so long as their actions don't attempt to prevent others' opinions from being expressed through personal attacks.

I am not referencing how mods are selected etc... Don't care...
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« Reply #70 on: Oct 27, 2012, 11:32AM »

Who said I was upset?  Sure there are jerks everywhere, but at this stage of my life, I edit out the jerks. Plenty of venues in my life supply the jerks. When I choose how to spend my free moments, I choose a jerk-free locale. Seems pretty smart to me...and healthy. I'm not sure why you think I am or was upset. I wasn't and am not.

DG
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« Reply #71 on: Oct 27, 2012, 03:52PM »


 I have read the previous descriptions of diversity and primarily what people are describing is more tolerance and respect of others beliefs etc... rather than the actual definition of diversity.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity  showing many useages of the work "Diversity".

Indeed!  Many of us have trouble distinguishing 'tolerance' from 'diversity', or 'tolerance' from 'equality'.  The door must swing both ways; just because some (even a majority) of people find some opinions abhorrent does not mean that said things should necessarily be eliminated from the discourse.  It's the attempts to prevent others from expressing themselves equally that must be eliminated.  Such a balance is really really tough to achieve. 
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« Reply #72 on: Oct 27, 2012, 05:38PM »

No, insults are not productive. We're not breaking any ground with that statement... as far as the internet goes, TTF is a very sterile environment. Lot of thoughtful discussion, too.

 Don't know

Karma/likes/upvotes, in my humble opinion, lend themselves to popularity contests and the hivemind mentality. We do well enough on our own, letting members either put their names behind their advice, or choose to uphold the veil of anonymity. Reading posts and deciding whether or not they have any merit is part of the experience, isn't it? Like a discussion, you let people speak, you listen, and then you say your piece, and listen a whole lot more.

my two cents.
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« Reply #73 on: Oct 27, 2012, 05:57PM »

I lived in the Bronx(NY) for 13 years. There was a huge population of Irish Immigrants. I used to hang at a bar called "Saints and Scholars" It was a wonderful place-hand drawn pints,darts,the whole shebang. Odly-and again-Odly. There were a few guys who came there to get there heads smashed in. Who knows why,but they came there looking for a fight that they would not win. As soon as the wounds would heal,they were right there back again,looking to take a beating. Therapy would have helped these Guys.
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« Reply #74 on: Oct 27, 2012, 06:38PM »

sounds  like  a  wonderful  place to recite    a  few  verses 
//////
 therewas  a  bar in carbondale [il]    small  --you couldnt  walk thru it
   bodies crammed in there   most all  from chicago
  stuffed like  sardines  rub-a-dub
-----------------------------------------
 out on greek islands  on bus  old ladies in black  pushing pushing  pushing in the door
   driver talking   stopping   on road  to   talk to friends in car/trucks



I lived in the Bronx(NY) for 13 years. There was a huge population of Irish Immigrants. I used to hang at a bar called "Saints and Scholars" It was a wonderful place-hand drawn pints,darts,the whole shebang. Odly-and again-Odly. There were a few guys who came there to get there heads smashed in. Who knows why,but they came there looking for a fight that they would not win. As soon as the wounds would heal,they were right there back again,looking to take a beating. Therapy would have helped these Guys.
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« Reply #75 on: Oct 27, 2012, 07:04PM »

Hey DJ-U know waat Im Talkin Aboot
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« Reply #76 on: Oct 27, 2012, 11:50PM »

DJ, we Mods are not really self-selected.  The core group was asked by the Forum Owner to serve.  If Richard was more active, he'd still be the final arbiter of who should be a Mod.

We have a number of ex-moderators who still participate in the Forum.  They have had to step down mostly for personal reasons that create a lack of time to do the stuff we do.  Remember, we don't get any money for what we do, nor do we get much recognition.  Most of what we do is for the love of the instrument, and because we love to help people.

Moderators have the ability to move posts, modify posts, etc.  Administrators (there are 4 of us: RHM, BFW, bhcordova, and me) can also approve and discipline members, create boards, and do some other housekeeping duties.  All of us Staff are dedicated to keeping this a fun place to come and learn about trombone and trombone related activities.  We even allow euphonium players, tuba players, horn players, trumpet players, and even (gasp!) saxophone players to come and participate.  Any body who has an interest in our "ungainly horn" is welcome, provided you don't post a laundry list of (probably counterfeit) electronics or clothing.

Bingo.

As far as I am concerned, I'm all for open elections for Moderators.

Maybe we should have term limits?

Maybe having a broader range of members serve as Moderators would be healthy for the forums?

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« Reply #77 on: Oct 28, 2012, 12:25AM »

are we debating how people should act, or whether to do away with PP? i can't tell. realistically we can only affect one of those.
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« Reply #78 on: Oct 28, 2012, 12:27AM »

Bingo.

As far as I am concerned, I'm all for open elections for Moderators.

Maybe we should have term limits?

Maybe having a broader range of members serve as Moderators would be healthy for the forums?


Dunno about this.  I've been (and still am) a moderator in other forums.  It requires a key combination of skills:  very level-headed and generally not reactive, experienced in moderating forums and the kinds of issues that arise, plus experience and technical knowledge about the forum being moderated.  These are not the attributes I think are effectively selected in a popularity contest (i.e., vote).  

As far as term limits, moderating is a generally thankless job and most forums should be happy IMO to retain good moderators as long as they are willing to serve.

Tom, you are yourself a moderator, so is there an aspect of moderation that is not working well for you that these proposals would address?  (I am, of course, not privy to any particular moderation actions you have taken, but I can give the feedback that from your posts you are eminently qualified by the criteria I listed.  I hope that you will take my post here as a potential alternative perspective rather than anything critical, because I intend no criticism.)

---------------

In regards to the initial issue that started this topic, as long as I never venture near PP it is extremely rare for me to have a problem with TTF member courtesy.  TTF is very well run in comparison to a lot of other forums, and the moderators do a great job.
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« Reply #79 on: Oct 28, 2012, 12:33AM »

are we debating how people should act, or whether to do away with PP? i can't tell. realistically we can only affect one of those.

Is there a point in doing away with PP when it is easily ignored by those who don't want to see it?  I never look at it, but it's fine with me if hotheads need a place to blow off steam.

As far as debating how people should act, is there a debate?  PP: anything goes, everywhere else: rules of decorum and TOU are enforced.  The rules are in place, and from what I can see, seem to be working fine.
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« Reply #80 on: Oct 28, 2012, 12:47AM »

Is there a point in doing away with PP when it is easily ignored by those who don't want to see it?  I never look at it, but it's fine with me if hotheads need a place to blow off steam.

As far as debating how people should act, is there a debate?  PP: anything goes, everywhere else: rules of decorum and TOU are enforced.  The rules are in place, and from what I can see, seem to be working fine.

actually - you're right. it isn't a debate.

it sounded like a reminder, but then people started to defend the way things are. if we're going to defend the way things are, that's the way the forum will be.

definitely didn't mean as though the discussion shouldn't continue.

shouldn't have posted.
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« Reply #81 on: Oct 28, 2012, 01:21AM »


shouldn't have posted.

I didn't see anything wrong with your post.  It was polite and it made me think.  No reason not to post it!
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« Reply #82 on: Oct 28, 2012, 01:57AM »

One think I wish I could impose is an "opt in" characteristic of a board.  Right now you can "opt out" only.  I would make PP an "opt in" so a member has to specifically enable that board or it doesn't show.

There are many areas in Practice Break that are innocent fun and the kids really get involved.  I'm thinking particularly of "Last one to post wins".  For some reason that has a cadre of people putting in all kinds of stuff for an honor that is fleeting at best.  Would I want to eliminate it?  No.

I would hope that people here distinguish between the "content" sections and the "fun" sections.

Also, remember that it's impossible to tell who is a great player of renown and who is a "shlepper" who can barely play two Bbs.  Whatever is posted needs to be evaluated.  And the great players should not take offense when someone else questions their comments.  It's all part of the game.
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« Reply #83 on: Oct 28, 2012, 05:35AM »

One think I wish I could impose is an "opt in" characteristic of a board.  Right now you can "opt out" only.  I would make PP an "opt in" so a member has to specifically enable that board or it doesn't show.
(snip)

...something to keep in mind for future upgrades.  Perhaps a fund could be set up for members' donations towards that end.  Idea!
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« Reply #84 on: Oct 28, 2012, 08:28AM »

Excluding PP posts from the "last post" and "recent posts" features of the home page could keep PP from being incessant in-your-face "front page news" while still allowing free dialogue within the forum. PP does seem to dominate "recent posts" in a way that suggests a more prominent role in the forum than it probably merits. Just a thought.
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« Reply #85 on: Oct 28, 2012, 08:47AM »

Excluding PP posts from the "last post" and "recent posts" features of the home page could keep PP from being incessant in-your-face "front page news" while still allowing free dialogue within the forum. PP does seem to dominate "recent posts" in a way that suggests a more prominent role in the forum than it probably merits. Just a thought.

+1
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« Reply #86 on: Oct 28, 2012, 01:18PM »

Excluding PP posts from the "last post" and "recent posts" features of the home page could keep PP from being incessant in-your-face "front page news" while still allowing free dialogue within the forum. PP does seem to dominate "recent posts" in a way that suggests a more prominent role in the forum than it probably merits. Just a thought.

You can --- just choose to "ignore" these discussions via your settings.

Profile > Ignore Boards Preferences
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« Reply #87 on: Oct 28, 2012, 02:22PM »

I think that a lot of the discussion (while completely valid and pertinent to the overall health of the forum) hasn't really addressed Dave's original point - that some of the unnecessary antagonism that takes place in specific areas on the forum bleeds to other areas and affects the overall willingness of members to contribute freely and mutually respect one another. 

Blocking specific sections is cool - I do it myself, but it doesn't solve the above problem.  Members either have respect for one another and a commitment to diversity or they don't.  Such a thing cannot be turned on or off when posting in certain areas, although the manifestation of insults apparently can.  The point is that if a member is insulting other members in order to belittle their contributions, it is because (s)he doesn't respect them and doesn't value diversity.  Such a thing cannot be confined to one area. 



Disclaimer: I'm not saying that any of the Moderators or Administrators are in any way responsible for this type of thing.  Quite the contrary.  I really appreciate each of your commitment to this online experience. 
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« Reply #88 on: Oct 28, 2012, 05:22PM »

OBTW: just because I have "opted-out" of posting to PP, doesn't mean I will not post to "Chit-Chat".  Dob't make me regret THAT! AND Lol. :)
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« Reply #89 on: Oct 28, 2012, 06:01PM »

Is it a TTF problem, or a virtual world problem?

There are many websites out there where people are allowed to post.  Have you ever browsed the "Comments" on a really popular YouTube video?  It's shocking.  You'd think some of these people were ready to kill each other.  They insult each other, they use foul language, they have absolutely no respect for anybody else's opinions.

Why do they get away with it?

Because they're anonymous and absent.

(Some) people say things online that they would never say to another person's face.  They hurl insults that would likely cause a physical altercation.  They pass judgements that could completely destroy another person's psyche.  They use racial slurs and bigotry that they would (hopefully) not use in person, and for what purpose?  To try to be right.  To try to win an argument.  To feel powerful for 2 seconds.

I (and very likely many of you) would like to believe that because we TTF members share some common ground in the trombone that we'd remember that once in a while.  I'd also like to believe that everyone could remember that we come from different schools of thought and different schools of music and that when there is a difference in opinion or approach that it isn't the difference between right and wrong.

I'm guessing that if TTF was a physical place where we met face to face, we'd all be more careful.  (And by the way, there's plenty of vitriol to go around outside Purely Politics.)  I'd like to believe we could all be professional and polite, at least until the drinks caught up with us.

Things will get heated; we are all passionate about what we do and would defend it to the death. 

My rule of thumb is this:  be careful what you say and how you say it, because we're all trombone players (or lovers) and it would suck to get beat up at the ITF someday over a toxic post.
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« Reply #90 on: Oct 28, 2012, 06:05PM »

Is it a TTF problem, or a virtual world problem?

There are many websites out there where people are allowed to post.  Have you ever browsed the "Comments" on a really popular YouTube video?  It's shocking.  You'd think some of these people were ready to kill each other.  They insult each other, they use foul language, they have absolutely no respect for anybody else's opinions.

Why do they get away with it?

Because they're anonymous and absent.

(Some) people say things online that they would never say to another person's face.  They hurl insults that would likely cause a physical altercation.  They pass judgements that could completely destroy another person's psyche.  They use racial slurs and bigotry that they would (hopefully) not use in person, and for what purpose?  To try to be right.  To try to win an argument.  To feel powerful for 2 seconds.

I (and very likely many of you) would like to believe that because we TTF members share some common ground in the trombone that we'd remember that once in a while.  I'd also like to believe that everyone could remember that we come from different schools of thought and different schools of music and that when there is a difference in opinion or approach that it isn't the difference between right and wrong.

Things will get heated; we are all passionate about what we do and would defend it to the death. 

My rule of thumb is this:  be careful what you say and how you say it, because we're all trombone players (or lovers) and it would suck to get beat up at the ITF someday over a toxic post.

What you said and you know what - I would go to war with anyone who would berate TTF. And this from one who would eshew violence. There is always a line...
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« Reply #91 on: Oct 28, 2012, 09:38PM »

I added a little to my post while Geezerhorn was responding, so if anyone's interested scroll up one more. 
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« Reply #92 on: Oct 29, 2012, 01:00AM »

I remember when e-mail first became available in companies back in the 80s.

Little thought or reflection ---> fast fingers ---> insult. A boss of mine would print a bad e-mail, take it to the person in their cubicle and discuss it with them. It was an effective technique to overcome misunderstandings when face to face was possible.

Now, 30 years later, we are worldwide. Faster fingers, more people, and more (or less) to discuss. And you can be more or less anonymous. I don't have time to read half of the "important" work e-mails that come to my in-baskets.

Some people aren't nice. When I identify them, I spend my time elsewhere. This is in all aspects of my life.

Other people are thoughtful, considerate, helpful, and friendly. I have a lot of time for these folks. You know who you and they are. Some good people have bad days online; so I try to not judge too quickly.

And what you write is kept forever.
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« Reply #93 on: Oct 29, 2012, 01:39AM »

I think I should say that this debate is taking place at a time when, from as far as I can tell from the mods board, we are having the quietest time since I began moderating. The vast majority of people are getting along fine and seem okay with the present form of the forum.
I am not trying to belittle any concerns expressed here, simply underline the context of the debate.

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« Reply #94 on: Oct 29, 2012, 03:51AM »

As far as debating how people should act, is there a debate?  PP: anything goes, everywhere else: rules of decorum and TOU are enforced.  The rules are in place, and from what I can see, seem to be working fine.

Yep.

I think I should say that this debate is taking place at a time when, from as far as I can tell from the mods board, we are having the quietest time since I began moderating. The vast majority of people are getting along fine and seem okay with the present form of the forum.

Yep.
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« Reply #95 on: Oct 29, 2012, 05:42AM »

I've never understood the value in insulting someone with whom we disagree. It reveals a sadistic intent within us while doing nothing to buttress our argument. It makes US look bad. It's a childish reflex that results in destructive behavior. It doesn't seem impossible to me for a group of adult music lovers to discuss a range of topics on which they may agree or disagree without resorting to insults.

DG

It doesn't seem impossible to me, either. True, things are fairly quiet around these here parts lately. Be nice to keep things that way.

BTW, I don't buy into the whole "That's the way the Internet is" argument that has been mentioned numerous times earlier on this thread. The realist in me accepts that this is so (for now at least), but the idealist in me (and, I believe, also in Dave) hopes for something better than the status quo. There will always be rude, obnoxious people, in both real life, and on the internet. Perhaps there would be far fewer of them if the rest of us didn't just sit back and say "That's the way the Internet is." Don't complain about how rude teens are/can be these days, without also accepting the fact that many of them learned that kind of behavior from the internet, and then act the same way in the real world.

Ya gotta start SOMEWHERE, people. Why not here? Nobody's saying you shouldn't have opinions, or that you should conform to a certain style of posting. Just be nice to each other, even when you don't agree.
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« Reply #96 on: Oct 29, 2012, 05:51AM »

Just be nice to each other, even when you don't agree.

Yep!!!!
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« Reply #97 on: Oct 29, 2012, 06:16AM »

Lotta "Yep"-ing from you today, RHM!    Good!
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« Reply #98 on: Oct 29, 2012, 06:23AM »

I've stepped back from the PP because it is nothing but mental diarrhea at this point. What started as discussion has dissolved into a cesspool of divisive ranting.
Agreed 100%.
I blocked PP, with no intents of going back.

As someone else stated... I'm a member else where too - no politics. Any political post are removed, and the poster warned.
1st warning - 1 week time out
2nd warning - 1 month time out
3rd offense - your IP addy is banned for life.
Pretty simple, and VERY civil.

T.
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« Reply #99 on: Oct 29, 2012, 06:36AM »

Lotta "Yep"-ing from you today, RHM!    Good!

That's because we don't have the "Like" button ;-)
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« Reply #100 on: Oct 29, 2012, 07:13AM »

Sadly, I opted out of PP a week or so ago.  Not because I couldn't stand the heat, insults, etc.  I actually enjoyed that aspect of it and I wish we could have an adult section where you MUST opt in to join in and it's a Katy-bar-the-door area - may the best one win.  Remember how popular that one TV show was in the 90's, where chairs would go flying across the set?  However, the reason why I opted out was that I didn't want any person or any organization looking at TTF, knowing that I was a member and then me being embarrassed when they saw I was involved in PP.  So, it was a purely selfish reason on my part.  Maybe there is a lesson for you young adults or other job-seekers out there.  Put a nasty on Facebook and maybe you don't get hired.  If FB is front-and-center that way, can other social sites - like TTF maybe - be that far behind?   Don't know and don't care to find out - the hard way.   Bad dog.  No Biscuits.  Ohhhhhh, you can call me paranoid, or you can call me a goody-goody, but you doesn't has to call me an embarrassment.
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« Reply #101 on: Oct 29, 2012, 07:22AM »


Just be nice to each other, even when you don't agree.


Disagree without being disagreeable? What a concept!!
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« Reply #102 on: Oct 29, 2012, 07:44PM »

Disagree without being disagreeable? What a concept!!

We'd be far better off if people would remember this both online and during in-person contact with one another.

Or, as Thumper said in the story of Bambi, "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all."   ;-)
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« Reply #103 on: Oct 29, 2012, 11:07PM »

gee  how much fun is that ??????
pablum ----baby food
bland
boring
dull
the very idea is an insult to the uncreative 
without drama  what is shakespere ???? opera  ???? or etude 
no salt 
no pepper
no spice
wouldnt that be  nice
no storm
READ ABOUT IT  JEHOVAH'S  WITNESS
SUFFERING  ENDS  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Disagree without being disagreeable? What a concept!!
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« Reply #104 on: Oct 30, 2012, 12:50AM »

gee  how much fun is that ??????
pablum ----baby food
bland
boring
dull

Live in a euphonium world - round, soft. maybe some vibrato?
Trombones without edge... some conductors want that.
Put your bicycle helmet on, even if you are just walking.
Nerf is where it's at, baby.

That wasn't just a dry cracker - it was wheat germ
Respect the cracker.
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« Reply #105 on: Oct 31, 2012, 04:06PM »

One trick that helps me is that I don't like something I don't read it.
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« Reply #106 on: Oct 31, 2012, 06:07PM »

One trick that helps me is that I don't like something I don't read it.

Am I the only one scratching their head and spinning in mental circles on that one?
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« Reply #107 on: Oct 31, 2012, 06:25PM »

Am I the only one scratching their head and spinning in mental circles on that one?

Nope.
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« Reply #108 on: Oct 31, 2012, 07:06PM »

 scooby  doo dot
re bop
 bubba  loo
   waterloo
  stuck in the muddle  middle  mind
twirling swirling
    MENTAL    CIRC  DU  SOLO
------
 RETRICK  U LATIONS
CONN GRAVIS  U LATIONS
   fortunado
    ferdtissimo 
  -------------
shovel  the     twix  candy  parade
 --------------
    drum roll
---------------------
  alto  ---4
---------
 carl  bops fiercly 


Am I the only one scratching their head and spinning in mental circles on that one?



Edit: Quote formatted by moderator
.
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« Reply #109 on: Oct 31, 2012, 09:18PM »

What I meant was if a web site writes material that I find offensive I don't go back. Works every time. Sorry for not being clear
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« Reply #110 on: Oct 31, 2012, 10:59PM »

If it's one thing I can't stand,
is something I don't like.
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« Reply #111 on: Oct 31, 2012, 11:07PM »

Dunno about this.  I've been (and still am) a moderator in other forums.  It requires a key combination of skills:  very level-headed and generally not reactive, experienced in moderating forums and the kinds of issues that arise, plus experience and technical knowledge about the forum being moderated.  These are not the attributes I think are effectively selected in a popularity contest (i.e., vote).  

As far as term limits, moderating is a generally thankless job and most forums should be happy IMO to retain good moderators as long as they are willing to serve.

Tom, you are yourself a moderator, so is there an aspect of moderation that is not working well for you that these proposals would address?  (I am, of course, not privy to any particular moderation actions you have taken, but I can give the feedback that from your posts you are eminently qualified by the criteria I listed.  I hope that you will take my post here as a potential alternative perspective rather than anything critical, because I intend no criticism.)

---------------

In regards to the initial issue that started this topic, as long as I never venture near PP it is extremely rare for me to have a problem with TTF member courtesy.  TTF is very well run in comparison to a lot of other forums, and the moderators do a great job.

Thank you, Howard, for your vote of confidence!

My suggestion - if ever carried out - would simply give more people a chance at seeing what it's like to moderate. Let anyone interested in serving be "cruise director" for awhile, and see what kind of vision they can bring to the mostly mundane / sometimes insane task of keeping all the members in-line with the TOU.
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« Reply #112 on: Nov 01, 2012, 05:31PM »

Thank you, Howard, for your vote of confidence!

My suggestion - if ever carried out - would simply give more people a chance at seeing what it's like to moderate. Let anyone interested in serving be "cruise director" for awhile, and see what kind of vision they can bring to the mostly mundane / sometimes insane task of keeping all the members in-line with the TOU.

You're quite welcome.

Good point:  Nothing changes one's perspective about the job moderators are doing like sitting in the moderator chair for a while. 
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« Reply #113 on: Nov 03, 2012, 06:25AM »

insults?

Everybody knows there are two things you should not discuss at a party, politics or religion.

Why?

Because discussion will be endless and pointless.
There will be no easy answers that could be solved at a party, and the subjects will always lead to disagreements. When opinions are not taken serious, and discussion runs out of words, harsh language and insults will follow. At a party this could lead to a fist fight. Between nations this leads to war. So let us avoid this at a forum about something that is far away of politics.

Music is about love and passion and this should also be the spirit of this forum.

I agree, with the one in this thread that says the forum should remove the political discussions. They are not fruitful and doesn't belong at a forum about loving music and playing trombone. The same goes for any religious discussions. 

There are other forums about theese matters.

/Tom
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« Reply #114 on: Nov 03, 2012, 07:21AM »

Excluding PP posts from the "last post" and "recent posts" features of the home page could keep PP from being incessant in-your-face "front page news" while still allowing free dialogue within the forum. PP does seem to dominate "recent posts" in a way that suggests a more prominent role in the forum than it probably merits. Just a thought.

Very good thought BiggieSmalls :)

I'd like this suggestion since I'm not interested in knowing about new post in the forum about the current election in the U.S.A? If I want to know about this I can read a newspaper or find another forum. I am only interested in music, and to help people, if I have anything to add to a subject. Good! Good! Good! Good! Good! Good! Good! Good! Good!
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« Reply #115 on: Nov 03, 2012, 07:36AM »

You can --- just choose to "ignore" these discussions via your settings.

Profile > Ignore Boards Preferences

Thank you Thomas Matta!

This was important to me. I did not know I could get rid of the unwanted posts that easy. I'll keep the Chit-Chat discussions since there are some non political and non religious subjects there to read. I think my view of the forum looks better now! Good!

/Tom
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« Reply #116 on: Nov 03, 2012, 07:58AM »

insults?

Everybody knows there are two things you should not discuss at a party, politics or religion.

Why?

Because discussion will be endless and pointless.
There will be no easy answers that could be solved at a party, and the subjects will always lead to disagreements. When opinions are not taken serious, and discussion runs out of words, harsh language and insults will follow. At a party this could lead to a fist fight. Between nations this leads to war. So let us avoid this at a forum about something that is far away of politics.

Music is about love and passion and this should also be the spirit of this forum.

I agree, with the one in this thread that says the forum should remove the political discussions. They are not fruitful and doesn't belong at a forum about loving music and playing trombone. The same goes for any religious discussions. 

There are other forums about theese matters.

/Tom
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« Reply #117 on: Nov 03, 2012, 08:58AM »

Excluding PP posts from the "last post" and "recent posts" features of the home page could keep PP from being incessant in-your-face "front page news" while still allowing free dialogue within the forum. PP does seem to dominate "recent posts" in a way that suggests a more prominent role in the forum than it probably merits. Just a thought.

I should have been clearer about this suggestion, which is really about making the home page more appealing to the many guests who visit this forum and don't have the option of changing profile settings. For a first-time visitor (and hopefully future member!), seeing post titles like "Obama is the worst president ever" alternating half a dozen times with "Romney is the worst president ever" in the "most recent posts" at the bottom of the home page can't instill much confidence in (and certainly isn't representative of) the overall tenor of this site. If a visitor wants to read political opinions on a site about trombones and music, they can seek out and click on that tiny little box under "Chit-Chat" labeled "Purely Politics".
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« Reply #118 on: Nov 03, 2012, 10:45AM »

I would love to do what you want, but I don't have the option to make a board "opt in".  If I could, I could make the default to hide PP and only when you join and ask to belong you will get PP.

I hope Richard is following this and can make the appropriate adjustment.
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« Reply #119 on: Nov 03, 2012, 11:53AM »

I should have been clearer about this suggestion, which is really about making the home page more appealing to the many guests who visit this forum and don't have the option of changing profile settings. For a first-time visitor (and hopefully future member!), seeing post titles like "Obama is the worst president ever" alternating half a dozen times with "Romney is the worst president ever" in the "most recent posts" at the bottom of the home page can't instill much confidence in (and certainly isn't representative of) the overall tenor of this site. If a visitor wants to read political opinions on a site about trombones and music, they can seek out and click on that tiny little box under "Chit-Chat" labeled "Purely Politics".

Ah - I see your point. Good idea.

And like Bruce points out, we need the site owner to make that option available.
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« Reply #120 on: Nov 03, 2012, 10:11PM »

RICHARD IS HAVING SOUP
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« Reply #121 on: Nov 04, 2012, 05:15AM »

For a first-time visitor (and hopefully future member!), seeing post titles like "Obama is the worst president ever" alternating half a dozen times with "Romney is the worst president ever" in the "most recent posts" at the bottom of the home page can't instill much confidence in (and certainly isn't representative of) the overall tenor of this site.

I agree entirely and, like Bruce, would love to be able to modify the "recent posts" function in the way you suggest. It sounds like such a simple thing! We (the Admins) can create or modify entire boards with just a mouse click, but, for some reason, this particular function is a coding issue, for which we (the Admins) don't have permission. I'm sorry. :(
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« Reply #122 on: Nov 04, 2012, 05:07PM »

Bruce, Thomas, Christine, et al: thanks for your responses. Your work here is very much appreciated!  Hi
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« Reply #123 on: Nov 04, 2012, 05:16PM »

Bruce, Thomas, Christine, et al: thanks for your responses. Your work here is very much appreciated!  Hi

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rlb
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« Reply #124 on: Nov 08, 2012, 08:01AM »

I would love to do what you want, but I don't have the option to make a board "opt in".  If I could, I could make the default to hide PP and only when you join and ask to belong you will get PP.

I hope Richard is following this and can make the appropriate adjustment.

I am, and one of the new bits will be that new users will get a default set of boards, with the ability to add others upon reaching level 2 of membership.

Actually, I'm cooking soup. The eating is for this evening.

R

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Dr. Richard L. Byrd, Forum Director
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BGuttman
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« Reply #125 on: Nov 08, 2012, 08:07AM »

Thank you, Richard.  Hope you are OK; you have been dealing with a lot of health issues.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #126 on: Nov 08, 2012, 08:08AM »

Soup is good! :)
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Christine (red hot - that's what!)
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« Reply #127 on: Nov 08, 2012, 08:14AM »

RLB, sorry to hear vaguely about your health problems; though I don't know you, I have benefited much from your lil forum here. I hope it's nothing too serious, and wish you all the best.

Thanks for reading through these suggestions and thinking of your own ways to improve the forum. I think it's swell.
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ronkny

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« Reply #128 on: Nov 08, 2012, 08:15AM »

Thank you, Richard.  Hope you are OK; you have been dealing with a lot of health issues.

Why are you making that public?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #129 on: Nov 08, 2012, 08:20AM »

Why are you making that public?

Because he did in another thread.
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« Reply #130 on: Nov 08, 2012, 08:28AM »

Why are you making that public?

We do NOT reveal secrets here! Bad dog.  No Biscuits.

As Bruce said, Richard himself posted about his health issues...

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,64746.msg907473.html#msg907473
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« Reply #131 on: Nov 08, 2012, 09:44AM »

well  you   are  very sick  too 
  and post  election depression is treatable
   with  therapy and medications
trombone  playing is  an excellent stress reliever  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Why are you making that public?
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« Reply #132 on: Nov 08, 2012, 09:50AM »

SOUP   SOUP  SOUP   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
========================
 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant Idea! Idea! Idea! Idea! Idea! Idea!
========================
 glad  you  are slurping well   !!!!!!!!!!!!
=========================
  the new classified  ad   thread  style  --i guess  its  working
 and  ABSOLUTELY  NO DETECTABLE  SCAMMERS  !!!!!!!!!
--------
 more transparency in the  want to buy   //for sale   is good
========
  many  forget   POLITICS is listed in =CHILD BOARDS   !!!!
=========
 HEY RLB  --- Sing it! Sing it! Sing it! Sing it! Sing it! Sing it! Sing it! Sing it! Sing it! Sing it!






I am, and one of the new bits will be that new users will get a default set of boards, with the ability to add others upon reaching level 2 of membership.

Actually, I'm cooking soup. The eating is for this evening.

R


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« Reply #133 on: Nov 08, 2012, 10:13AM »

well  you   are  very sick  too 
  and post  election depression is treatable
   with  therapy and medications
trombone  playing is  an excellent stress reliever  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



No depression.  I'm looking forward to 2014 and 2016!
Playing is usually a stress reliever except 12 tone stuff is starting to stress me out!
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« Reply #134 on: Nov 08, 2012, 02:20PM »

I like the changes Richard proposes. However, I do not think it is a solution to the member behaviour that David was complaining about, viz

Quote
I've never understood the value in insulting someone with whom we disagree. It reveals a sadistic intent within us while doing nothing to buttress our argument. It makes US look bad. It's a childish reflex that results in destructive behavior. It doesn't seem impossible to me for a group of adult music lovers to discuss a range of topics on which they may agree or disagree without resorting to insults.

DG

It is a fact that insulting language is now used extensively in the Purely Politics area and I feel this is better handled by the moderators banning the trouble makers, rather than trying to appeal to their better nature - which they obviously do not have. I cannot for the life of me see why the mods do not use their powers and apply the TOU. Is there maybe some argument in mods corner about what constitutes a breach of the TOU? Checking duplicate accounts would be a good starting place.

As I have said previously, I have never seen a valid reason for the Purely Politics area subject matter being separate from Chit Chat. Creating that section in the first place only encouraged more political discussion. Compare the old forum, prior to Purely Politics, and you will see what I mean.

I am much in agreement with the complaints that BiggieSmalls has about this forum. If I was American, I would not like any of my mates to know that I belonged to a forum that has such embarrassing topics and where the members use such insulting language. Aussies are much rougher spoken than most but even I am surprised at what is presently allowed on this forum. I particularly would not recommend the forum to any youngsters because I think some of the behaviour constitutes bullying, which we are busy trying to cut out in Australia. Run "Show unread topics since last visit" and you will see what I mean about that topic list; almost making it look like they are the main content. It is not just the immediate past election in the US that has caused this.

There are really only two or three members who are creating the main problem and think we all know who they are. They are not much better than trolls. Deal with it mods!

Update:

Aha! One gone already. Thanks guys.
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« Reply #135 on: Nov 08, 2012, 03:05PM »

that  12   stone    --i mean tone  stuff   its   about as  bad   as the cycle  of  flats 
                         and the booze  scale 


No depression.  I'm looking forward to 2014 and 2016!
Playing is usually a stress reliever except 12 tone stuff is starting to stress me out!
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« Reply #136 on: Nov 09, 2012, 08:12PM »

I had an idea that's a completely business-oriented approach to this problem. It will end the insult problem with no rules changes, no recoding, and no getting rid of PP.

The problem:

1) The mods get sick of babysitting PP.
2) Everyone seems to think he or she could do better, which I doubt.
3) Members are poorly self-regulating.
4) Some people seem hyper-sensitive and complain about posts that aren't really bad at all.

I can solve this problem, just by opening a thread.

The name of the thread is "Rogue's Gallery".

It works like this:
1)Anyone who wants to can quote a post that falls into the category of the type of content that drives people out of the joint. It doesn't have to be a TOU violation, just the type of non-productive junk that sometimes pollutes the forum.
2)The quote has to be complete, and made without comment.
3)No one is allowed to comment in this thread (besides quoting posts), except the perp is allowed one defense.
4) All entries have to be later than the creation of the thread, so people can't go 'grievance-mining".
4) Mods can simply delete posts that break the above rules.

This solves all of the problems above. The mods can simply scan the thread occasionally and see if any of it concerns them, and enforce the simple rules. The 'amateur mods' who seem to abound here can do their damnedest. People will self-edit their little masterpieces and avoid that one last twist of the knife to avoid inclusion in the gallery. And the crybabies who think they're unfairly treated will appear foolish when they include posts that there's no serious problem with.

What think?
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« Reply #137 on: Nov 09, 2012, 08:26PM »

I'd like some soup.
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Thomas Matta
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« Reply #138 on: Nov 09, 2012, 08:52PM »

its been a spaghetti  week  !!!
truitt started it    w  a batch of  bow tie stuff
  well   its hard to imagine  but it tasted  like  chef  boyardee   --
been awhile  since i  was on a spaghetti  binge 
  so  fired up the  crock pot 
which is   what  you put the remains in     after    gorging 
  billo  ate   three bowls     --it was   the  spinach 
mushrooms   -----
   all gone
so this  morning billo  says
  hey can you make some more spaghetti  ????????????????
bunch of  ground chuck --
 and a stash of dried  oyster [elephant ear]     and a dried port
  into  the  spaghetti  boiling water 
boom they  went bach  into     shape 
   angle hair  [got overcooked    too much going on to watch]
hunts plain sauce --spice it up   ---------whole garlic cloves  olive oil  butter
   jarlsberg  swiss 
---------
  billo  eats  four bowls  sam eats  two bowls  and took a bag home
===========
carol  made  soup   earlier this week w amish chicken stock 




I'd like some soup.
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« Reply #139 on: Nov 09, 2012, 10:06PM »

Carrie made some stellar butternut squash soup a couple weeks back. I'm jonesin' for more.

It's the season.

A good cream soup is never insulting, nor will it ever depress me!
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Thomas Matta
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« Reply #140 on: Nov 10, 2012, 09:02AM »


mushrooms   -----
   all gone


You don't say. . .   :-P
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« Reply #141 on: Nov 10, 2012, 11:42AM »

 
  so  fired up the  crock pot 
which is   what  you put the remains in     after    gorging 


Sounds like "Rogue's Soup"!

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« Reply #142 on: Nov 10, 2012, 07:42PM »

The best wild mushrooms I've had have been dried and brought back to life (and I'm talking about the good tasting ones, not the bad-tasting ones that you eat anyway). Something about drying mushrooms concentrates the flavor.
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« Reply #143 on: Nov 10, 2012, 07:43PM »

Sounds like "Rogue's Soup"!

My idea got lost in the soup. Maybe it's for the best.
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« Reply #144 on: Nov 12, 2012, 12:11AM »

The best wild mushrooms I've had have been dried and brought back to life (and I'm talking about the good tasting ones, not the bad-tasting ones that you eat anyway). Something about drying mushrooms concentrates the flavor.

I love using ground / dried mushroom powder --- bam!!! So much labor when you don't have fresh, and/or you don't need or want the texture of fresh mushrooms...
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Thomas Matta
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