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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, slide advantage) Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
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Gabe Langfur

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« Reply #1120 on: Mar 18, 2017, 06:43AM »

If it helps narrow it down, it apparently used to belong to Matthew Guilford.

In that case, I know what it is. Matt used to play a Monette mouthpiece, which would bottom out in the standard flaring of the receiver at the time. That spec has changed since then and I think is no longer necessary, but the M indicates that the mouthpiece will sit a little less deep in the pipe.
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« Reply #1121 on: Mar 18, 2017, 10:04AM »

Ben-

I need to replace the bumpers on my axial valve.  It's an older one, got it around the year 2000.  Can you point me in the right direction to obtaining a few.

Thanks.
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Matt K

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« Reply #1122 on: Mar 18, 2017, 11:29AM »

In that case, I know what it is. Matt used to play a Monette mouthpiece, which would bottom out in the standard flaring of the receiver at the time. That spec has changed since then and I think is no longer necessary, but the M indicates that the mouthpiece will sit a little less deep in the pipe.

Excellent! I'd forgotten about that, it makes perfect sense.
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griffinben

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« Reply #1123 on: Mar 20, 2017, 06:48AM »

In that case, I know what it is. Matt used to play a Monette mouthpiece, which would bottom out in the standard flaring of the receiver at the time. That spec has changed since then and I think is no longer necessary, but the M indicates that the mouthpiece will sit a little less deep in the pipe.

Thanks, Gabe!
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griffinben

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« Reply #1124 on: Mar 20, 2017, 06:49AM »

Ben-

I need to replace the bumpers on my axial valve.  It's an older one, got it around the year 2000.  Can you point me in the right direction to obtaining a few.

Thanks.

If still in NJ I would contact your local Shires dealer, which is Dillon Music.  They should be able to help you.

Best,
Ben
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cigmar

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« Reply #1125 on: Mar 20, 2017, 07:39AM »

If still in NJ I would contact your local Shires dealer, which is Dillon Music.  They should be able to help you.

Best,
Ben

Will do.  Thanks Ben.

Is this a possible DIY project or should I leave it to Dillon's techs?
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TNTBONE
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« Reply #1126 on: Mar 20, 2017, 10:15AM »

Ben, my apologies if this has been covered already, but why do you prefer the dual bore valve on your Chicago model over the other Shires offerings?? Thanks, Greg
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griffinben

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« Reply #1127 on: Mar 20, 2017, 11:40AM »

Will do.  Thanks Ben.

Is this a possible DIY project or should I leave it to Dillon's techs?

This depends on your comfort level.  The bumpers are what control the port alignment and need to be trimmed so that the valve aligns properly.  In the case of an axial, this is done by looking down the neckpipe (tuning slide side) with a flashlight to see the ports and trimming the bumpers accordingly.  There's definitely a feel to this; if not familiar it can take along time and/or you may go through a bunch of bumpers before you get it right.  I'll leave it to you if you feel comfortable or not with it.

There's a possibility that they could do this for you while you wait at the shop.  I'd contact Dillon and ask.

Ben
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griffinben

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« Reply #1128 on: Mar 20, 2017, 11:49AM »

Ben, my apologies if this has been covered already, but why do you prefer the dual bore valve on your Chicago model over the other Shires offerings?? Thanks, Greg

I play a dual bore valve on my personal set up (Chicago with dual bore valve) and a 1.5 leadpipe.  I wanted my everyday large bore set up to be light, crisp, colorful, and quick responding.   I personally like the focus and response it brings to the horn, it feels very lithe, singing and soloistic to me.  The axial feels broader in scope to me and doesn't match well to what I use a large bore tenor for.  (FWIW, I am very interested in getting an all yellow brass set up to complement it, i.e. Vintage New York).

I need to stress that this choice reflects my personal opinion and needs, with no official byline attached to the company through it.  I try to match each horn to the individual playing it and their wants and needs, which can be different than my own.

I hope that helps. 
Ben
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TNTBONE
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« Reply #1129 on: Mar 20, 2017, 11:58AM »

Very helpful Ben.. Thank you, Greg
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SilverBone
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« Reply #1130 on: Mar 20, 2017, 10:41PM »

Something I've been wondering about for a while:

Shires bell sections have fittings that screw onto the valve section.  My Thayer valve section also has some screw fittings that attach to the upper loop of the valve section (smaller than the bell fittings).

What is the purpose of the smaller fittings?  If you disconnect them, you can't disassemble anything.
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« Reply #1131 on: Mar 21, 2017, 07:44AM »

If that brace was solid then you could not disassemble the Thayer valve section... Try taking it apart without lossening that.
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« Reply #1132 on: Mar 21, 2017, 07:47AM »

Something I've been wondering about for a while:

Shires bell sections have fittings that screw onto the valve section.  My Thayer valve section also has some screw fittings that attach to the upper loop of the valve section (smaller than the bell fittings).

What is the purpose of the smaller fittings?  If you disconnect them, you can't disassemble anything.


Sounds like perhaps you haven't removed the core from the valve before? You have to loosen those connections, then unscrew the ring around the valve, then it all comes apart. (You'd also need to disconnect the lever linkage, too)
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griffinben

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« Reply #1133 on: Mar 21, 2017, 08:34AM »

Something I've been wondering about for a while:

Shires bell sections have fittings that screw onto the valve section.  My Thayer valve section also has some screw fittings that attach to the upper loop of the valve section (smaller than the bell fittings).

What is the purpose of the smaller fittings?  If you disconnect them, you can't disassemble anything.


As Zachary (HouBassTrombone) mentioned, this is so the Axial flow valve can be taken apart for service.  The neckpipe (with accompanying tuning slide receiver and bell brace, with angle brace to upper loop of F valve tubing) is soldered onto the bearing plate. 

Sounds like perhaps you haven't removed the core from the valve before? You have to loosen those connections, then unscrew the ring around the valve, then it all comes apart. (You'd also need to disconnect the lever linkage, too)

Unless you are a professional tech we STRONGLY advise NOT taking apart our axial flow valves.  The fit of our valves is much more precise than other and/or earlier valves that needed regular attention to function.  Differences of 0.0001" can make a difference in how this valve operates.  Taking apart the valve instantly voids the warranty.  We've had to give bad news to too many well intentioned people that took their valves apart, re-assembled them and found that the action was worse or not functioning at all.  If one insists on disassembling their valve we cannot warranty the part.

The best way to keep your valve working properly is OIL.  This is true of all of our valves, but particularly so axial flow valves.  The core (rotor oil), the spindle (bearing and linkage oil), and the miniball joints (ball joint grease or similar heavy grease) all need regular attention to keep from wearing out and to flush out moisture (to prevent anything organic reacting or growing in there).  As I often say: Oil is cheap, valves are expensive. 

I hope this helps.
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« Reply #1134 on: Mar 21, 2017, 12:01PM »

Hi Ben - I thought the recommendation was just not to remove the stop arm screw on the spindle to remove the back plate?
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« Reply #1135 on: Mar 25, 2017, 08:56AM »

I have a question about gooseneck bore/venturi. I currently use a .525 bore Shires slide with a gooseneck which is the same gooseneck as I would be using for a .547 bore Shires slide. One thing that has often been noted about the bach 42 is that it is a combination of parts from other bach models. Particularly the slide crook of the 50, and the gooseneck, tuning slide, and bell flare of the 36 (with the flare being spun to 8 1/2 instead of 8 inches). Many have said that the 36 neck makes the large bore horn feel stuffy. Bach even makes a more open version of the 42 neck now. So I was wondering how the gooseneck might play into the interchangeability of Shires parts?

I am assuming that Shires has only two size of gooseneck for tenor trombone. The size for large and medium bore and the size for small bore. I have often wondered about the shires .508-.525 dual bore slide and I was in part wondering about goose neck dimensions in terms of this slide. In all honesty I am probably at least a year of from being able to buy any new horns, but I've wondered about a .508-.525 slide horn with an 8 or even 8 1/2 inch bell and possibly an f-attachment. I am wondering what the difference would be in matching this slide to the small bore tenon/gooseneck/tuning slide/bell flares. (assuming 8 inch flare) vs the large/medium bore tenon/gooseneck/tuning slide/bell flares? I would be curious both in terms of anticipated effect, and if possible just in terms of tubing diameter numbers, or some idea of the size differences if not specific numbers.
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« Reply #1136 on: Mar 25, 2017, 01:30PM »

Hope you don't mind a brief interjection Ben, but I might be able to give an endorsement here since I owned everything spoken of.  

I owned a Shires T0825GLW slide that I purchased used from Dillon.  For one reason or another, it had a small bore Shires receiver on it and mated with my small bore Bach horns as well as a friends 36.  With the small receiver in my horn, it played rather flat on the Bach bells.  I'm sure there was something about the bell dimensions that made it the case. It was a lot less flat on the 36 I tried it with than the Bach 6 bell that I had.

I later had it converted to the normal, large bore tenon.  I had both a straight gooseneck, a straight Bach 42 bell section, a Bach 42G bell (setup for Shires), a Shires 2RVET7 bell, a Bach 36 bell (Setup for Shires), and a 2RM8 bell throughout various times as well as with a traditional rotor, straight neckpipe, and tru-bore rotor.  

The 508/525 slide is really quite versatile, and this slide worked the best with the Shires large bore bell sections, for me.  When I paired it with the Bach bells (setup for Shires), it was still a pretty great horn but wasn't as easy to color as I like as compared to the Shires bells.  When I put it on a Bach 42 bell section, I noticed the same effect but more exaggerated. So I think the bell was part of the equation, but so was the smaller neckpipe and probably the tuning slide and its results on the overtone series.

Another thing: At the time, I found that I actually preferred the Tru-bore compared to the neckpipe regardless of the style of playing I was doing. Gave just a little extra depth to the sound and didn't negatively influence my playing either way. Bear in mind that I'm used to playing large bores and basses, so that can obviously be qualified.

In short though: I would still very likely own it if I weren't an amateur at the moment.  I picked up a used small bore Shires and between it and my 547 horn... I just wasn't using my 508/525 slide. THere are definitely times that I've used one or the other that I thought I would prefer the 508/525 slide I had, but they are more rare than the other way around.  The one thing that I think I would do differently if I were to order a new one is order one that didn't have gold brass tubes. I think either a full nickel or yellow brass slide would have been a better fit for the commercial stuff I did with it.
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« Reply #1137 on: Mar 27, 2017, 06:40AM »

I have a question about gooseneck bore/venturi. I currently use a .525 bore Shires slide with a gooseneck which is the same gooseneck as I would be using for a .547 bore Shires slide. One thing that has often been noted about the bach 42 is that it is a combination of parts from other bach models. Particularly the slide crook of the 50, and the gooseneck, tuning slide, and bell flare of the 36 (with the flare being spun to 8 1/2 instead of 8 inches). Many have said that the 36 neck makes the large bore horn feel stuffy. Bach even makes a more open version of the 42 neck now. So I was wondering how the gooseneck might play into the interchangeability of Shires parts?

I am assuming that Shires has only two size of gooseneck for tenor trombone. The size for large and medium bore and the size for small bore. I have often wondered about the shires .508-.525 dual bore slide and I was in part wondering about goose neck dimensions in terms of this slide. In all honesty I am probably at least a year of from being able to buy any new horns, but I've wondered about a .508-.525 slide horn with an 8 or even 8 1/2 inch bell and possibly an f-attachment. I am wondering what the difference would be in matching this slide to the small bore tenon/gooseneck/tuning slide/bell flares. (assuming 8 inch flare) vs the large/medium bore tenon/gooseneck/tuning slide/bell flares? I would be curious both in terms of anticipated effect, and if possible just in terms of tubing diameter numbers, or some idea of the size differences if not specific numbers.

One of the big surprises when I started working here and really learning about brass design is that the instruments often have a lot of steps, sometimes drastic, and that these things actually help stabilize the horn and/or give it certain characteristics.  It's really quite impossible to design a trombone without a step up and step down, because of the handslide.  We've talked about Vincent Bach's designs quite a bit and Steve is is pretty sure that those steps are intentional from a design standpoint, not an economic one, as they mirror some of the characteristic steps found in vintage Bach trumpets.

All of which is to say, unless you are willing to go down a deep rabbit hole and spend soem $, take the instrument as a collection of parts, not specific measurements.  We've already spent a lot of that money so that you don't have to.  I won;t claim that our findings and decisions will be exactly in line with your aesthetic wants, but from an experimental standpoint we understand the cost (both financial and mental).

We use the same neckpipe and valves for all large and medium bore applications.  We can generally tailor the feel to fit a "medium bore" style feel through the handslide, tuning slide and leapipes (steps, again).  We've found great success with this approach for both our large and medium bore offerings with very few complaints except those wanting a more compact sounding/feeling medium bore horn; one that is more like a large small bore, rather than a small medium bore. 

In those instance, our customers usually got with the straight .508 slide and an SY tunign slide. There's not been a need for us to go full on .525 with small bells. We've tried the straight .525 slide with our small bore bells.  The intonation was not worth fighting. The .508 approach is the what we recommend if you are looking for a more compact medium bore design based on small bores, like the one found on a King 3B+ or Benge 170.  We can make these horns with a valve too.

The valve makes a huge difference in feel and playibility, regardless of whether you are int he valve register or not. Adding a valve adds weight.  Adding a valve changes resistance (more diffuse in an axial, more focused with a rotor or Tru-Bore).  Matt's comment about the Tru-Bore is not surprising, we have heard from many people that they love the Tru-Bore not just for the valve register, but for the way it slots in the upper register.  This feeling can me emphasized or decreased depending on the slide.

 The T08-25 is an odd beast.  When I was first trying Shires trombones, maybe 15 years ago now, Gabe put together a horn for me that I still remember the specs of: 2YM 8/Tru-Bore/TY/T08-25.  It was the ultimate show horn, incredibly versatile and lithe.  I still have dreams about that horn (one day...one day...).  Our general feedback from the T08-25 slide is that it changes the intonation slots enough that many people do not want to deal with it.  TOO many steps, too large.  Anyone that has played a vintage Conn 32H knows that the intonation is different than most horns.  Not insurmountable, but it's there.  Sometimes that is more than what someone is willing to deal with in a premium horn, or if they are moving between several horns, so most opt for a straight ahead .525.  It's also very versatile, especially when you consider that it can take both large and small shank leadpipes. 

But that is going larger, not smaller.  In terms of playibility, the T08-25 is indeed quicker responding than a straight .525 slide, which a more focused attack and density to the sound.  It requires a different air expansion to fill up.  In the valve range, you need a decent size mouthpiece, at least in cup volume, to get it to approach medium or big tenor sound.  It's not .508 w/valve small, but there's plenty of room for a small shank 5G to fill up.  I would definitely recommend an 8" bell over an 8 1/2" bell, unless you were going for a specific application.
 
I've sold exactly zero T08-25 handslides in my time here.  That slide will work with the neckpipe and valves currently here, but more mainstream parts have done largely the same thing, so we sell more of those.  I've been considering buying one for myself (because what I really need are more options....right).  If I pull the trigger, I'll report back here. 

The long of the short of it: unless you are looking for something very specific, I recommend more conventional routes.  There's usually a reason why that stuff is mainstream: it works!

I hope this helps.
Ben

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« Reply #1138 on: Mar 27, 2017, 06:49AM »

Ben (orn anyone else),

have you tried combining a T00-08 slide with a bigger bell? Let's say 8.5 inch? What was the result?
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« Reply #1139 on: Mar 27, 2017, 07:02AM »

Ben (orn anyone else),

have you tried combining a T00-08 slide with a bigger bell? Let's say 8.5 inch? What was the result?

The T00-08 slide is small bore only and we only go up to 8" on those instruments.  We've not paired it with the larger medium/large bore components as they are not compatible.  (We've haven't done the mod to make this happen for many of the same reasons listed in the immediately previous reply.) 

I've played the T00-08 slide with 8" bell and the result was a quick responding yet full sounding instrument, with a dense core that radiates out slightly larger than what you would expect of a small bore horn.  In general, our 7.75" bells respond more characteristically like 8" bells from other manufacturers, so 8" lets the size of the sound out even further.  An 8 1/2" would likely go even more down that road.  Even if it is possible to spin our small bore bells out that large, I don't think I would recommend it.

Ben
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