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Author Topic: 1st position trigger low F  (Read 7803 times)
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maglame
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« on: Sep 02, 2013, 08:43AM »

Hey! So I took some lessons a while back when i switched to bass (might have to switch back unfortunately, but that's another story). One of the things I got told repeatedly was that my 1st position trigger low F ( ) was really flat. So the teacher wrote a bunch of (1) into my music to make me play all of those in first. Now a few months later I still can't get it. I can lip it up to almost be right, but then it flips over to a C....  Don't know
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bassboneman

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« Reply #1 on: Sep 02, 2013, 08:48AM »

What kind of horn are you playing on? What size mouthpiece?

Sam
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maglame
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« Reply #2 on: Sep 02, 2013, 09:06AM »

Conn 110H w/ a 1 1/2 G mouthpiece
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BGuttman
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« Reply #3 on: Sep 02, 2013, 09:10AM »

The low F is really flat.  I have slide springs and will pull in really far.

What I found works for me is to tune the attachment so the low F is in tune (C is then out about 1/2 inch).  This lets me play the low F's in 1st when I need them.

An Indy can often help here where you can play the low F in a short 2nd using only the Gb valve.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 02, 2013, 09:14AM »

That would be possible, but I'm asking because it seemed like he didn't want me to do that, and I thought perhaps it might indicate something wrong about my playing. FWIW I have the main tuning slide all the way in, and still my concert Bb is a little flat (have to push it up). Luckily I do have enough left of the trigger tuning slide to get the F in first if I want to.
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bassboneman

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« Reply #5 on: Sep 02, 2013, 09:30AM »

HMMmmm...
Is it possible the mouthpiece doesn't have a long enough shank?
(I have the opposite problem with my Edwards  :cry: - I play very sharp!)

I don't know anything about the 110H (except it is a bass)

Can your teacher play the horn in tune? Usually, if a student of mine has issues, extreme-recurring issues - I try to recreate the same issue myself. That way you can rule out the horn. I did have one student who had a King 606 that was just BAD! It played so sharp it was painful!

I hope you get some better responses - clearly mine are lame  :/
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« Reply #6 on: Sep 02, 2013, 10:20AM »

Mine is as well, and I don't play a bass. When I pull out a tuner, it actually reads it as a perfectly tune E.
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 02, 2013, 10:39AM »

How flat are you with the tuning slide all the way in?

It's entirely possible that the instrument is overall a little long, and that the F valve tubing is too long. I have a vague memory of playing a 112H that needed the F tubing shortened.

That said, it's also very likely that, in the switch to bass trombone, you are simply playing with an embouchure that's too loose. This happens sometimes at first, when tenor players play low notes on bass trombone the same way they played them on a much smaller tenor.

Does your teacher work with you on mouthpiece practice without the instrument? I find this to be a good way to get better centered on the pitch. 
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Gabe Langfur
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 02, 2013, 11:03AM »

Like Gabe said, that's a common problem with modern basses, for the F side to be too long.

Also, barring that, it's also very easy to play that note flat- I've had to work for a long time to keep that nice and centered. It's a problem I see with basically everyone, tenor and bass players.
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« Reply #9 on: Sep 02, 2013, 12:01PM »

I've played some Conns that to get that note in tune I needed the F slide all the way in and about 1/2" in on the springs.  If yours is like this, have a tech take about 1/2" off the F slide.

If you are tuning your attachment to C, don't.  It should be tuned to an F.  You should be pulling out for the C, not pulling in for an F.
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« Reply #10 on: Sep 02, 2013, 12:14PM »

Something I have started doing is "short sliding" my trombones. I put the "" around it because I am not actually cutting the tuning slides. My 2B SS, which I have played for a long time, has the short tuning slide option and I like that. I tune my bass in so 1st position is actually out about an inch ( so I can just see the slide lock part on the slide over the cork barrel. It lets me pull the slide in if I need to ( no springs ) and use slide vibrato in 1st if I need to as well. I do this with my Super, too.
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« Reply #11 on: Sep 02, 2013, 12:18PM »

Note that if you tune the F-attachment to match the F's in the bass staff  , the low F will be horrendously flat.  That F in 6th position is actually a tad sharp.  Use a tuner and make low F be in tune with the springs slightly compressed.  Then learn to play low C (and any higher trigger notes) with the slide slightly out from 1st.
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« Reply #12 on: Sep 02, 2013, 12:50PM »

no, you tune it to the low F.  you already have a middle f in first.  no need to tune your trigger to it.  what is a trigger used for?
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 02, 2013, 12:53PM »

Back in the Bad Old Days I was taught to tune the Fs in the staff to tune the attachment.

I suspect that this procedure is still used by some less knowledgeable people today.  It's really not that good an idea.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 02, 2013, 01:50PM »

Not sure what you guys mean by the springs.

I am also not currently taking lessons. My teacher did play my horn at least briefly to give it the o.k. when I did. I will take lessons again at some point, but currently I don't have the budget for it. Right now I play well enough to be part of a decent concert band, so I achieved what my original goal was. Not that I don't want to get better, but it's not a huge priority for me to take lessons right now.

Shortening the tuning slide isn't an option as the horn is borrowed.

What was said about a too loose embouchure might be true. I'll look into it when I practice tomorrow.

I have been tuning the trigger to C ( ), so I guess that "solves it" if it's okay to just tune it to low F. But how on earth will I get the low C then (octave under )? It's already at the edge of the damn slide!
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 02, 2013, 01:57PM »

For low C, you'll either have to use false tones (a whole different discussion) or pull the tuning slide to flat E whenever you need it.

And yes, I would tune the attachment to low F. On some horns that means it's all the way in (my 50B, for instance).
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 02, 2013, 02:39PM »

I tune all of my F attachments to low F... That just means that the C will be out a bit... Just have to get used to it.  If you can't get the low F in tune then there is a problem with either too large a mouthpiece, or something is wrong with the horn.
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maglame
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 02, 2013, 03:38PM »

Thanks for the help. I'm still curious what you guys mean by "the springs" though.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 02, 2013, 03:49PM »

Conn bass trombones, at least the older ones before the 110 series, all had springs instead of a felt bumper in the cork barrels.  You could compress the springs to sharpen 1st position.  The 8/88H had them as well.  My King 7B has springs too, but they aren't very long so you can't sharpen 1st position very much.

I was under the impression that the 110/111/112H had springs as well.  Or maybe somebody took yours out.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #19 on: Sep 02, 2013, 04:49PM »

Someone on here said something about putting euphonium springs in place of the felt as a good replacement as the CONN springs may be hard to find. Just cut them down to length. I do not remember what model springs... Could be the Yamaha ones.
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