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The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformanceMusical Miscellany(Moderators: JP, BGuttman) "Frère Jacques" composer finally identified.
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robcat2075

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« on: Oct 08, 2014, 07:41AM »

And it's a big name. 

Hint: He composed "Les Indes Galantes"

Named: The great composer who wrote Frère Jacques

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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #1 on: Oct 08, 2014, 08:26AM »

That's neat.  It doesn't make me think any more or less of the work.  And Mahler changed it to a minor key :)  Btw, whatever Intellectual Property rules applied, the tune was Public Domain by the time Mahler appropriated it.  In fact, given that there were no Intellectual Property rules at the time it was "Public Domain" at the moment Rameau wrote it down ;-)
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robcat2075

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« Reply #2 on: Oct 08, 2014, 10:50AM »

You know... when i heard that bit in a Mahler symphony for the first time it never occurred to me that it was "Frère Jacques."  Don't know It still doesn't sound like "Frère Jacques" to me.

No, I don't think there will be serious litigation arising from this discovery.

Now, if only we could find the guy that did "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star"...
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 08, 2014, 10:54AM »

It's another old French tune.  Another title for it is "A Vous Direz Je Maman" (something like "Did you call me, Mama").  Mozart wrote a nice set of variations on it but I doubt he would have claimed credit for the tune.

For that matter, Suzuki wrote a couple of nice variations on it that are enshrined in his String methods (I played the viola one).  Suzuki was working long after Mozart died so he's out. ;-)
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #4 on: Oct 08, 2014, 11:07AM »

I can rest easier tonight, knowing this.             :D
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richard314159

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« Reply #5 on: Nov 17, 2014, 06:29AM »

  And Mahler changed it to a minor key :) 

I can't remember where I learnt this, but I understood that in Mahler's day the tune was most commonly played in the minor key (and was associated with the Jewish community) and it is only since then that we have got to know it in a major key.
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WaltTrombone
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 17, 2014, 07:54AM »

All I can say  is that I'd love to get my hands on the guy who wrote Hot Cross Buns.  Yeah, RIGHT.
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Walter Barrett
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timothy42b
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« Reply #7 on: Nov 17, 2014, 08:02AM »

Michael Recorder. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 17, 2014, 02:15PM »

It's another old French tune.  Another title for it is "A Vous Direz Je Maman" (something like "Did you call me, Mama")

More like, "Shall I tell you, Maman/What causes my torment?"  She then goes to to describe what transpired between her and "Silvandre."

The precise details vary considerably. :D
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 18, 2014, 08:47AM »

It's another old French tune.  Another title for it is "A Vous Direz Je Maman" (something like "Did you call me, Mama").  Mozart wrote a nice set of variations on it but I doubt he would have claimed credit for the tune.

And that's precisely the problem with the claim that Rameau composed Frère Jacques. While the evidence cited suggests he was the first composer known to have transcribed the tune (though it may simply be the earliest known extant transcription), it in no way establishes that he actually composed the tune.
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robcat2075

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« Reply #10 on: Dec 07, 2014, 08:16AM »

I suppose we could score it like this...

Evidence pointing to Rameau, 3

Evidence pointing to anyone else, 0
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Robert Holmén

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