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Author Topic: Delfeayo Marsalis  (Read 6437 times)
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« on: Apr 24, 2015, 03:49PM »

I really like the way he plays and he has a great talent in producing
great recordings

His last three records as a leader are extremely good!
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 24, 2015, 03:57PM »

You should find the video of him putting down DJ at one of the Eastern Trombone Workshops ;-)

The entire Marsalis clan are great musicians -- Daddy Ellis and all his boys.
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 24, 2015, 04:32PM »

He came to town a while ago and held an interactive masterclass type thing about improv. It started out with everyone in this small theater and he played in a combo with some members of a youth jazz program. He then talked a bit about what makes improv good and invited everyone who had an instrument to come down to the stage and circle around the combo. They set down a blues and everyone standing around took a chorus. After your solo he would come up to you and give you a fistbump or something.

Awesome guy, awesome player, and judging by the event I was at he definitely remembers his roots. Also he signed my Realbook which makes me feel obligated to practice more jazz haha!
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« Reply #3 on: Jun 20, 2015, 11:56AM »

I'm sure he is a nice enough guy buy I distinctly remember reading an article in ITA where he seemed to have no problem bashing a few players that he didn't like because of their tendency to play soft and in the mike. I remember at the time it through me off because what he said was so mean spirited, something to the effect of "that style and all of the players involved are a disease". I don't really care much for Delfayos style myself but I wouldn't presume to say something like that.
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« Reply #4 on: Jun 20, 2015, 01:05PM »

I'd like a link to the article and the video - can't find either...
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« Reply #5 on: Jun 20, 2015, 05:21PM »

I met him a couple years ago!  Great player and he was nice enough to let me pick his brain for a bit.
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« Reply #6 on: Jun 21, 2015, 06:25AM »

It seems after studying with Hal Crook, probably on improv, he improved dramatically.  And he's gotten a really decent doodle tongue going. 

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« Reply #7 on: Feb 03, 2017, 01:21AM »

It seems after studying with Hal Crook, probably on improv, he improved dramatically.  And he's gotten a really decent doodle tongue going. 



I asked Hal about Delfayo one time and he didn't really seem to remember much or have much to say. He commented to me that he thinks Delfayo came by his studio and took maybe 1 or 2 lessons in the distant past. I dont think he was a mainstay or one of his students at Berklee. The thing is that lots of people have "studied" with Hal but few have STUDIED with him. I think Delfayo was probably listed as one of Hal's students more as a attention grabber than anything, since it is technically right and it adds to his "legend" as he says. Fact is, anyone can go out to his studio and pay him to take lessons. His small group ensembles at Berklee though, which I was lucky enough to be in for 3 semesters, are ridiculously exclusive and at any given time have 3 or 4 of the best student improvisers in the world, I would wager. These are the people in my eyes that really are around Hal long enough to be able to absorb his concepts and style. Cats like Elliot Mason, Esperanza and Antonio Sanchez.
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 23, 2017, 06:06PM »

You should find the video of him putting down DJ at one of the Eastern Trombone Workshops ;-)

The entire Marsalis clan are great musicians -- Daddy Ellis and all his boys.

I was standing next to DJ when this happened. It was a hoot!
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« Reply #9 on: Feb 23, 2017, 06:40PM »

Zemry's back. :)
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« Reply #10 on: Mar 01, 2017, 11:18PM »

I was fortunate to hear him live at a jazz club (Blues Alley in Georgetown).   It was a surprise, because It was billed as a "trombone summit" consisting of Al Grey, Steve Turre and Robin Eubanks. Delfeayo must have been a last-minute substitute for Robin.  Anyway, this was around 1999 or 2000 and I wasn't familiar with him, but had seen  his family members Ellis and Branford in live shows.     I thoroughly enjoyed his playing.  Still haven't had a chance to catch Robin live yet, though.
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« Reply #11 on: Mar 02, 2017, 04:15PM »

This may seem harsh, but if this guy didn't have a famous brother would anyone be listening this closely ???..............   Really ???






BellEnd
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« Reply #12 on: Mar 02, 2017, 04:31PM »

To be honest, I like more Brandford and Wynton, Wynton being probably the most remarkable of all.
Delfayo is a good musician but can hardly compare to lets say...Wyclife Gordon for example.
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« Reply #13 on: Mar 02, 2017, 05:15PM »

This may seem harsh, but if this guy didn't have a famous brother would anyone be listening this closely ???..............   Really ???

Who knows... most of the trombonists I would consider exceptional wouldn't merit a sideways glance with many of the neanderthals that lurk this site. We've had arguments about whether JJ earned his legendary status on here so I don't think anyone should put too much stock in anyone's opinion just because it appears on TTF.

I like the guy. He has pretty strong opinions which either endear or enrage people, but he's a good guy.

Regardless of what you think of his playing, his writing is top notch. The album "Pontius Pilate's Decision" was killing. It was a huge influence on me. That album alone gives him special status in my book.

He engineered a lot of those Wynton and Branford albums in the 80's and 90's. Great sounding albums.
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« Reply #14 on: Mar 03, 2017, 07:51AM »

Who knows... most of the trombonists I would consider exceptional wouldn't merit a sideways glance with many of the neanderthals that lurk this site. We've had arguments about whether JJ earned his legendary status on here so I don't think anyone should put too much stock in anyone's opinion just because it appears on TTF.

I like the guy. He has pretty strong opinions which either endear or enrage people, but he's a good guy.

Regardless of what you think of his playing, his writing is top notch. The album "Pontius Pilate's Decision" was killing. It was a huge influence on me. That album alone gives him special status in my book.

He engineered a lot of those Wynton and Branford albums in the 80's and 90's. Great sounding albums.

Zach and the Neanderthals

 :D

...Geezer
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« Reply #15 on: Mar 03, 2017, 08:00AM »

The Marsalis bros never seem to lack strong opinions.
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« Reply #16 on: Mar 03, 2017, 09:35AM »


I love that song!
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« Reply #17 on: Mar 03, 2017, 09:47AM »

I love that song!

Lol. I always have as well. I just love the 50's Beatnik manner of expression.

So as not to appear to be digressing from topic too far; seems to me that artists oftentimes play the music of their lives. So I'm wondering where the doo-wop, pop and other music of MY life is being performed on stage by present trombone artists - including the subject of this thread.

...Geezer
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« Reply #18 on: Mar 03, 2017, 03:06PM »

In the case of the Marsalis family "the music of their lives" would probably be jazz anyway. The reason I do not object to their expressing strong opinions is because their arguments are usually based on excellent knowledge of the early jazz styles and pioneers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUnWt21HxMQ

I quite like Delfeayo's playing but the thing I find annoying is his introduction of passages that are only there to show off his technique and do not really contribute to the structure of the solo itself. What Baileyman called his "really decent doodle tongue" is a bit of an annoyance to me in some of his otherwise excellent solos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krg7MFgxJAM

I have to say I am a big fan of the Marsalis brothers and their involvement with the promotion of jazz generally. Ellis is sensational and you never hear one note out of place in his wonderfully structured solos which always enthral me. And he listens to the other soloists and carefully places his comping to back them up.

Yep, good to see Zemry back! Good!
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« Reply #19 on: Mar 03, 2017, 06:39PM »

In the case of the Marsalis family "the music of their lives" would probably be jazz anyway. The reason I do not object to their expressing strong opinions is because their arguments are usually based on excellent knowledge of the early jazz styles and pioneers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUnWt21HxMQ

I quite like Delfeayo's playing but the thing I find annoying is his introduction of passages that are only there to show off his technique and do not really contribute to the structure of the solo itself. What Baileyman called his "really decent doodle tongue" is a bit of an annoyance to me in some of his otherwise excellent solos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krg7MFgxJAM

I have to say I am a big fan of the Marsalis brothers and their involvement with the promotion of jazz generally. Ellis is sensational and you never hear one note out of place in his wonderfully structured solos which always enthral me. And he listens to the other soloists and carefully places his comping to back them up.

Yep, good to see Zemry back! Good!

I agree. But why does that seem to always mean songs of the 40's & 50's? Why not more current songs - "Uptown Funk", "Dream On", etc. Why can't they be "jazz" as well? Did jazz stop evolving when it hit tunes in the 40's & 50's? Apparently...

...Geezer
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« Reply #20 on: Mar 03, 2017, 07:55PM »

I agree. But why does that seem to always mean songs of the 40's & 50's? Why not more current songs - "Uptown Funk", "Dream On", etc. Why can't they be "jazz" as well? Did jazz stop evolving when it hit tunes in the 40's & 50's? Apparently...

...Geezer

As you know, I am always trying to use more current songs in my playing and arranging. But I think the main reason that more Pop tunes are not used in jazz is because the main rhythm of Jazz is swing and many pop tunes do not adapt well that rhythm. Having said that, by coincidence last night I was listening to a CD from my collection called "Rock Swings" by Paul Anka, which contains swing jazz covers of popular rock and pop songs from the 1980s and 1990s. You can read about it on Wikipedia and the article also talks about other artists who have done the same thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Swings

Here are tracks from the album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEjGgkRbuxI&list=PLCB1B0A7C514B9449

The arranging is very much swing but there is little jazz improvisation.

There are other jazz musicians who have explored a more current song repertoire. Dave Steinmeyer is one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SU9lHsEDXI

Nice tenor sax jazz solo in that one.

You also have to pay tribute to Stan Getz for instance who almost single handedly moved the Bossa Nova, a combination of the Samba and Jazz, into the jazz sphere. Again, as you know, the Bossa does make an excellent replacement in jazz for a straight Rock beat.

Then there is Funk which is a combination of soul music, jazz, and rhythm and blues.

I could also comment on how many pop tunes are harmonically uninteresting and rather simplistic in their structure.

I definitely do not think that jazz stopped evolving when it hit the 40s and 50s and after, but it did not find all the material to its liking. There is a difference between liking a melody and being able to use that as a vehicle for improvisation, the essential element of jazz.

Sorry, I think we have strayed away from Delfeayo.   
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« Reply #21 on: Mar 03, 2017, 09:02PM »

Rock Swings by Paul Anka. Dark days, indeed.
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« Reply #22 on: Mar 03, 2017, 09:22PM »

As you know, I am always trying to use more current songs in my playing and arranging. But I think the main reason that more Pop tunes are not used in jazz is because the main rhythm of Jazz is swing and many pop tunes do not adapt well that rhythm. Having said that, by coincidence last night I was listening to a CD from my collection called "Rock Swings" by Paul Anka, which contains swing jazz covers of popular rock and pop songs from the 1980s and 1990s. You can read about it on Wikipedia and the article also talks about other artists who have done the same thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Swings

Here are tracks from the album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEjGgkRbuxI&list=PLCB1B0A7C514B9449

The arranging is very much swing but there is little jazz improvisation.

There are other jazz musicians who have explored a more current song repertoire. Dave Steinmeyer is one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SU9lHsEDXI

Nice tenor sax jazz solo in that one.

You also have to pay tribute to Stan Getz for instance who almost single handedly moved the Bossa Nova, a combination of the Samba and Jazz, into the jazz sphere. Again, as you know, the Bossa does make an excellent replacement in jazz for a straight Rock beat.

Then there is Funk which is a combination of soul music, jazz, and rhythm and blues.

I could also comment on how many pop tunes are harmonically uninteresting and rather simplistic in their structure.

I definitely do not think that jazz stopped evolving when it hit the 40s and 50s and after, but it did not find all the material to its liking. There is a difference between liking a melody and being able to use that as a vehicle for improvisation, the essential element of jazz.

Sorry, I think we have strayed away from Delfeayo.   

I guess we have a bit. But I agree that a lot of pop tunes just aren't cut out for a jazz work-over. I've run into some that I would like to do but can't with a canned background using BiaB. Tunes like "Little Bitty Pretty One" where there is a lot of acapella singing and hand-jiving going on as the accompaniment. Or songs where the melody is very busy & highly structured to where changing it or "jazzing it up" just destroys it. That said, I'm sick to death of all the 30's & 40's songs I find in the Hal Leonard Fake Books. I don't care if they ARE "classics", I'm tired of hearing them ONE. MORE. TIME.

Back to Delfeayo Marsalis?

I have tried to start up a new discussion HERE on this side discussion.

...Geezer
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« Reply #23 on: Mar 05, 2017, 02:27PM »

This may seem harsh, but if this guy didn't have a famous brother would anyone be listening this closely ???..............   Really ???

BellEnd

Doesn't seem harsh at all. Delfeayo Marsalis's playing sounds undergraduate-level to me. His sound doesn't impress me, but that's a personal thing and maybe the mic choice (Blue Baby Bottle?) is not doing him any favours. I'm more bothered about the shaky time, wayward intonation and the shortage of ideas in his improvisations. Here's a video. Rocky time, sour intonation and he doesn't even get through two choruses without repeating himself on a very well-known and fertile set of changes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxF3V5pnoi0

In contrast... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYJfPEdfijc much more technically accomplished and chock full of interesting motifs and lines on the same changes. Weird video though.
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« Reply #24 on: Mar 06, 2017, 03:38PM »

This may seem harsh, but if this guy didn't have a famous brother would anyone be listening this closely ???..............   Really ???

BellEnd


Would anybody?...who knows. There are many greats that are relatively unheard of and have not achieved widespread listening audience despite being successful, if not among the best of the best in their field.

SHOULD anybody be listening? Much easier question.

YES.

Delfeayo's writing and arranging are truly unique, gifted, and that's been a matter of public record for sometime. 

Delfeayo's tone impresses me quite a bit - it takes work to achieve a traditional, pleasing, RESONANT sound that is dominant in the setting of jazz rhythm section, and to learn to control and deliver that sound across four octaves.  He has cultivated a tone and approach full enough to support JJ - inspired playing, yet lithe, casual, shaded and personal enough to evoke the sentimentality and locale of NOLA.   With such a tone he is able to interpret the American Songbook with sentiment, story and character, recognizable from the first not or phrase  -- and to perform in the highly instrumental hard bop and post bop worlds of modern jazz. 

Sonic Silver, I don't know where in the Flinstones clip you hear shaky time.  Please give me a time marking in the clip, and we can talk more about that.  Delfeayo's time is quite often better than most drummers' time, and this clip is no exception.  When you hear Delfeayo with a great drummer like Elvin - which I am fortunate to have heard - it's easy to see how remarkable his time is.

Sour intonation? Yeah, I can hear that, but that's the thing...One person's sour is another person's...perfect. 
You might not like garlic in your jambalaya but itta take my plate to high heaven...

Delfeayo's intonation is KEENLY based on the vocal (pitch) patterns of his people - specifically New Orleanians.  I hear the same intonation tendencies in Harry Connick, Jr. and Louis Armstrong.  Not to mention strewn throughout the history of jazz and NOLA singing for decades. Delfeayo is aiming to capture an document this particular sound, a particular feel with pitch that resonates primarily with listeners who can relate to this inflection, and can process it emotionally, contextually, conversationally...This is not everybody's cup of tea, but I think it to be a viable option (and worth study) for a musician who has set out to provide New Orleans character to his music.  Trombone Shorty sings and plays with many of the same pitch-isms.  Delfeayo is choosing to use pitch to IDENTIFY with that tradition, sound and people, rather than choosing NOT to identify with that.  There is a wisdom and expression to pitch beyond being "in-tune" and I enjoy it.

As for sounding "undergraduate" --  I would love to hear an undergraduate play a transcription of Delf's solo on the Flintstones...Any undergraduate playing on that level will have their choice of where to go to grad school!!! 

Moreover, I think it says more about our cultural paradigm when we use descriptors of jazz performance level based on collegiate mile-markers!...Perhaps Coltrane sounded Post-Doctoral, except for that one record blue train, which was more Graduate Assistant...depends on who's doing the listening and talking, I guess.  I can't imagine Clark Terry, or JJ, or Steve Turre or Slide ever commending some one for sounding "degreed" (maybe that might have meant the guy couldn't play...)  I find the strongest proponents of JAZZ music to sound the least....collegiate.  It certainly took me a long enough time to stop sounding like a graduate of the school I went to, and to learn to be embrace sounding like who I am and where I'm from and who raised me (musically and otherwise).   

Of course, this is subjective --- not everyone shares my tastes -- or the tastes of Art Blakey and Elvin Jones, both of whom Delfeayo played for...(you wouldn't think those drummers would put up with shaky time, would you?)  There are a few people who probably wish I played more like a college graduate than I do now :) But I haven't missed their support at my shows and concerts.

Delfeayo sounds increasingly like who he is: a lively, jazz-immersed trombonist proudly from New Orleans, with an approach that covers everything from before Kid Ory through JJ Johnson and into the Black Codes Wynton era --  and he has been heard many a time by any of those who have followed his career standing toe to toe with Turre, Eubanks, and other titans of the jazz world. 

He has achieved a delivery that is unique, musical, artistically flexible, personable, commercially viable, and he has cultivated an audience that goes so far beyond trombone players.

That puts him on a very short list.

And should put him on every aspiring trombonist's recommended listening list.

There is a reason this was the close of the International Trombone Festival in 2005. The cats that were there are STILL talking about this performance and for good reason. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN--yTnS45Q

I'll be listening, learning, appreciating and growing for time spent studying Delfeayo's body of work, for time spent transcribing his solos, and for time spent sitting in his audience whenever I can.

It's certainly inspired my playing, helped my musicality and development, and lifted my spirits enough so far.
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« Reply #25 on: Mar 06, 2017, 04:53PM »

amen
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« Reply #26 on: Mar 07, 2017, 02:29AM »




Sonic Silver, I don't know where in the Flinstones clip you hear shaky time.  Please give me a time marking in the clip, and we can talk more about that. 

After a second listen, I hear a difference of opinion in rhythmic feel and where to sit on the beat between bass + drums and the piano. I hear an inconsistent degree of swing from the trombone. Mostly it's quite square, but occasionally swings quite strongly at phrase ends. Overall it just doesn't sound tight to me. He's consistently late on "they're the modern stone-age family" after breathing. In fact, there's a few places where he's late after breathing. 0:50 lick isn't rhythmically convincing at all. Trips himself up at 1:07. Little things, but you wouldn't hear them from Carl Fontana. Good excuse to listen to this again and wonder how he makes it sound so easy ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61fFKnTMsiI


Delfeayo's intonation is KEENLY based on the vocal (pitch) patterns of his people - specifically New Orleanians.  I hear the same intonation tendencies in Harry Connick, Jr. and Louis Armstrong.  Not to mention strewn throughout the history of jazz and NOLA singing for decades. Delfeayo is aiming to capture an document this particular sound, a particular feel with pitch that resonates primarily with listeners who can relate to this inflection, and can process it emotionally, contextually, conversationally...This is not everybody's cup of tea, but I think it to be a viable option (and worth study) for a musician who has set out to provide New Orleans character to his music.  Trombone Shorty sings and plays with many of the same pitch-isms.  Delfeayo is choosing to use pitch to IDENTIFY with that tradition, sound and people, rather than choosing NOT to identify with that.  There is a wisdom and expression to pitch beyond being "in-tune" and I enjoy it.

That's a brave try at justifying what is - let's be honest - simply out of tune playing. I'll unpack the term undergraduate a bit because as some have pointed out, you can't hear what certificates a man has on the wall by listening to his trombone. Delfeayo's playing sounds like he's not fully grasped the mechanics of his instrument yet or just a bit out of practice. There's the intonation but also the articulations sound stiff, as if he's struggling for tempo or tonguing too hard. He shows us nothing special in terms of pitch range and quality is a bit off on a few of the higher notes he does use. He demonstrates a pretty limited take on the changes. He might not be telling us everything he knows about Rhythm, but given how often he repeats himself (that repeated note thing - enough already!) and how much of the material takes the easy option of blues scale over the A section rather than getting hold of the actual changes, I'm thinking bit more jazz vocabulary would make it more interesting to listen to. So, being not fully sorted out technically and being quite some way from a repleteness of musical imagination are characteristics of many undergrad musicians. That's perfectly ok because they're there to learn.

Someone made the comparison with Wycliffe Gordon and I think it's a good one. Wycliffe's command of the instrument, including New Orleans style techniques, is way beyond Delfeayo's and he seems to have an endless stream of crazy motifs and lines. Here he is soloing over the same changes at 2:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH5GIbu7M6I I think we can all hear that that's a different level of playing, can't we?
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« Reply #27 on: Mar 07, 2017, 04:19AM »

After a second listen, I hear a difference of opinion in rhythmic feel and where to sit on the beat between bass + drums and the piano. I hear an inconsistent degree of swing from the trombone. Mostly it's quite square, but occasionally swings quite strongly at phrase ends. Overall it just doesn't sound tight to me. He's consistently late on "they're the modern stone-age family" after breathing. In fact, there's a few places where he's late after breathing. 0:50 lick isn't rhythmically convincing at all. Trips himself up at 1:07. Little things, but you wouldn't hear them from Carl Fontana. Good excuse to listen to this again and wonder how he makes it sound so easy ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61fFKnTMsiI


That's a brave try at justifying what is - let's be honest - simply out of tune playing. I'll unpack the term undergraduate a bit because as some have pointed out, you can't hear what certificates a man has on the wall by listening to his trombone. Delfeayo's playing sounds like he's not fully grasped the mechanics of his instrument yet or just a bit out of practice. There's the intonation but also the articulations sound stiff, as if he's struggling for tempo or tonguing too hard. He shows us nothing special in terms of pitch range and quality is a bit off on a few of the higher notes he does use. He demonstrates a pretty limited take on the changes. He might not be telling us everything he knows about Rhythm, but given how often he repeats himself (that repeated note thing - enough already!) and how much of the material takes the easy option of blues scale over the A section rather than getting hold of the actual changes, I'm thinking bit more jazz vocabulary would make it more interesting to listen to. So, being not fully sorted out technically and being quite some way from a repleteness of musical imagination are characteristics of many undergrad musicians. That's perfectly ok because they're there to learn.

Someone made the comparison with Wycliffe Gordon and I think it's a good one. Wycliffe's command of the instrument, including New Orleans style techniques, is way beyond Delfeayo's and he seems to have an endless stream of crazy motifs and lines. Here he is soloing over the same changes at 2:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH5GIbu7M6I I think we can all hear that that's a different level of playing, can't we?

Yeah, but how does it sound? Not too shabby!

...Geezer
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« Reply #28 on: Mar 07, 2017, 04:33AM »

Someone must be getting paid to write this tripe.
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« Reply #29 on: Mar 07, 2017, 04:45AM »

If your personal taste dictates you love DM's music, sound, et al...ok.  But fawning over yet another Marsalis doesn't do him any favors. It just increases the contingent who believe the only reason he's been anywhere is because of his family.  All of our great long-standing jazz players certainly don't want to offend that family. They carry more weight than they really should .

 An objective and constructive conversation about what DM does or doesn't do well would be more acceptable then just sycophantic faWning.  NobodY's perfect, not even our greats from the past! More power to DM for at least attempting to take the chance he's gotten and make something out of it . All that having been said he's not anywhere on my list of who I want to listen to. But I do applaud him for having the guts to stand out in front of people and take his chances.
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« Reply #30 on: Mar 07, 2017, 05:08AM »


 An objective and constructive conversation about what DM does or doesn't do well would be more acceptable then just sycophantic faWning.  NobodY's perfect, not even our greats from the past! More power to DM for at least attempting to take the chance he's gotten and make something out of it . All that having been said he's not anywhere on my list of who I want to listen to. But I do applaud him for having the guts to stand out in front of people and take his chances.

Well said. Standing out front opens you to criticism but at least he's there and gigging. He's no Conrad or Andy Martin for sure, but maybe the rougher technical stuff and simpler improv fits better in the (continuing) New Orleans tradition. His stage presence and style as a "Jazzman" is really good and as an on-stage act in a venue he probably makes a good impression on the audience.
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« Reply #31 on: Mar 07, 2017, 05:14PM »

If this topic illustrates nothing else,

may it illustrate that people HEAR differently.

I'm replying to SS's points to bring this disparity in hearing to the surface, not to argue the points.

We could each listen a hundred times and hear the same thing different ways.

Listen for yourselves and form your own conclusions. 

Hopefully, having this simple record of disagreements when listening to the same clips will illustrate how differently we hear and evaluate one from the next.  Again, that is the real point to chew on here.

He's consistently late on "they're the modern stone-age family" after breathing. In fact, there's a few places where he's late after breathing.

No, sir. I do not hear that at all.

And having noticed on a second listen that the rhythm section has different feels happening amongst themselves  -- who do you think he is late according to? the Drummer? The Bassist?  This phrase in Delf's delivery is SPOT on with the ride cymbal of the drummer.  It's relaxed and it surely swings.  It swings through and through.  Delf's time is flexible enough to collaborate with different members of the band at different times, which gives much more variety and challenge and adventure for him to negotiate. I wouldn't dare get on stage with a band like this, but Delfeayo welcomes this difference to be hashed out in motion on the bandstand, and he "officiates".  Handling this would be unlivable tension for me, but perhaps musical tension (espeically over rhythmic timing) feels like home to him.  It's a routine trademark of his touring bands, and it's no accident. As much JJ as Delfeayo has in him, and as much as JJ's rhythm sections were completely unified in time, this must be an intentional, aware, feature that Delfeayo is involving.

We can't agree on his lateness in the spots that you mentioned, and I simply can't hear it late like you do. Of course our definitions of swinging may not the same....

Little things, but you wouldn't hear them from Carl Fontana.

In the Fontana clip, you also don't hear resonance of tone and command of the instrument at any semblance of mezzo forte or above, command of articulation nuance at mezzo forte and above, and you hear very minimal interaction with the rhythm section (no responsiveness or conversation going in any direction).  It's a monologue.  There's also severe shifts in momentum and flow.  Maybe these, too, are "little things", but things you don't hear in the extended solos of JJ Turre, Al Grey, Wycliffe, Dease, etc...I mean - if these two clips (Delfeayo and Fontana) had to speak for each artist's viability playing Rochut Etudes....

I don't see any of the above to take away from Carl - his recording Heavyweights with Bobby Shew should be on all brass player's listening list, and as a matter of learning the influential styles of the instrument, a reasonable performance-level familiarity with the line of playing from Urbie-Carl-Watrous-Fedchock should be a matter of required method study for graduate jazz trombonists.  There are still some gigs to be had, and some recording sessions to be paid for that apply that style.  And I strongly believe graduate study should require a student achieve a performance standard with ALL commercially viable avenues of performance related to jazz.

Speaking of undergraduates -- I've been shocked at the minimal amount of resonance and tonal command of recent undergraduates.  If you are in college as a jazz major, and you aren't cultivating enough sound to play traditionally in a brass band, modern 3 piece horn section (with sax and trumpet), big band, and in some cities - a salsa band, then you need a new teacher, and your jazz degree is not preparing you for a broad jazz/freelance career.  It's rough when a cat with a degree can't hold down My Girl on a wedding gig....


...how much of the material takes the easy option of blues scale over the A section rather than getting hold of the actual changes...

First of all, he's playing THE blues. 
It's not a scale. 
Nor is it performed here like a scale (which is a fairly undergraduate thing to do, and why sounding like you had a degree was so often spoken of as a negative among blues-saavy musicians of ANY genre across the last 40 years).
 
And your notion of the blues being an easy option...may I again refer you back to the average undergraduate's conception of playing the blues?

Oh wait -- speaking of the blues scale...In the clip you posted of Fontana on Rhythm changes, at 1:31, starting on the cracked A-flat, we find Carl taking the option of applying "blueness" across half a chorus - in fact coming very close to repeating the whole 8 bar sequence back to back...did you hear that?
 

Someone made the comparison with Wycliffe Gordon and I think it's a good one. Wycliffe's command of the instrument, including New Orleans style techniques, is way beyond Delfeayo's and he seems to have an endless stream of crazy motifs and lines. Here he is soloing over the same changes at 2:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH5GIbu7M6I I think we can all hear that that's a different level of playing, can't we?


We can all hear that's a different level of playing?

Depends on who's listening. I can't hear with your ears, and you certainly aren't hearing with mine.

First of all -- this whole clip of artist A vs clip if artist B approach is shallow to begin with.  In Wycliffe's clip, yes there's deft command of the horn, primarily espoused in sweeps including the high register and multiple tonguing, and in a great milieu of sounds being created.  But there is very little linear, be-bop rooted, JJ-Curtis-Slide represented. 

Now, that's not a problem to me - (I LISTEN TO LOUIS ARMSTRONG for enjoyment.)
But let's say I'm Elvin Jones, who leads a post-bop jazz combo.  Can you see that I would be struggling if I called a horn player who played with the swing, riff based phrasing that Wycliffe uses here in this particular clip? I  mean - Coltrane could unpack a descent from the top of the horn to the bottom out over two minutes!  The fact that Wycliffe can get from high F to low Bb in a split second would mean very little on Elvin's bandstand, and Delf's short repeated notes would actually provide an intensity that Elvin could do something with.  I mean, that's how Elvin and Delfeayo's performances together sound to me. 

Have you heard them together?

Even as I ask that, I realize:

my, how people HEAR differently.

I remember taking an arranging class with Cecil Bridgewater, and cats came in trying to write in the funk and soul idiom.  Cecil played a recording of an alto sax player for the class, and half the class started tearing up the guys's intonation, time, tone, blues dependance, etc...and one guy said he sounded like a fifth grade David Sanborn.  Meanwhile those of us who could hear and relate to what the cat was gettin' said were shocked, because we knew we were hearing a BAD MF, a legendary player, and we knew it was Hank Crawford.  The uninformed had to shut up when Cecil read one of the many quotes where Sanborn cited Crawford as a great, and said without Hank Crawford, there would be no Sanborn.  And shut up they did, despite not HEARING any differently.

I also had a professor that would grade compositions and arrangements like this: Does it sound like you wanted it to sound? If yes, then you get an A. (Even if the piece was so weak it wouldn't have passed for good music of any genre.) That professor had figured out that he was there to equip seekers with arranging solutions, but he could not make students HEAR any different (or better) than who they were and what they were ready to tackle.  I remember watching him sit through AWFUL performances, and gleefully ask at the end, "Is that what you wanted it to sound like?" And the student was like, "yeah, that was cool, I think."  "A-plus, and Congratulations," he'd say. 

No feedback on the What A Wonderful World clip? 
Did you hear it?  Did you hear the humbling, lengthy applause after? I'm not making any arguments, I'm just wondering if you heard it.  Does that cause you at all to question what you might be missing if you hear nothing special in this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN--yTnS45Q

At near 400,000 views - again, I'd recommend to the aspiring trombonist - check this out.  There's a reason people come back to listen to you again and again, and this performance is a classic.  A classic to me is a piece of music that gets better on repeated listening.

And if you can't hear anything worthwhile in this performance, then once again - people hear very differently. 


I can't help but remember what the veterans used to say to a critic who popped up with a negative critique on what many heard as great playing:


"Yeah, but yo' lady sho' like it tho."



To each his own...
(Ears that is...)










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« Reply #32 on: Mar 07, 2017, 06:06PM »

Amazing comments in this thread. 

Personally there's only so much listening I can do to absorb a good example for emulation, so I put players into listen/do not listen piles.  One guy here I listen to all the time.  The other I would go hear if he were in town.  Otherwise, nope. 

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« Reply #33 on: Mar 07, 2017, 10:00PM »

MJT for the win

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« Reply #34 on: Mar 08, 2017, 12:40AM »

MJT for the win


Hear, hear.
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« Reply #35 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:27AM »

I never said that DM is a bad musician or instrumentalist and I never will. I will probably never play as well as he does.
But his scholastic-cool approach failed to appeal to me. He may be an amazing producer, arranger or composer (I don't know this kind of his work to comment on) but his more famous brothers Wynton and Brandford sound to me much more inspiring and impressive. Maybe it's me.
As I said, I would be happy to get even to his trombone level.
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« Reply #36 on: Mar 08, 2017, 06:27AM »



No, sir. I do not hear that at all.

Well listen more carefully then. Tap quarter notes, listen to the bass. I'm astonished that you can't hear the rhythmic inaccuracy there. To me it's like an air raid siren.

Fair point about the combo being loose, groove-wise, swing-wise. Perhaps that's why DM is wavering here and there.

In the Fontana clip, you also don't hear resonance of tone and command of the instrument at any semblance of mezzo forte or above, command of articulation nuance at mezzo forte and above, and you hear very minimal interaction with the rhythm section (no responsiveness or conversation going in any direction).  It's a monologue.  There's also severe shifts in momentum and flow. 

It's true, Carl Fontana would never have done a good job of Mahler 3. The point of the clip is to show very accurate intonation and rhythm over the same changes. I never said that Carl - or anyone else - represents the definitive way to play jazz on a trombone. It's just one way, but convincing intonation and rhythm are prerequisites of every style.


About playing blues over Rhythm changes, yes a bit is a nice colour, but too much quickly palls on the ear. Overuse also misses out on some of the nice little chromatic major-minor shifts in the actual changes. I think DM overuses the blues, although on a positive note I quite like his turnarounds. Carl uses a couple of bluesy phrases in 4 choruses, was it? His repetition here sounds ok to me, although some of his little descending chromatic devices crop up more than once.

We should all hear that Wycliffe is on a different level of playing. He plays extremely well in tune and with very good rhythmic accuracy which is an instant step up over Delfeayo. Yes the style and approach is different. Like everyone else, I like variety. I'd just like a bit of care over the basics.

I've not heard DM and Elvin Jones together live, but the recordings I've heard bear out what you say about them fitting together well. There's definitely a more locked-in feel to Elvin's playing that is apparent in Delfeayo's playing too. I once noticed the same change in my own playing as a younger man, on a series of gigs including a very fine and well-known drummer whose name I shall not drop. It was one of those eye-opening musical moments and I've always tried to keep some of the guy's energy and precision in my own playing.

What A Wonderful World is definitely a better effort than Flinstones or Autumn Leaves. Apart from the details of any blemishes, Delfeayo just sounds generally ungainly on the horn in the latter two songs in this genre - but much more fluid with Elvin Jones. It's almost like two different players. Wonderful World has some lovely phrases and nice little glints of harmonic colour. It sounds more studied-in-depth to me because DM has much more to say to us here. Still a couple of winces over intonation though...

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« Reply #37 on: Mar 08, 2017, 09:54AM »

Firstly, it's not a competition.
Secondly, jealousy is ugly.
Thirdly, DM's playing a trombone. Isn't this a brotherhood? (Sisterhood!)
Fourthly, I think he is more fluid than many other players who play a lot more notes.
Fifthly, he is the product of his culture as are we all. This makes life interesting.
Sixthly, the above point applies to all aspects of playing, including intonation, as MJT has so eloquently put.
Seventhly, I'm not a pro, or a great jazz musician, but I'm clever enough to know that analysing to learn is a great idea, but analysing to rubbish someone is a fools game.
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« Reply #38 on: Mar 08, 2017, 10:34AM »

Firstly, it's not a competition.

+1

Still, we are all entitled to have our own preferences.
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« Reply #39 on: Mar 08, 2017, 04:09PM »

Well listen more carefully then. Tap quarter notes, listen to the bass.

Clearly you mean to shift my opinion. 
You suggest that I'm not investing enough care in my effort to listen. 
And you have provided instructions on how I should apply rhythm in my own body, and what I should focus my ears on.

In your very next sentence, you say  my point is fair about the rhythm section being loose.  This is same point you made saying it stood out on "second listen" to you earlier.  Now, the looseness of the rhythm section did not take me a second listen to hear, nor did it take more than ten seconds for me to hear the first time, but that's not the most important point. 

You have instructed me --  saying I should tap quarter notes, listen to the bass. 

If the rhythm section is loose, and you acknowledge that -- HOW DID YOU PICK THE BASS TO MEASURE DM BY????
Why the bass and not the drummer? Do you normally choose to play with the bassist when the drummer and the bassist play different beats?

Should the quarter notes I tap be in sync with drummer, or DM, or the bassist?

I fear the quarter notes you are tapping don't fit with ANYONE in the clip...they are likely a reflection of your own time feel...which is...well...trusted by you...

Your words read well enough but there's not enough articulated substance for me to even try to hear it your way.  Not that I'm trying too hard, admittedly.  Best way for me to hear it your way is to cover my ears so far.


convincing intonation and rhythm are prerequisites of every style.


Oh that sounds so good and full of authority, but it's surely not true.

First of all - Convincing to who????

I think the International Trombone Festival offering DM the Finale concert is a pretty serious endorsement that he's convincing.
(not to you, but to....well, a lot of other people)...


About playing blues over Rhythm changes, yes a bit is a nice colour, but too much quickly palls on the ear.


Again, who's ear???

Yours or Al Grey's, Or Louis Armstrong's, or JJ's? or Mine?


We should all hear that

I didn't even bother adding the rest of the quote, frankly, because it's not important.  The important part that I want the trombone community reading to consider is that SonicSilver is telling you what you should hear. 

Please remember - we all hear differently.  You will not find me telling anybody what they should hear.  All my time in education and my own development, following my own tastes, and shedding up my own approach have taught me that we do not all hear alike, we do not all judge on the same qualitative standards, we are all individuals, with unique ideas, expressions and musical priorities. 

Anyone that is telling you what you SHOULD hear is not willing to meet you on the grounds of what you DO hear.

And the ground of what you DO hear is the real ground.  For better and for worse.

We all hear differently.  Delfeayo lit a fire in me when I was a young man just getting up, and continues to inspire and challenge and motivate me. 

Enough people can hear that he sounds good for him to be NEA Jazz Master, ITA Conference performer, and for him to have selected by so many jazz titans to chair the trombone in some fairly high-end situations. 

It's funny that the person saying "we should all hear that" is the one standing in the most apparent, widespread, disagreement with history, the International Trombone Association, and well-respected trombonists and audiences worldwide. 

We all hear differently. Embrace that - hear for yourself. Make your own decisions. You won't find me arguing with Sonic Silver over what he hears and what I hear, because Proverbs 20:12 is real out here --- and for those of you who can hear how special and accomplished a player DM is, I look forward to rubbing elbows at his shows and likely, seeing some of the same ones of y'all at my shows. 

you feel me?
or should I say,
ya heard?

(thems two, feeling and hearing, usually go together...)




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« Reply #40 on: Mar 09, 2017, 03:07AM »

Ah, I see now. You can hear these things in Delfeayo's playing, but you don't want to. Or don't want to say. Or don't want to categorise them as faults.

You don't want to criticise him because you like his playing overall and maybe him personally.

You don't want to go against received opinion in the trombone community.

You don't want to breach professional etiquette.

You feel that criticising one aspect of his playing might cast aspersions on others that are good?

You feel that criticising DM makes a claim for your own standard of playing that you don't wish to make?


All of that is understandable and I've no objection. However, perceiving - shall we say? - rhythm and intonation outside of conventional regular structures without any apparent design, and then making up ex post facto justifications for the deviations without establishing any consistent guidelines for them... Well, I don't think that's a very genuine approach.

Rhythmic and intonation accuracy aren't really subjective at heart: they are mathematically governed. We recognise these mathematical patterns because this is how the universe is built. Deviations from the pattern, like different degrees of swing, Viennese Waltz rhythm or outside lines, can be quantified if we really worked them out under the microscope, but it's easier and quicker - but less accurate - to "feel" them. Full quantisation sounds weird and inhuman (I get this impression from Bob McChesney sometimes. What a player, but soooo accurate that it sounds a little unreal). There's a bit of room for uneven and imperfect humanisation to bring a bit of life to the sound. That narrow space is where taste, style and subjectivity comes in. In this small respect, you're right that we don't all hear alike, but the great majority of it is a matter of numbers and ratios. Anyone who's spent time in front of the Cubase (or similar) screen will know what I mean. Again, you're right that not everyone hears like that, but a listener's opinion does not change the waveform. Interesting philosophical point though, about whether there is an objective reality that we can have in common, independent of our sensory perceptions.

The disagreement here isn't over whether these mathematical deviations are there or not, in Delfeayo's playing or anyone else's. The difference of opinion is whether they are musically acceptable, functional, appropriate. Without some kind of discernible rationale, deviations are just random inaccuracies, without musical intention or design and I wear my Sound Engineer's hat. If they follow a pattern then there is an intent behind them and some attempt at musical expression that we can consider, so I wear my Musician's hat. The blemishes I noted are things that I would certainly correct in a practice session or in studio editing/mixing. Maybe others wouldn't bother. When I'm wearing my Sound Engineer's Bat Ears™, I hear all sorts of stuff that other people swear to god isn't there, but that I can prove is there by pointing to the waveform. In live performance we just take a breath, do our best and hope no one notices or minds if we err, don't we?
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« Reply #41 on: Mar 09, 2017, 07:25AM »



This should be well over by now, but let me finish this with an in depth look at this response.


You start off by saying that you see now.

And then you lay out three possibilites on my stance. 

Uhhh...which one of dems do you see??? All...None...2 outta 3...you guessin'?

If you saw clearly, you wouldn't need the word "OR" so many times.

You then follow that with three statements about me...which are then followed by two questions?

You sure do have a lot of asking in your clear seeing.
You shouldn't need to ask me any questions if you see clearly.



You characterize my approach as not genuine.  (I'm assuming you mean my approach to be one of the nine or so possibilities you mentioned in the labelling statements and questions and OR this's and Or that's...)

If we were having a worthwhile discussion, you should have said "mistaken" or "errant" or "aloof" - but to say it is not genuine throws a question of honesty, character and intent in the mix. 

Folks can search years of my previous posts and come to their own conclusions about how genuine I am.

I ain't new here.  And am glad to be the one you are throwing some shade on because by questioning me, you have picked a well-known, reliable, documented resource in the trombone community.  That makes this a whole lot clearer.  And will serve to make this a very simple matter for years as readers come across this thread.

You however have managed to draw the expressed trustworthiness eye of forum readers who openly question your motives quite quickly - and I personally have afforded you (as misguided and sad as I find your conclusions (not your observations, but your conclusions on DM to be) dealing with you without questioning the character or motive of your writing.  I have responded to you with the presumption of character.

Clearly we can all see that's more respect than you afford me.


Rhythmic and intonation accuracy aren't really subjective at heart: they are mathematically governed.

 

Rhythmic and intonation accuracy may be mathematically observable, and reflected on a waveform -- but they are aesthetically and spiritually enjoyed, and since enjoyment is subjective, where does that leave math?

Somewhere there is a man who is a sucker for a girl with a slow, deep Southern accent, and somewhere there is a man who is a sucker for the girl who sounds like Rosie Perez, full of NY edge and sass...And somewhere there's an English Professor to remind us that proper speech is about successful intonation, emphasis and clarity of vowels and consonants, and maybe to point out when others are saying things incorrectly....

Man, if what DM does bothers you, don't listen.  That is where your conclusions lead.

But thousands of the rest of us will continue to listen to the man because our conclusions based on his playing are enjoyment. 

You don't hear enough to enjoy?  That's no problem.  You aren't the first, and won't be the last to hear it your way.
 
(Most of my elders hated Charlie Parker....and loved Hank Crawford...do the math on that.)

But telling others what they should hear - that they should hear what you hear and come to similar conclusions based on your aesthetic paradigms to compare musicians of entirely different aesthetic agenda, and all the rest of this business...


No sir.

I expect a reply from you.  You seem to have an itch for the last word - but I think I have said enough to be done here.





(If a mic is dropped in a recording studio but no one is there to hear it....)








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« Reply #42 on: Mar 09, 2017, 07:36AM »

I hope you are finished with this topic. Agree to disagree with out all the pontification, please.
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« Reply #43 on: Mar 09, 2017, 07:41AM »


I hope you are finished with this topic. Agree to disagree with out all the pontification, please.
Hey, this is a serious and vital music discussion going on right now. Let's let it play out.



....

not to pile on or derail a conversation I quite enjoy, but....



Rhythmic and intonation accuracy aren't really subjective at heart: they are mathematically governed.

Um, yes, but not in the way you're implying.

If that were the case we'd all make our drummers use metronomes. You might dig that. I do not. I'll take any classic recording of the Basie or Ellington bands over those over produced metronomes coming out of hollywood studios.

If that were the case, roughly 95% of jazz musicians would sound like crap because the blues does not use a pythagorean or even tempered tuning system. The only even tempered tuning you'll hear on any jazz recording is the piano.

The blues (and the purposeful alteration of pitch associated with it) are an integral part of jazz. You don't recognize it? Fine. Some people think Indian classical music is out of tune. Those people are idiots.

For giggles, you should take those trombonists you dig so much and put them in audacity or transcribe, and slow it way down. Just do it... you hear those intonation issues in those fast runs? Explain that...

In good rhythm sections there is a natural push and pull between the bass and the drums (I DO listen to the bassist by the way, that's the guy you hold onto when the chaos gets thick). This push and pull (usually drummer on top, bass on the back end) is called "pocket." There's a reason why so many of those thrown together rhythm sections on those overproduced albums sound sterile, and why they don't usually have the swing that you hear coming from PC and Philly Joe, or Sam Woodyard and Jimmy Wood.
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« Reply #44 on: Mar 09, 2017, 08:40AM »

Delfeayo is a great player and musician.  HIs solo on the Marsalis Family live concert on Ellis' tune "Swingin' at the Haven" is one of my favorite trombone solos- it had a huge impact on me as a 19yr old student. I have my students work on it as well, and I love seeing them connect with it like I did.  I also really enjoyed his recording "Pontius Pilate's Decision"

Musically, I love hearing the influence of New Orleans and JJ reflected in his sound and improv approach.  To me, he has an especially full and both pretty/dark sound on a smaller horn- that's not easy.  The one time I met Delfeayo 15 years ago, we were both warming up for a performance at Jazz @ Lincoln Center. He didn't say anything to me, just demonstrated a Whisper Tone Long Tone exercise for me, them motioned (with a head nod!) for me to try it.  I tried it, failed, then tried it again- finally got it.  He finished his warmup and leaned over, said to me:  "whisper tones... good for your aperture, support, air speed, practically everything."  that exercise helped me big time, and I dug the old school way of showing me. 

Michael Dease
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« Reply #45 on: Mar 09, 2017, 09:45AM »

Whisper tones? is this the same as  breath "attacks"?
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« Reply #46 on: Mar 09, 2017, 10:08AM »

Whisper tones? is this the same as  breath "attacks"?

No.  If I'm understanding Mr Dease correctly, it's a Cat Anderson technique intended, at least in its original form, to help develop high range on trumpet.

Saw Delfeayo with his big band at Snug Harbor in New Orleans a couple of years ago.  Brilliant - his playing, arranging, leading.  Saw Jason there a few nights later with his vibes quartet doing their Bechet thing.  Also amazing - his drummer, a Treme legend whose name rather embarrassingly escapes me, was mesmerising, doing things with a tiny kit that left me almost crying.  Genetic freaks, I guess, those Marsalis boys.
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« Reply #47 on: Mar 09, 2017, 03:46PM »

I agree with Zach: it is a useful discussion, with the exception of our friend's little tantrum. Hope it was a dynamic mic he dropped, not a condenser or a ribbon.

A Delfeayo worship session isn't of much use or interest to me. We're really talking about what we think sounds good or not so good and how we decide.

Here's another version of Flintstones which I think is better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsoBRIQCMII
I'm still hearing intonation problems. Eb sounds consistently very sharp. His solo uses much of the same material from the first video we saw and is harmonically a bit basic and bland compared to other efforts I've heard. Alternating by semitone appears several times, and his repeated note thing several times. There's a little fanfare motif he uses in his solo and again in the trades. This apparent lack of imagination or deliberately restricted choice bothers me. I'm thinking, yes I heard you the first time, what else ya got? There's still something about his playing that sounds clumsy to me. It's a combination of the rhythmic value of his swing feel, a relative lack of elided or ghosted notes, and a hard-ish articulation.

On the plus side, nothing's upsetting me timing wise. Tonal quality just what I like: fat and solid but with sizzly, burning edges. Strange, because the engineering is otherwise pretty gruesome. Different trombone (Bach), different mic (SM58), different group, different acoustic space so who knows? Too many variables.

Since Micheal Dease has posted, I thought I'd point out that his playing is super-good in the areas where I've criticised Delfeayo. I couldn't find him doing Rhythm but here's another up-tempo swinging standard  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApkhqfgLeUc
I like the way he moves around the instrument fluidly but with punch and energy: no hitches or glitches anywhere. Very accurate intonation. Great inside treatment of the changes but also some clever reharmonisation and a splash of outside colour in a couple of places. There's a fountain of ideas and great variety in the phrase shapes and lengths. I particularly like the way he develops little motifs. 0:40 and 1:24 are magic. On the downside, the trombone sound is terrible and not a fair representation of the man's tone at all. Or was baritone bumblebee what they were aiming for??  Don't know
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« Reply #48 on: Mar 09, 2017, 04:47PM »

I brought up this thread to a student today, and to a tenor player a couple of days ago. Both of them (like me) are fans of Delf - some of us through playing with him and digging his music - the other guy only through listening.

After reading the thread, my student asked to check out Pontius Pilate, he'd only heard the Ellington thing he did a few years ago.

Maybe it was just how my eyes lit up when the title track started, or how I got up and starting doing my best faux-burlesque to "Weary Ways" or how the last two tracks turned me into mush, but he seemed to dig it just as hard. Afterwards he said I must've listened to that album a lot, because he's heard me play so many of those licks. I did - I can still play PPD and Magdalene note for note (I checked.) A few years ago we had Delf in town as a guest artist. In the rehearsals before he came to town, I got to play his parts. It'd probably been 20 years since I bought that album, but I could still play just about every note of his solos on the PPD stuff. When something sticks to you that long, there's something special about it.

My student said he wanted to buy the album, I told him to track down a CD if he can find it, the liner notes are an awesome work of art. I rummaged through my bin of CDs, then had to run to the bank. I'll look later, but I'm pretty sure I have it one of my CD bibles. I think I'll frame the liner notes if I find them.
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« Reply #49 on: Mar 10, 2017, 07:00AM »

Analysing is good, but music is about soul and engaging emotionally. If you dig it, great.
Different cultures have different conventions and this is true within jazz. Are you able to listen to music with quarter tones? What about reggae? What about literally thousands of recordings of the greats? One person's out of tune note is another's blue note. Go back to your favourite recordings and listen as critically. What do you hear?
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« Reply #50 on: Mar 10, 2017, 07:35AM »


Since Micheal Dease has posted, I thought I'd point out that his playing is super-good in the areas where I've criticised Delfeayo.


Please know that people replying to a post in no way should lead the post off topic.  This is a thread about Delfeayo Marsalis, not about comparing Delfeayo Marsalis to everyone who posts an opinion of him (good or bad).

Following the logic of comparing Delfeayo to people who have posted on this thread --

Sonic Silver, you have posted a lot on this thread.

So....in the same logic you are using to keep the comparison games going ("Because Dease posted, I'll compare him to Delf") --

Don't you have a clip of YOUR OWN playing we can compare and contrast with Delfeayo's?????

Maybe a track from your last record?

as Katt Williams says,

"It's ok...I'll wait."

And you seem to have notice Dease posted, but not replied to a single word the brutha said...

Maybe you were in the studio recording a few choruses of rhythm changes for us :)

Fingers crossed. 

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« Reply #51 on: Mar 11, 2017, 07:01AM »


Don't you have a clip of YOUR OWN playing we can compare and contrast with Delfeayo's?????


I'll be away for a week but when I get back I'll try my best to entertain you with a couple of laps around Rhythm.

Is there a prize, and how do we decide if I've won it or not?
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« Reply #52 on: Mar 11, 2017, 07:04AM »

I'll be away for a week but when I get back I'll try my best to entertain you with a couple of laps around Rhythm.

Is there a prize, and how do we decide if I've won it or not?

You'll know if you won, because there won't be any comments made.  :-0 That's how it works on TTF. Very, very few people agree to something good, but just state something that is controversial...

lol

...Geezer
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« Reply #53 on: Mar 12, 2017, 02:44PM »

you'll know if you've won because all the cats reading this thread will contact you to start sending you on the gigs they can't make, and once you break out on the scene, maybe you'll get to play with the greatest jazz drummers of all time...and maybe you'll be recognized as NEA Jazz Master...and maybe the ITA will award you with a performing spot to close jazz night at an upcoming festival...

THEN you'll know...

just be sure to put the track on a new thread...maybe call it "Sonic Silver". 

This thread is not about YOU, nor is the proper place to submit performances for in depth reviews of yourself or other artists.

As for their being a prize - this is so not about competition...

But that doesn't mean you won't be famous when this is all said and done.

:)




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« Reply #54 on: Mar 17, 2017, 01:25PM »

No.  If I'm understanding Mr Dease correctly, it's a Cat Anderson technique intended, at least in its original form, to help develop high range on trumpet.

So, I'm just dying to ask...did you develop a high range on trumpet?
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« Reply #55 on: Mar 17, 2017, 03:55PM »

So, I'm just dying to ask...did you develop a high range on trumpet?

No, I did not.  I don't play trumpet much anymore.
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« Reply #56 on: Mar 17, 2017, 04:52PM »

DM and Carl Fontana don't really play enough alike to compare them, any more than Miles and Louie. They trade in a different currency. If you judge Miles by how good of a Louie he was, you might not think he was worth listening to. You could find that one phrase where Miles started late after a breath, almost for sure, or where he used pitch creatively, or where he chipped a note, and it would surely prove something, and by all means give the time stamp to prove you're right.

Maybe this is peculiar to trombone, because we play such a demanding and difficult instrument, so we're tempted to artificially elevate the technical aspects of playing onto some sort of pedestal over and above art. I wonder if you could go on the piano forum and hear side-by-side comparisons of Monk and Oscar Peterson each playing the same changes, designed to "prove" that one or the other wasn't very good.
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« Reply #57 on: Mar 17, 2017, 07:15PM »

DM and Carl Fontana don't really play enough alike to compare them, any more than Miles and Louie. They trade in a different currency. If you judge Miles by how good of a Louie he was, you might not think he was worth listening to. You could find that one phrase where Miles started late after a breath, almost for sure, or where he used pitch creatively, or where he chipped a note, and it would surely prove something, and by all means give the time stamp to prove you're right.

Maybe this is peculiar to trombone, because we play such a demanding and difficult instrument, so we're tempted to artificially elevate the technical aspects of playing onto some sort of pedestal over and above art. I wonder if you could go on the piano forum and hear side-by-side comparisons of Monk and Oscar Peterson each playing the same changes, designed to "prove" that one or the other wasn't very good.

On comparing Miles with Louis, it should be noted that Miles once said he never played anything that Louis had not already played. :D But that is just a bit of fun and your statement is correct.

I particularly wanted to agree with you on your point that I have changed to a red colour in your post. Unfortunately, it happens a lot on this forum that people elevate the importance of technical aspects used by some trombone improvisers. What they should really be looking at is the improvisers ability to melodically express his own personality in a particular sub-genre of jazz and hold the listener spellbound wanting to know where the solo is going to end up. Good!   
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« Reply #58 on: Mar 18, 2017, 12:30AM »

On comparing Miles with Louis, it should be noted that Miles once said he never played anything that Louis had not already played.

---snip---

I suggest that anyone who thinks Miles was kidding should go listen to the duet that Louis did w/Fatha Hines. Weatherbird. 1928. It is as simultaneously as free and as disciplined as anything the Miles/Herbie/Tony Williams/Ron Carter/Wayne Shorter quintet ever played. Total improvisation, total joy. The very beginning of real jazz. Pure improvisation, pure talent.



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