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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, slide advantage) Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
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griffinben

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« on: Nov 19, 2013, 07:33AM »

Detailed in another thread someone mentioned that we at Shires offer products and specifications that are not detailed on our website, especially instruments/components that some of our artists play.  We have the capability for offering a simply dizzying array of options and detailing every single on on the website would be both incredibly time consuming for us and potentially paralyzing for the customer!  Moreover, we find that most of our customers find the greatest success with a very small percentage of the options available.

But I know the nerd in all of us wants to explore, so I'm creating this thread for your questions. I'm sure there are certain things I cannot detail, but I can certainly answer most general questions, especially about specifications that might not be detailed elsewhere.

So ask away!  I will do my best to fill you in.

-Ben
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cozzagiorgi
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« Reply #1 on: Nov 19, 2013, 08:27AM »

Great!

2 Simple questions: Is the Shires Master series already available in Switzerland?
Will there be a bass version? If so, when?

Thanks for the time you put in this forum!
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griffinben

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« Reply #2 on: Nov 19, 2013, 08:35AM »

Great!

2 Simple questions: Is the Shires Master series already available in Switzerland?
Will there be a bass version? If so, when?

Thanks for the time you put in this forum!

Hello!

Currently there are no plans for a bass trombone version of the Master Series.  However if there was enough interest shown we would certainly give it serious consideration.

We have not currently shipped any orders to Switzerland; this is a new product and sometimes it takes a little while.  We are hopeful it will find its way there shortly.

Thank You,
Ben
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cozzagiorgi
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 19, 2013, 08:52AM »

0k, is me myself and l enough interest? ;-)

How does this stuff work: Does the dealer order and stock them or do the dealers only order when a customer wants them? Generally speaking.
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Matt K

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« Reply #4 on: Nov 19, 2013, 09:13AM »

Okay, so a few of the ones I was curious about... Jim Nova plays a TW47L, is that different than a LW? His bell is 5GLW+, is that slightly heavier than a 5GM? (This is what appears on the "custom" page, but on the artist page it's something different). There it lists his horn (.547) as TII 7YM A5. What is the A5? Similarly Angel Subero plays something listed as an "A1" and Johathan Whitaker an "A4", is that a similar designation?

Greg Spiridopoulos is listed as playing a TII 7GTS8 bell.  What does that "T" stand for? Otherwise it's a Type II receiver with a type 7 bell in gold, silver plated 8" flare, right?  I thought "Gold tuning slide" but that is listed on the site as TG.

Bill Zehfuss plays a 5YTB. A type 5 yellow bell... TB?

Some more general questions:
Are 9" bells setup for tenors or basses?

How is the production (edit) of the case coming along for Ralph Sauer screwbell horns?

I've seen some 3 bells, are 3 bells no longer offered, were they prototype bells?

What is the distinction between a T7 treatment and a lighter bell. Is it that just the flare is thinner?

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What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
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griffinben

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« Reply #5 on: Nov 19, 2013, 09:19AM »

0k, is me myself and l enough interest? ;-)

How does this stuff work: Does the dealer order and stock them or do the dealers only order when a customer wants them? Generally speaking.

Every dealer makes their own decisions on what stock and what they wish to order.  In this case, Master Series trombones are only available through dealers, so you would need to speak to your swiss Shires dealer regarding that.

Ben
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gbedinger
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 19, 2013, 09:20AM »

Okay, so a few of the ones I was curious about... Jim Nova plays a TW47L, is that different than a LW? His bell is 5GLW+, is that slightly heavier than a 5GM? (This is what appears on the "custom" page, but on the artist page it's something different). There it lists his horn (.547) as TII 7YM A5. What is the A5? Similarly Angel Subero plays something listed as an "A1" and Johathan Whitaker an "A4", is that a similar designation?

Greg Spiridopoulos is listed as playing a TII 7GTS8 bell.  What does that "T" stand for? Otherwise it's a Type II receiver with a type 7 bell in gold, silver plated 8" flare, right?  I thought "Gold tuning slide" but that is listed on the site as TG.

Bill Zehfuss plays a 5YTB. A type 5 yellow bell... TB?

Some more general questions:
Are 9" bells setup for tenors or basses?

How is the production (edit) of the case coming along for Ralph Sauer screwbell horns?

I've seen some 3 bells, are 3 bells no longer offered, were they prototype bells?

What is the distinction between a T7 treatment and a lighter bell. Is it that just the flare is thinner?

Ben, methinks you opened up a can of worms.

Still, we here in the forum appreciate your clarification on these matters.

George
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Matt K

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« Reply #7 on: Nov 19, 2013, 09:31AM »

Ben, methinks you opened up a can of worms.

Still, we here in the forum appreciate your clarification on these matters.

George

If I ever get a title, I outta change it to "Opener of the can of worms"
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What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
griffinben

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« Reply #8 on: Nov 19, 2013, 11:03AM »

Okay, so a few of the ones I was curious about... Jim Nova plays a TW47L, is that different than a LW? His bell is 5GLW+, is that slightly heavier than a 5GM? (This is what appears on the "custom" page, but on the artist page it's something different). There it lists his horn (.547) as TII 7YM A5. What is the A5? Similarly Angel Subero plays something listed as an "A1" and Johathan Whitaker an "A4", is that a similar designation?

Greg Spiridopoulos is listed as playing a TII 7GTS8 bell.  What does that "T" stand for? Otherwise it's a Type II receiver with a type 7 bell in gold, silver plated 8" flare, right?  I thought "Gold tuning slide" but that is listed on the site as TG.

Bill Zehfuss plays a 5YTB. A type 5 yellow bell... TB?

Some more general questions:
Are 9" bells setup for tenors or basses?

How is the production (edit) of the case coming along for Ralph Sauer screwbell horns?

I've seen some 3 bells, are 3 bells no longer offered, were they prototype bells?

What is the distinction between a T7 treatment and a lighter bell. Is it that just the flare is thinner?



OK, this is a lot!

In the order asked...

- TW47L: the L stands for long. LW is the designation for lightweight.  The TW47 is available in a longer length, more similar to a Bach 42 slide.  This has a slightly different feel and adds stability for some people.  If it were a lightweight and long slide, the designation would TW47LWL

- The 5GLW +: the plus stands for a taper in between TI and TII.  We would do this when we first started making type 5 bells and for players that wanted a bit wider taper to the throat.  This was done by hand and each bell that is "+" is slightly unique.  For the record, we no longer make type 5 bells in the TI taper, for production reasons.  

- A5, A1, A4: These are varying annealing treatments.  Annealing our bells can add some color but the bells often loose some stability, so they usually only work for strong players with strong personalities.  

- "T" on a bell designation has to do with how we distribute weight in the bell.  The immediately following by a number and/or letter defines what the modification is.  We prefer to keep the specific details of these modifications in house.

There is no special designation for silver plate

bell size demarcations come at the very end of the bell description, usually with a space prior to the number

- 5YTB: 5Y is a type 5 bell in yellow brass, TB is as above.

- One can custom order a 9" bell for either tenor or bass.  I have a 9" bell for my bass trombone.

- We continue to search for an adequate case for the Ralph Sauer instrument.  We have had several promising leads but have not chosen one yet.  As one might imagine, it is hard to find a manufacturer/s to dedicate time to such a niche item at an affordable cost.  If you are interested in a flat case contact us directly and we can make some recommendations.

- The type 3 bell is a two piece bell where the flare is seamed, like the bell stem.  We found that we got much of the same results in playability and color from our type 7 bells with considerably less labor, so we discontinued the type 3.

- As stated above, T7 is one of the ways we treat bells to distribute weight.  It is a unique technique and so has its own designation.

I hope that helps.

Best,
Ben
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JimR

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« Reply #9 on: Nov 19, 2013, 11:27AM »

Ben
Are the F-attachments for tenor available in a closed configuration vs. an open setup for tighter spaces.  If so, is the cost the same?

Thanks
Jim
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Matt K

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« Reply #10 on: Nov 19, 2013, 11:35AM »

Ben
Are the F-attachments for tenor available in a closed configuration vs. an open setup for tighter spaces.  If so, is the cost the same?

Thanks
Jim


If you use a Thayer, check out the Morandini wrap.  AFAIK, the Israeli symphony hall has the trombones butted right up against a wall, so he had to have his thayer wrapped so that it didn't stick out beyond the main tuning slide.
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What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
droffilcal

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« Reply #11 on: Nov 19, 2013, 12:28PM »

Ben, have there been any significant builds or experiments with a small tenor with f-attachment ?  Something like a 508 w/ F or a 500/508 (or 500/525) dual bore w/ F ?

If so, what have been the results ? Methinks perhaps you have been experimenting along those lines ? What's the scoop ?
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griffinben

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« Reply #12 on: Nov 19, 2013, 12:30PM »

Ben
Are the F-attachments for tenor available in a closed configuration vs. an open setup for tighter spaces.  If so, is the cost the same?

Thanks
Jim


All but our Morandini trombone come with one kind of valve wrap which is mostly what we think of as an open valve wrap.

If you use a Thayer, check out the Morandini wrap.  AFAIK, the Israeli symphony hall has the trombones butted right up against a wall, so he had to have his thayer wrapped so that it didn't stick out beyond the main tuning slide.

The Morandini wrap is different, but doesn't not work with everyone's hand type.  The knuckle that wraps over the hand can make contact, which can be uncomfortable.  I recommend trying before you buy.  We can make a Morandini trombone with a standard, open valve wrap by request.

Ben
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griffinben

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« Reply #13 on: Nov 19, 2013, 12:43PM »

Ben, have there been any significant builds or experiments with a small tenor with f-attachment ?  Something like a 508 w/ F or a 500/508 (or 500/525) dual bore w/ F ?

If so, what have been the results ? Methinks perhaps you have been experimenting along those lines ? What's the scoop ?

This is a subject very near and dear to my heart....

We have built a few custom order small bores with F attachment and people have been pleased with the results.  It differs from our typical small bores in that the bell is removable.  Like all our small bore trombones, the slides are interchangeable, so it can be used with everything from a .485 bore all the way up to a .508 bore.  After that you move into medium/large bore territory.

My feeling having played it with many bells is that it is easily better than any other small bore offering with F attachment.  Period.  I've test driven the one we have in the shop many times on gigs and it performs great once set up with the proper bell, leadpipe, and tuning slide for the style you want to play. 

It still has the effects of adding weight to a small, light horn (i.e. a different response, mainly) that effect any horn with a trigger.  I would recommend it to anyone wanting the best small bore with F attachment they could get their hands on, but they should not expect it to be the same as a straight tenor trombone.  We do make a straight neckpipe that can go with this horn too and it plays like our other small bore offerings (i.e. great), although the same tuning slide & leadpipe feel pretty different between the valved and straight horns.

The biggest drawback seems to be the cost; it is the same price as a large bore with a rotary valve (which stands to reason).  The price seems to be the main deterrent to why there haven't been very many of these.  One would seem to need a real demand for this instrument for it to achieve greater popularity. 

But it is a great horn with real potential int he right hands.  If more happens with it I will be sure to let you (all of you!)know.

-Ben

 
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Matt K

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« Reply #14 on: Nov 19, 2013, 12:59PM »

FWIW, they do make a .508/.525 slide, I have one.  It's a T0825GLW that I have with a Tru-bore rotor, TGS tuning slide, and a Bach 36 bell.  If I can get the bread for it, I'd love to get up there to try some more bells out with it, although it's hands down the best set of components I've played to date.  I highly recommend the 0825 if you're looking for something small with an F attachment.  I prefer the F attachment to the straight horn right now, although I've been experimenting with the straight pipe, which is starting to grow on me.
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What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
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« Reply #15 on: Nov 19, 2013, 01:09PM »

What is the difference in length between a normal shires slide and the L (equal to Bach length?) ? Would the standard shires slide have much different slide positions than a 42? Does the tuning slide need to be shortened with the longer slide?
Also curious, as I've wanted to try a shires slide on my bach/greenhoe, could you describe the difference in feel with the L slide? (I know it's subjective...)
Thanks!

- TW47L: the L stands for long. LW is the designation for lightweight.  The TW47 is available in a longer length, more similar to a Bach 42 slide.  This has a slightly different feel and adds stability for some people.  If it were a lightweight and long slide, the designation would TW47LWL
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« Reply #16 on: Nov 19, 2013, 01:16PM »

Do you make wraps that are similar to the Morandini wrap for Rotor valves?
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Matt K

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« Reply #17 on: Nov 19, 2013, 01:28PM »

What is the difference in length between a normal shires slide and the L (equal to Bach length?) ? Would the standard shires slide have much different slide positions than a 42? Does the tuning slide need to be shortened with the longer slide?
Also curious, as I've wanted to try a shires slide on my bach/greenhoe, could you describe the difference in feel with the L slide? (I know it's subjective...)
Thanks!


I know I can't speak from experience trying the "L" designation, but I have used a standard Shires slide on a Bach 42bell/bach 42 tuning slide/Shires rotor, which worked really well. It does make the positions ever so slightly closer together, but the sound has so much more life and ease of playing.  The nickel crook and leadpipe make a HUGE difference, although there are other differences between a Bach and a Shires slide.

It should be noted that I prefer to play the instrument with a slightly lowered first position so I can tune 1st position notes in chords though, and give myself a little slide vibrato for jazz. The regular slide on a Bach section lets you leave the tuning slide pretty much were it would be on a normal horn if you do that. Makes the higher overtones closer together, so slightly harder to hit for me though. 


EDIT: Also, sorry I've been posting in this thread so much.  Perhaps there is a such thing as too much coffee.  But definitely not a such thing as too much zeal for Shires stuff. So it has to be the coffee.
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What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
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« Reply #18 on: Nov 19, 2013, 01:43PM »

I've always wondered what valve type is the most popular?  Rotor, axial, or Trubore?  And does the answer differ on tenor vs. bass?  It wouldn't be the new dual bore valve because they are so new, but wow, that is a nice valve.
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griffinben

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« Reply #19 on: Nov 19, 2013, 02:00PM »

What is the difference in length between a normal shires slide and the L (equal to Bach length?) ? Would the standard shires slide have much different slide positions than a 42? Does the tuning slide need to be shortened with the longer slide?
Also curious, as I've wanted to try a shires slide on my bach/greenhoe, could you describe the difference in feel with the L slide? (I know it's subjective...)
Thanks!


The difference in length is pretty slight but length brings big differences in feel.  Briefly, the longer length gives a little more security to the slotting.  For some people this is too much, for others just right.  Generally people that come from Bach trombones like this slide, especially if the rest of the horn is balanced like a Bach (i.e. TII bell, TB style slide, TX tuning slide).

Our long slide length should be similar enough with your Greenhoe Bach that intonation should be pretty similar.  many people have purchased our slides for replacements with their Bach bells.  The real question is the bell/slide receiver.  All things being equal, our slides will fit on a 42 bell with no modification necessary.  I do not know about Greenhoe connectors.

I hope this helps.

Ben
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