Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

942054 Posts in 62035 Topics- by 14978 Members - Latest Member: dasrider
Jump to:  
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: turboblow  (Read 4676 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
prototypedenNIS
Shameless

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 9587

View Profile
« on: Nov 07, 2013, 05:16PM »

Hey everyone,

I was on board and a big fan of the Kelly mouthpieces but well... Turboblow?  Anybody tried these?  They're a partnership with "Brand" brand Mouthpieces (a bit confusing...)

http://www.kellymouthpieces.com/turboblow/index.asp
Logged

denNIS
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 42097
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Nov 07, 2013, 05:30PM »

Looks like they have some kind of vanes to set up a swirling motion.

I have no idea whether that would be good or bad.

I don't think anybody ever tried this before...
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
Full Pedal Trombonist
Brass Menagerie

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 2366

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Nov 07, 2013, 05:47PM »

A local bass trombonist made a mouthpiece for his Mirafone BBb contra and the back bore has deep drill marks. Nice and swirly just like the Kelly rifling there ( I got an e-mail about them ). Makes no ill effects ( or is is affects? Pant ). I think the Kelly turboblow looks really cool, though. What about the sizes, though? What is a 4A? And a 10C sounds like an odd size...
Logged

We don't just embrace insanity here. We feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.
prototypedenNIS
Shameless

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 9587

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Nov 07, 2013, 07:08PM »

What about the sizes, though? What is a 4A? And a 10C sounds like an odd size...
"Brand" brand mouthpiece sizes...
These are made in Switzerland, so it's basically a distribution partnership so they're not really Kelly mpcs.
Logged

denNIS
Full Pedal Trombonist
Brass Menagerie

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 2366

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Nov 07, 2013, 07:56PM »

"Brand" brand mouthpiece sizes...
These are made in Switzerland, so it's basically a distribution partnership so they're not really Kelly mpcs.

There is still a 6-1/2AL for the large shank. Maybe that is just one of those universally-good sizes
Logged

We don't just embrace insanity here. We feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.
iffytboner
*
Offline Offline

Location: York, England
Joined: May 9, 2013
Posts: 192

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Nov 08, 2013, 03:15AM »

Maybe their sizes use the Dennis Wick system? Wick make a 10CS (med bore - aimed at high lead or alto) and a variety of 4's in various bore sizes and cup / backbore types
Logged

I used to be good..... before having 25 years off
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 1364

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Nov 08, 2013, 04:32AM »

Plug a practice mute into your horn and rapidly go from the F in the staff in 6th position to the same note in 1st position.

Note how there is a distinct "whoosh" and"pop" and there is vaccuum and compression ( and expansion) of the air column as the horn expands in size and then decreases in size.

Repeat the same experiment in any position.
Play a passage you are familiar with from memory-- Rochut works well-- and listen and feel for the AUDIBLE compression and expansion of the pressure within the horn.

Playing THROUGH this mess is what makes the use of a practice mute, in moderation, good for you-- you can't do it unless everything is going well and you're doing things correctly. It exposes your weakness and gives you enough bio-feedback to improve without really knowing why.
( well, now you do know why.)

Now, consider how little effect a bit of "rifling" on the interior of the mouthpiece will have-- COMPARED to the absolutely wild and extreme forces going on inside a horn that is changing shape as quickly as you can change positions with the hand slide. ( As demonstrated with the aid of a practice mute)

Add to that mess the change in feel as you go from straight horn to horn with one valve, or two valves.

****

The only way that the advancement in mouthpieces will improve anything is if the rifling marks in the interior of the mouthpiece are combined with some sort of lube to increase the effect.

SNAKE OIL. SNAKE OIL will be needed to increase the effect.


Its a beautiful fraud.
Logged
jmtheob
Doing my best

*
Offline Offline

Location: New York City
Joined: Nov 10, 2009
Posts: 450

View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: Nov 08, 2013, 04:33AM »

I'll be damned if I pay that much for a plastic mouthpiece, turbo or not!
Logged

Jim Theobald
Olds Custom P24G7
Bach Stradivarius 50B3
G&W Karif.
Bass trombonist
Manhattan Wind Ensemble
NY Jazz Workshop Big Band
NY Jazz Academy Big Band
Queer Urban Orchestra
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 1364

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Nov 08, 2013, 01:50PM »

Its not even plastic. Its LEXAN. The same stuff that a gazillion water bottles are made out of.

Now, if you can buy a water bottle-- with the attached screw off top and spout-- for $5 bucks at Walmart, that includes the price of shippping that water bottle from China, and the mark-up to make a profit.

My guess that the Lexan water bottle that retails for $5 might contain 5 cents worth of bulk lexan.

So, in a mouthpiece, how much of the money is actually being spent on the physical product? 5 cents out of $100???

Kelly did ZERO R&D. Some engineer had to come up with the molds to extrude the lexan into, but one thats done ......bingo----they're squeezing out mouthpieces with as much tech advancement in them as was put into a lexan water bottle from Walmart.

Ditto for the NEW AND IMPROVED models.
Logged
sanfranboner

*
Offline Offline

Location: SF Bay area, CA
Joined: Jan 28, 2007
Posts: 2423

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Nov 08, 2013, 01:59PM »

I don't think anybody ever tried this before...

These have been around for a while:

http://truevee.com/mouthpieces.asp

Also this -> http://www.exbrass.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=96&Itemid=106&lang=en_gb

I agree with Kevin regarding the snake oil aspect of this.
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 42097
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Nov 08, 2013, 02:19PM »

Kevin, when did Lexan (a polycarbonate) stop being a plastic?  As far as I know it's still considered a plastic just like epoxy, polyester, and celluloid.

As to the cost, the big cost for this has to be amortizing a very complex mold.  You need to have the insert with the rifling grooves, then at least two and possibly three components to mold the sides and rim and another to mold the cup.

True, the Lexan material may only be a dollar or two.  But you have to heat it to melt, mold it, and then you have the fallout when it doesn't properly fill the first time.

I still agree that their price is exorbitant even with these factors, but the price is often not based on costs but instead what the market will bear.

I'd be interested in what people think about it.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 1364

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Nov 08, 2013, 03:05PM »

Bruce, I was just kidding about it not being a plastic. These things could be made from recycled milk jugs for all I care.

As for the "complex mold"???-- who is to say they didn't just get an intern engineer to cobble something together. " Here, kid. Try this and see what you come up with? And get me a coffee while you're at it."

Complex????????? The guts and moving parts on a toy water pistol have more design and more complexity to them. This is, in short -- A FUNNEL !!!!! Nothing more. Sure, its a funnel of a "certain size" but its a plastic funnel.

And, to be honest, if it were to work, wouldn't a nut and genius like Reynold Schilke have done it years ago? Or Vincent Bach??? Or any of the dozens of qualified engineers who also played brass in the past century?

I had a loonie hunter brother-in-law in my family a few years ago. There a likely MILLIONS of americans with the know-how to make their own bullets in their kitchens. Heat.Mold.Fill. etc. etc.
In your kitchen.

This is just plastic for water bottles. Not as hard as heating lead on the stove.
Logged
Full Pedal Trombonist
Brass Menagerie

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 2366

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Nov 08, 2013, 06:40PM »

I actually thought about making a mold from one of my mouthpieces ( my favorite 6-1/2AL ) and casting some plastic copies.

Does anyone know of a deal which has these in stock yet?
Logged

We don't just embrace insanity here. We feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.
donn
*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle
Joined: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 426

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Nov 08, 2013, 11:39PM »

And, to be honest, if it were to work, wouldn't a nut and genius like Reynold Schilke have done it years ago? Or Vincent Bach??? Or any of the dozens of qualified engineers who also played brass in the past century?

For people who want to buy mouthpieces for the cost of the raw material?
Logged
sanfranboner

*
Offline Offline

Location: SF Bay area, CA
Joined: Jan 28, 2007
Posts: 2423

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Nov 09, 2013, 12:07AM »

Here's some copy form the website of the designer/collaborator:

"Inspired by trompeters, supported by instrument makers, developed by experts, tested by professionals and brought to market by resellers. This is in brief the story of the “Brand Mundstücke“.

As a former sales director in a plastics engineering company and as enthusiastic trumpeter/trumpet player, I was inspired by my hobby and have had the idea that professionally developed mouthpieces made of plastic are accepted on the market.

No sooner said than done! look forward to test the new “Mundstücke” with me….

I like it! Michu Brand"

According to his website you can get a plastic copy of any mouthpiece you like in four weeks time, Full Pedal.  http://www.mundstuecke.ch/en/
Logged
Full Pedal Trombonist
Brass Menagerie

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 2366

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Nov 09, 2013, 11:13AM »

Here's some copy form the website of the designer/collaborator:

"Inspired by trompeters, supported by instrument makers, developed by experts, tested by professionals and brought to market by resellers. This is in brief the story of the “Brand Mundstücke“.

As a former sales director in a plastics engineering company and as enthusiastic trumpeter/trumpet player, I was inspired by my hobby and have had the idea that professionally developed mouthpieces made of plastic are accepted on the market.

No sooner said than done! look forward to test the new “Mundstücke” with me….

I like it! Michu Brand"

According to his website you can get a plastic copy of any mouthpiece you like in four weeks time, Full Pedal.  http://www.mundstuecke.ch/en/

Kinda takes the fun out of playing with stuff at home, but will probably give a better result Good!
Logged

We don't just embrace insanity here. We feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.
ssherwick

*
Offline Offline

Location: Minnetonka, Minnesota
Joined: Sep 30, 2006
Posts: 896

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Nov 11, 2013, 08:04AM »

Its not even plastic. Its LEXAN. The same stuff that a gazillion water bottles are made out of.

OK,

It's obvious you're not a materials engineer. (Disclaimer, neither am I but I work in the industry decorating water bottles and the like, follow link for more information: http://www.accraply.com/trine ) Lexan is pretty nuch a miracle product in the plastics industry, It's actual name is PolyCarbonate. Lexan is a brand name owned by the old GE plastics group.

Water bottles are made from a few possible plastics and some layered materials. High density Polyethelyne, Low Density Polyethelyne and Polypropolyne are the most common. Water bottles can also be layered to create barrier layers and the like.

Polycarbonate (Lexan) is used to create barrier guarding in machinery for human protection and stopping the occasional bird from flying through the windshield of airplane cockpits. It's very tough and has a tendency to flow rather than break under impact. It's also around 8 to 10 times the cost per pound over the crap plastic used in water bottles.

Lexan also requires very little after molding deburring and is a heck of a lot more dimensionally stable as far as expansion and contraction over other traditionally molded plastics such as acrylics.
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 42097
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Nov 11, 2013, 08:18AM »

One thing to add to SSherwick's comments (and Kevin has already admitted that Lexan is  a plastic).

There were water bottles made from polyester (polyethylene terephthalate for those who care).  There is a monomer often left behind after PET reaction that leaches from the water bottle into the stuff contained within.  This created a big stink about PET bottles in the beverage industry.

I'm not familiar enough with the melt characteristics of PC to know for sure, but if it tends to melt (deform) on impact and because it's melt molded I'd be leery of putting one of these in a dishwasher for cleaning.  Note that this has nothing to do with the benefits or not of the rifling grooves (which I agree goes with the Pocket Rocket, the AAIR insert, and other such "improvements".
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
Bruce the budgie

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Oct 1, 2013
Posts: 34
"A burp is not a grace note."


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Nov 11, 2013, 08:30AM »

Lexan also requires very little after molding deburring ...

... and that is a good thing, in that cutting or machining Lexan tends to leave small cracks in its wake. These cracks can serve as stress risers, leading to bigger fractures. (In critical applications, the remedy is vapor-phase annealing, where the piece is kept in a solvent vapor long enough to fuse the cracks and soften the surface enough to relieve residual stress. Guess what it does to the cost...)

P.S. In the sixties, I used a plastic cornet mouthpiece for marching in midwestern US football weather. It had a shallower cup than the metal one, which did good things for the upper end of my range. I always assumed it was Lucite, but it's long gone now.
Logged
Doug Elliott
Lord of the Rims

*
*
Online Online

Location: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: Mar 12, 2005
Posts: 4581

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Nov 11, 2013, 09:21AM »

...  cutting or machining Lexan tends to leave small cracks in its wake. These cracks can serve as stress risers, leading to bigger fractures. (In critical applications, the remedy is vapor-phase annealing, where the piece is kept in a solvent vapor long enough to fuse the cracks and soften the surface enough to relieve residual stress. Guess what it does to the cost...)

I believe you're thinking or acrylic and other plastics, not Lexan.  That definitely happens with acrylic, but I haven't seen any evidence of it in Lexan, which I machine regularly.
Logged

www.DougElliottMouthpieces.com
XT LexanN104,C+,D2, Williams 6, K&H Slokar alto, K&H Slokar Solo .547 open wrap
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: