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Author Topic: Delfeayo Marsalis  (Read 6427 times)
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Graham Martin
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« Reply #20 on: Mar 03, 2017, 07:55PM »

I agree. But why does that seem to always mean songs of the 40's & 50's? Why not more current songs - "Uptown Funk", "Dream On", etc. Why can't they be "jazz" as well? Did jazz stop evolving when it hit tunes in the 40's & 50's? Apparently...

...Geezer

As you know, I am always trying to use more current songs in my playing and arranging. But I think the main reason that more Pop tunes are not used in jazz is because the main rhythm of Jazz is swing and many pop tunes do not adapt well that rhythm. Having said that, by coincidence last night I was listening to a CD from my collection called "Rock Swings" by Paul Anka, which contains swing jazz covers of popular rock and pop songs from the 1980s and 1990s. You can read about it on Wikipedia and the article also talks about other artists who have done the same thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Swings

Here are tracks from the album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEjGgkRbuxI&list=PLCB1B0A7C514B9449

The arranging is very much swing but there is little jazz improvisation.

There are other jazz musicians who have explored a more current song repertoire. Dave Steinmeyer is one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SU9lHsEDXI

Nice tenor sax jazz solo in that one.

You also have to pay tribute to Stan Getz for instance who almost single handedly moved the Bossa Nova, a combination of the Samba and Jazz, into the jazz sphere. Again, as you know, the Bossa does make an excellent replacement in jazz for a straight Rock beat.

Then there is Funk which is a combination of soul music, jazz, and rhythm and blues.

I could also comment on how many pop tunes are harmonically uninteresting and rather simplistic in their structure.

I definitely do not think that jazz stopped evolving when it hit the 40s and 50s and after, but it did not find all the material to its liking. There is a difference between liking a melody and being able to use that as a vehicle for improvisation, the essential element of jazz.

Sorry, I think we have strayed away from Delfeayo.   
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« Reply #21 on: Mar 03, 2017, 09:02PM »

Rock Swings by Paul Anka. Dark days, indeed.
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« Reply #22 on: Mar 03, 2017, 09:22PM »

As you know, I am always trying to use more current songs in my playing and arranging. But I think the main reason that more Pop tunes are not used in jazz is because the main rhythm of Jazz is swing and many pop tunes do not adapt well that rhythm. Having said that, by coincidence last night I was listening to a CD from my collection called "Rock Swings" by Paul Anka, which contains swing jazz covers of popular rock and pop songs from the 1980s and 1990s. You can read about it on Wikipedia and the article also talks about other artists who have done the same thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Swings

Here are tracks from the album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEjGgkRbuxI&list=PLCB1B0A7C514B9449

The arranging is very much swing but there is little jazz improvisation.

There are other jazz musicians who have explored a more current song repertoire. Dave Steinmeyer is one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SU9lHsEDXI

Nice tenor sax jazz solo in that one.

You also have to pay tribute to Stan Getz for instance who almost single handedly moved the Bossa Nova, a combination of the Samba and Jazz, into the jazz sphere. Again, as you know, the Bossa does make an excellent replacement in jazz for a straight Rock beat.

Then there is Funk which is a combination of soul music, jazz, and rhythm and blues.

I could also comment on how many pop tunes are harmonically uninteresting and rather simplistic in their structure.

I definitely do not think that jazz stopped evolving when it hit the 40s and 50s and after, but it did not find all the material to its liking. There is a difference between liking a melody and being able to use that as a vehicle for improvisation, the essential element of jazz.

Sorry, I think we have strayed away from Delfeayo.   

I guess we have a bit. But I agree that a lot of pop tunes just aren't cut out for a jazz work-over. I've run into some that I would like to do but can't with a canned background using BiaB. Tunes like "Little Bitty Pretty One" where there is a lot of acapella singing and hand-jiving going on as the accompaniment. Or songs where the melody is very busy & highly structured to where changing it or "jazzing it up" just destroys it. That said, I'm sick to death of all the 30's & 40's songs I find in the Hal Leonard Fake Books. I don't care if they ARE "classics", I'm tired of hearing them ONE. MORE. TIME.

Back to Delfeayo Marsalis?

I have tried to start up a new discussion HERE on this side discussion.

...Geezer
« Last Edit: Mar 04, 2017, 04:44AM by Geezerhorn » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: Mar 05, 2017, 02:27PM »

This may seem harsh, but if this guy didn't have a famous brother would anyone be listening this closely ???..............   Really ???

BellEnd

Doesn't seem harsh at all. Delfeayo Marsalis's playing sounds undergraduate-level to me. His sound doesn't impress me, but that's a personal thing and maybe the mic choice (Blue Baby Bottle?) is not doing him any favours. I'm more bothered about the shaky time, wayward intonation and the shortage of ideas in his improvisations. Here's a video. Rocky time, sour intonation and he doesn't even get through two choruses without repeating himself on a very well-known and fertile set of changes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxF3V5pnoi0

In contrast... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYJfPEdfijc much more technically accomplished and chock full of interesting motifs and lines on the same changes. Weird video though.
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« Reply #24 on: Mar 06, 2017, 03:38PM »

This may seem harsh, but if this guy didn't have a famous brother would anyone be listening this closely ???..............   Really ???

BellEnd


Would anybody?...who knows. There are many greats that are relatively unheard of and have not achieved widespread listening audience despite being successful, if not among the best of the best in their field.

SHOULD anybody be listening? Much easier question.

YES.

Delfeayo's writing and arranging are truly unique, gifted, and that's been a matter of public record for sometime. 

Delfeayo's tone impresses me quite a bit - it takes work to achieve a traditional, pleasing, RESONANT sound that is dominant in the setting of jazz rhythm section, and to learn to control and deliver that sound across four octaves.  He has cultivated a tone and approach full enough to support JJ - inspired playing, yet lithe, casual, shaded and personal enough to evoke the sentimentality and locale of NOLA.   With such a tone he is able to interpret the American Songbook with sentiment, story and character, recognizable from the first not or phrase  -- and to perform in the highly instrumental hard bop and post bop worlds of modern jazz. 

Sonic Silver, I don't know where in the Flinstones clip you hear shaky time.  Please give me a time marking in the clip, and we can talk more about that.  Delfeayo's time is quite often better than most drummers' time, and this clip is no exception.  When you hear Delfeayo with a great drummer like Elvin - which I am fortunate to have heard - it's easy to see how remarkable his time is.

Sour intonation? Yeah, I can hear that, but that's the thing...One person's sour is another person's...perfect. 
You might not like garlic in your jambalaya but itta take my plate to high heaven...

Delfeayo's intonation is KEENLY based on the vocal (pitch) patterns of his people - specifically New Orleanians.  I hear the same intonation tendencies in Harry Connick, Jr. and Louis Armstrong.  Not to mention strewn throughout the history of jazz and NOLA singing for decades. Delfeayo is aiming to capture an document this particular sound, a particular feel with pitch that resonates primarily with listeners who can relate to this inflection, and can process it emotionally, contextually, conversationally...This is not everybody's cup of tea, but I think it to be a viable option (and worth study) for a musician who has set out to provide New Orleans character to his music.  Trombone Shorty sings and plays with many of the same pitch-isms.  Delfeayo is choosing to use pitch to IDENTIFY with that tradition, sound and people, rather than choosing NOT to identify with that.  There is a wisdom and expression to pitch beyond being "in-tune" and I enjoy it.

As for sounding "undergraduate" --  I would love to hear an undergraduate play a transcription of Delf's solo on the Flintstones...Any undergraduate playing on that level will have their choice of where to go to grad school!!! 

Moreover, I think it says more about our cultural paradigm when we use descriptors of jazz performance level based on collegiate mile-markers!...Perhaps Coltrane sounded Post-Doctoral, except for that one record blue train, which was more Graduate Assistant...depends on who's doing the listening and talking, I guess.  I can't imagine Clark Terry, or JJ, or Steve Turre or Slide ever commending some one for sounding "degreed" (maybe that might have meant the guy couldn't play...)  I find the strongest proponents of JAZZ music to sound the least....collegiate.  It certainly took me a long enough time to stop sounding like a graduate of the school I went to, and to learn to be embrace sounding like who I am and where I'm from and who raised me (musically and otherwise).   

Of course, this is subjective --- not everyone shares my tastes -- or the tastes of Art Blakey and Elvin Jones, both of whom Delfeayo played for...(you wouldn't think those drummers would put up with shaky time, would you?)  There are a few people who probably wish I played more like a college graduate than I do now :) But I haven't missed their support at my shows and concerts.

Delfeayo sounds increasingly like who he is: a lively, jazz-immersed trombonist proudly from New Orleans, with an approach that covers everything from before Kid Ory through JJ Johnson and into the Black Codes Wynton era --  and he has been heard many a time by any of those who have followed his career standing toe to toe with Turre, Eubanks, and other titans of the jazz world. 

He has achieved a delivery that is unique, musical, artistically flexible, personable, commercially viable, and he has cultivated an audience that goes so far beyond trombone players.

That puts him on a very short list.

And should put him on every aspiring trombonist's recommended listening list.

There is a reason this was the close of the International Trombone Festival in 2005. The cats that were there are STILL talking about this performance and for good reason. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN--yTnS45Q

I'll be listening, learning, appreciating and growing for time spent studying Delfeayo's body of work, for time spent transcribing his solos, and for time spent sitting in his audience whenever I can.

It's certainly inspired my playing, helped my musicality and development, and lifted my spirits enough so far.
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« Reply #25 on: Mar 06, 2017, 04:53PM »

amen
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« Reply #26 on: Mar 07, 2017, 02:29AM »




Sonic Silver, I don't know where in the Flinstones clip you hear shaky time.  Please give me a time marking in the clip, and we can talk more about that. 

After a second listen, I hear a difference of opinion in rhythmic feel and where to sit on the beat between bass + drums and the piano. I hear an inconsistent degree of swing from the trombone. Mostly it's quite square, but occasionally swings quite strongly at phrase ends. Overall it just doesn't sound tight to me. He's consistently late on "they're the modern stone-age family" after breathing. In fact, there's a few places where he's late after breathing. 0:50 lick isn't rhythmically convincing at all. Trips himself up at 1:07. Little things, but you wouldn't hear them from Carl Fontana. Good excuse to listen to this again and wonder how he makes it sound so easy ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61fFKnTMsiI


Delfeayo's intonation is KEENLY based on the vocal (pitch) patterns of his people - specifically New Orleanians.  I hear the same intonation tendencies in Harry Connick, Jr. and Louis Armstrong.  Not to mention strewn throughout the history of jazz and NOLA singing for decades. Delfeayo is aiming to capture an document this particular sound, a particular feel with pitch that resonates primarily with listeners who can relate to this inflection, and can process it emotionally, contextually, conversationally...This is not everybody's cup of tea, but I think it to be a viable option (and worth study) for a musician who has set out to provide New Orleans character to his music.  Trombone Shorty sings and plays with many of the same pitch-isms.  Delfeayo is choosing to use pitch to IDENTIFY with that tradition, sound and people, rather than choosing NOT to identify with that.  There is a wisdom and expression to pitch beyond being "in-tune" and I enjoy it.

That's a brave try at justifying what is - let's be honest - simply out of tune playing. I'll unpack the term undergraduate a bit because as some have pointed out, you can't hear what certificates a man has on the wall by listening to his trombone. Delfeayo's playing sounds like he's not fully grasped the mechanics of his instrument yet or just a bit out of practice. There's the intonation but also the articulations sound stiff, as if he's struggling for tempo or tonguing too hard. He shows us nothing special in terms of pitch range and quality is a bit off on a few of the higher notes he does use. He demonstrates a pretty limited take on the changes. He might not be telling us everything he knows about Rhythm, but given how often he repeats himself (that repeated note thing - enough already!) and how much of the material takes the easy option of blues scale over the A section rather than getting hold of the actual changes, I'm thinking bit more jazz vocabulary would make it more interesting to listen to. So, being not fully sorted out technically and being quite some way from a repleteness of musical imagination are characteristics of many undergrad musicians. That's perfectly ok because they're there to learn.

Someone made the comparison with Wycliffe Gordon and I think it's a good one. Wycliffe's command of the instrument, including New Orleans style techniques, is way beyond Delfeayo's and he seems to have an endless stream of crazy motifs and lines. Here he is soloing over the same changes at 2:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH5GIbu7M6I I think we can all hear that that's a different level of playing, can't we?
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« Reply #27 on: Mar 07, 2017, 04:19AM »

After a second listen, I hear a difference of opinion in rhythmic feel and where to sit on the beat between bass + drums and the piano. I hear an inconsistent degree of swing from the trombone. Mostly it's quite square, but occasionally swings quite strongly at phrase ends. Overall it just doesn't sound tight to me. He's consistently late on "they're the modern stone-age family" after breathing. In fact, there's a few places where he's late after breathing. 0:50 lick isn't rhythmically convincing at all. Trips himself up at 1:07. Little things, but you wouldn't hear them from Carl Fontana. Good excuse to listen to this again and wonder how he makes it sound so easy ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61fFKnTMsiI


That's a brave try at justifying what is - let's be honest - simply out of tune playing. I'll unpack the term undergraduate a bit because as some have pointed out, you can't hear what certificates a man has on the wall by listening to his trombone. Delfeayo's playing sounds like he's not fully grasped the mechanics of his instrument yet or just a bit out of practice. There's the intonation but also the articulations sound stiff, as if he's struggling for tempo or tonguing too hard. He shows us nothing special in terms of pitch range and quality is a bit off on a few of the higher notes he does use. He demonstrates a pretty limited take on the changes. He might not be telling us everything he knows about Rhythm, but given how often he repeats himself (that repeated note thing - enough already!) and how much of the material takes the easy option of blues scale over the A section rather than getting hold of the actual changes, I'm thinking bit more jazz vocabulary would make it more interesting to listen to. So, being not fully sorted out technically and being quite some way from a repleteness of musical imagination are characteristics of many undergrad musicians. That's perfectly ok because they're there to learn.

Someone made the comparison with Wycliffe Gordon and I think it's a good one. Wycliffe's command of the instrument, including New Orleans style techniques, is way beyond Delfeayo's and he seems to have an endless stream of crazy motifs and lines. Here he is soloing over the same changes at 2:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH5GIbu7M6I I think we can all hear that that's a different level of playing, can't we?

Yeah, but how does it sound? Not too shabby!

...Geezer
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« Reply #28 on: Mar 07, 2017, 04:33AM »

Someone must be getting paid to write this tripe.
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« Reply #29 on: Mar 07, 2017, 04:45AM »

If your personal taste dictates you love DM's music, sound, et al...ok.  But fawning over yet another Marsalis doesn't do him any favors. It just increases the contingent who believe the only reason he's been anywhere is because of his family.  All of our great long-standing jazz players certainly don't want to offend that family. They carry more weight than they really should .

 An objective and constructive conversation about what DM does or doesn't do well would be more acceptable then just sycophantic faWning.  NobodY's perfect, not even our greats from the past! More power to DM for at least attempting to take the chance he's gotten and make something out of it . All that having been said he's not anywhere on my list of who I want to listen to. But I do applaud him for having the guts to stand out in front of people and take his chances.
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« Reply #30 on: Mar 07, 2017, 05:08AM »


 An objective and constructive conversation about what DM does or doesn't do well would be more acceptable then just sycophantic faWning.  NobodY's perfect, not even our greats from the past! More power to DM for at least attempting to take the chance he's gotten and make something out of it . All that having been said he's not anywhere on my list of who I want to listen to. But I do applaud him for having the guts to stand out in front of people and take his chances.

Well said. Standing out front opens you to criticism but at least he's there and gigging. He's no Conrad or Andy Martin for sure, but maybe the rougher technical stuff and simpler improv fits better in the (continuing) New Orleans tradition. His stage presence and style as a "Jazzman" is really good and as an on-stage act in a venue he probably makes a good impression on the audience.
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« Reply #31 on: Mar 07, 2017, 05:14PM »

If this topic illustrates nothing else,

may it illustrate that people HEAR differently.

I'm replying to SS's points to bring this disparity in hearing to the surface, not to argue the points.

We could each listen a hundred times and hear the same thing different ways.

Listen for yourselves and form your own conclusions. 

Hopefully, having this simple record of disagreements when listening to the same clips will illustrate how differently we hear and evaluate one from the next.  Again, that is the real point to chew on here.

He's consistently late on "they're the modern stone-age family" after breathing. In fact, there's a few places where he's late after breathing.

No, sir. I do not hear that at all.

And having noticed on a second listen that the rhythm section has different feels happening amongst themselves  -- who do you think he is late according to? the Drummer? The Bassist?  This phrase in Delf's delivery is SPOT on with the ride cymbal of the drummer.  It's relaxed and it surely swings.  It swings through and through.  Delf's time is flexible enough to collaborate with different members of the band at different times, which gives much more variety and challenge and adventure for him to negotiate. I wouldn't dare get on stage with a band like this, but Delfeayo welcomes this difference to be hashed out in motion on the bandstand, and he "officiates".  Handling this would be unlivable tension for me, but perhaps musical tension (espeically over rhythmic timing) feels like home to him.  It's a routine trademark of his touring bands, and it's no accident. As much JJ as Delfeayo has in him, and as much as JJ's rhythm sections were completely unified in time, this must be an intentional, aware, feature that Delfeayo is involving.

We can't agree on his lateness in the spots that you mentioned, and I simply can't hear it late like you do. Of course our definitions of swinging may not the same....

Little things, but you wouldn't hear them from Carl Fontana.

In the Fontana clip, you also don't hear resonance of tone and command of the instrument at any semblance of mezzo forte or above, command of articulation nuance at mezzo forte and above, and you hear very minimal interaction with the rhythm section (no responsiveness or conversation going in any direction).  It's a monologue.  There's also severe shifts in momentum and flow.  Maybe these, too, are "little things", but things you don't hear in the extended solos of JJ Turre, Al Grey, Wycliffe, Dease, etc...I mean - if these two clips (Delfeayo and Fontana) had to speak for each artist's viability playing Rochut Etudes....

I don't see any of the above to take away from Carl - his recording Heavyweights with Bobby Shew should be on all brass player's listening list, and as a matter of learning the influential styles of the instrument, a reasonable performance-level familiarity with the line of playing from Urbie-Carl-Watrous-Fedchock should be a matter of required method study for graduate jazz trombonists.  There are still some gigs to be had, and some recording sessions to be paid for that apply that style.  And I strongly believe graduate study should require a student achieve a performance standard with ALL commercially viable avenues of performance related to jazz.

Speaking of undergraduates -- I've been shocked at the minimal amount of resonance and tonal command of recent undergraduates.  If you are in college as a jazz major, and you aren't cultivating enough sound to play traditionally in a brass band, modern 3 piece horn section (with sax and trumpet), big band, and in some cities - a salsa band, then you need a new teacher, and your jazz degree is not preparing you for a broad jazz/freelance career.  It's rough when a cat with a degree can't hold down My Girl on a wedding gig....


...how much of the material takes the easy option of blues scale over the A section rather than getting hold of the actual changes...

First of all, he's playing THE blues. 
It's not a scale. 
Nor is it performed here like a scale (which is a fairly undergraduate thing to do, and why sounding like you had a degree was so often spoken of as a negative among blues-saavy musicians of ANY genre across the last 40 years).
 
And your notion of the blues being an easy option...may I again refer you back to the average undergraduate's conception of playing the blues?

Oh wait -- speaking of the blues scale...In the clip you posted of Fontana on Rhythm changes, at 1:31, starting on the cracked A-flat, we find Carl taking the option of applying "blueness" across half a chorus - in fact coming very close to repeating the whole 8 bar sequence back to back...did you hear that?
 

Someone made the comparison with Wycliffe Gordon and I think it's a good one. Wycliffe's command of the instrument, including New Orleans style techniques, is way beyond Delfeayo's and he seems to have an endless stream of crazy motifs and lines. Here he is soloing over the same changes at 2:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH5GIbu7M6I I think we can all hear that that's a different level of playing, can't we?


We can all hear that's a different level of playing?

Depends on who's listening. I can't hear with your ears, and you certainly aren't hearing with mine.

First of all -- this whole clip of artist A vs clip if artist B approach is shallow to begin with.  In Wycliffe's clip, yes there's deft command of the horn, primarily espoused in sweeps including the high register and multiple tonguing, and in a great milieu of sounds being created.  But there is very little linear, be-bop rooted, JJ-Curtis-Slide represented. 

Now, that's not a problem to me - (I LISTEN TO LOUIS ARMSTRONG for enjoyment.)
But let's say I'm Elvin Jones, who leads a post-bop jazz combo.  Can you see that I would be struggling if I called a horn player who played with the swing, riff based phrasing that Wycliffe uses here in this particular clip? I  mean - Coltrane could unpack a descent from the top of the horn to the bottom out over two minutes!  The fact that Wycliffe can get from high F to low Bb in a split second would mean very little on Elvin's bandstand, and Delf's short repeated notes would actually provide an intensity that Elvin could do something with.  I mean, that's how Elvin and Delfeayo's performances together sound to me. 

Have you heard them together?

Even as I ask that, I realize:

my, how people HEAR differently.

I remember taking an arranging class with Cecil Bridgewater, and cats came in trying to write in the funk and soul idiom.  Cecil played a recording of an alto sax player for the class, and half the class started tearing up the guys's intonation, time, tone, blues dependance, etc...and one guy said he sounded like a fifth grade David Sanborn.  Meanwhile those of us who could hear and relate to what the cat was gettin' said were shocked, because we knew we were hearing a BAD MF, a legendary player, and we knew it was Hank Crawford.  The uninformed had to shut up when Cecil read one of the many quotes where Sanborn cited Crawford as a great, and said without Hank Crawford, there would be no Sanborn.  And shut up they did, despite not HEARING any differently.

I also had a professor that would grade compositions and arrangements like this: Does it sound like you wanted it to sound? If yes, then you get an A. (Even if the piece was so weak it wouldn't have passed for good music of any genre.) That professor had figured out that he was there to equip seekers with arranging solutions, but he could not make students HEAR any different (or better) than who they were and what they were ready to tackle.  I remember watching him sit through AWFUL performances, and gleefully ask at the end, "Is that what you wanted it to sound like?" And the student was like, "yeah, that was cool, I think."  "A-plus, and Congratulations," he'd say. 

No feedback on the What A Wonderful World clip? 
Did you hear it?  Did you hear the humbling, lengthy applause after? I'm not making any arguments, I'm just wondering if you heard it.  Does that cause you at all to question what you might be missing if you hear nothing special in this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN--yTnS45Q

At near 400,000 views - again, I'd recommend to the aspiring trombonist - check this out.  There's a reason people come back to listen to you again and again, and this performance is a classic.  A classic to me is a piece of music that gets better on repeated listening.

And if you can't hear anything worthwhile in this performance, then once again - people hear very differently. 


I can't help but remember what the veterans used to say to a critic who popped up with a negative critique on what many heard as great playing:


"Yeah, but yo' lady sho' like it tho."



To each his own...
(Ears that is...)










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« Reply #32 on: Mar 07, 2017, 06:06PM »

Amazing comments in this thread. 

Personally there's only so much listening I can do to absorb a good example for emulation, so I put players into listen/do not listen piles.  One guy here I listen to all the time.  The other I would go hear if he were in town.  Otherwise, nope. 

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« Reply #33 on: Mar 07, 2017, 10:00PM »

MJT for the win

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« Reply #34 on: Mar 08, 2017, 12:40AM »

MJT for the win


Hear, hear.
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« Reply #35 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:27AM »

I never said that DM is a bad musician or instrumentalist and I never will. I will probably never play as well as he does.
But his scholastic-cool approach failed to appeal to me. He may be an amazing producer, arranger or composer (I don't know this kind of his work to comment on) but his more famous brothers Wynton and Brandford sound to me much more inspiring and impressive. Maybe it's me.
As I said, I would be happy to get even to his trombone level.
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sonicsilver
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« Reply #36 on: Mar 08, 2017, 06:27AM »



No, sir. I do not hear that at all.

Well listen more carefully then. Tap quarter notes, listen to the bass. I'm astonished that you can't hear the rhythmic inaccuracy there. To me it's like an air raid siren.

Fair point about the combo being loose, groove-wise, swing-wise. Perhaps that's why DM is wavering here and there.

In the Fontana clip, you also don't hear resonance of tone and command of the instrument at any semblance of mezzo forte or above, command of articulation nuance at mezzo forte and above, and you hear very minimal interaction with the rhythm section (no responsiveness or conversation going in any direction).  It's a monologue.  There's also severe shifts in momentum and flow. 

It's true, Carl Fontana would never have done a good job of Mahler 3. The point of the clip is to show very accurate intonation and rhythm over the same changes. I never said that Carl - or anyone else - represents the definitive way to play jazz on a trombone. It's just one way, but convincing intonation and rhythm are prerequisites of every style.


About playing blues over Rhythm changes, yes a bit is a nice colour, but too much quickly palls on the ear. Overuse also misses out on some of the nice little chromatic major-minor shifts in the actual changes. I think DM overuses the blues, although on a positive note I quite like his turnarounds. Carl uses a couple of bluesy phrases in 4 choruses, was it? His repetition here sounds ok to me, although some of his little descending chromatic devices crop up more than once.

We should all hear that Wycliffe is on a different level of playing. He plays extremely well in tune and with very good rhythmic accuracy which is an instant step up over Delfeayo. Yes the style and approach is different. Like everyone else, I like variety. I'd just like a bit of care over the basics.

I've not heard DM and Elvin Jones together live, but the recordings I've heard bear out what you say about them fitting together well. There's definitely a more locked-in feel to Elvin's playing that is apparent in Delfeayo's playing too. I once noticed the same change in my own playing as a younger man, on a series of gigs including a very fine and well-known drummer whose name I shall not drop. It was one of those eye-opening musical moments and I've always tried to keep some of the guy's energy and precision in my own playing.

What A Wonderful World is definitely a better effort than Flinstones or Autumn Leaves. Apart from the details of any blemishes, Delfeayo just sounds generally ungainly on the horn in the latter two songs in this genre - but much more fluid with Elvin Jones. It's almost like two different players. Wonderful World has some lovely phrases and nice little glints of harmonic colour. It sounds more studied-in-depth to me because DM has much more to say to us here. Still a couple of winces over intonation though...

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francischap
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« Reply #37 on: Mar 08, 2017, 09:54AM »

Firstly, it's not a competition.
Secondly, jealousy is ugly.
Thirdly, DM's playing a trombone. Isn't this a brotherhood? (Sisterhood!)
Fourthly, I think he is more fluid than many other players who play a lot more notes.
Fifthly, he is the product of his culture as are we all. This makes life interesting.
Sixthly, the above point applies to all aspects of playing, including intonation, as MJT has so eloquently put.
Seventhly, I'm not a pro, or a great jazz musician, but I'm clever enough to know that analysing to learn is a great idea, but analysing to rubbish someone is a fools game.
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« Reply #38 on: Mar 08, 2017, 10:34AM »

Firstly, it's not a competition.

+1

Still, we are all entitled to have our own preferences.
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ModernJazzTrombonist
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« Reply #39 on: Mar 08, 2017, 04:09PM »

Well listen more carefully then. Tap quarter notes, listen to the bass.

Clearly you mean to shift my opinion. 
You suggest that I'm not investing enough care in my effort to listen. 
And you have provided instructions on how I should apply rhythm in my own body, and what I should focus my ears on.

In your very next sentence, you say  my point is fair about the rhythm section being loose.  This is same point you made saying it stood out on "second listen" to you earlier.  Now, the looseness of the rhythm section did not take me a second listen to hear, nor did it take more than ten seconds for me to hear the first time, but that's not the most important point. 

You have instructed me --  saying I should tap quarter notes, listen to the bass. 

If the rhythm section is loose, and you acknowledge that -- HOW DID YOU PICK THE BASS TO MEASURE DM BY????
Why the bass and not the drummer? Do you normally choose to play with the bassist when the drummer and the bassist play different beats?

Should the quarter notes I tap be in sync with drummer, or DM, or the bassist?

I fear the quarter notes you are tapping don't fit with ANYONE in the clip...they are likely a reflection of your own time feel...which is...well...trusted by you...

Your words read well enough but there's not enough articulated substance for me to even try to hear it your way.  Not that I'm trying too hard, admittedly.  Best way for me to hear it your way is to cover my ears so far.


convincing intonation and rhythm are prerequisites of every style.


Oh that sounds so good and full of authority, but it's surely not true.

First of all - Convincing to who????

I think the International Trombone Festival offering DM the Finale concert is a pretty serious endorsement that he's convincing.
(not to you, but to....well, a lot of other people)...


About playing blues over Rhythm changes, yes a bit is a nice colour, but too much quickly palls on the ear.


Again, who's ear???

Yours or Al Grey's, Or Louis Armstrong's, or JJ's? or Mine?


We should all hear that

I didn't even bother adding the rest of the quote, frankly, because it's not important.  The important part that I want the trombone community reading to consider is that SonicSilver is telling you what you should hear. 

Please remember - we all hear differently.  You will not find me telling anybody what they should hear.  All my time in education and my own development, following my own tastes, and shedding up my own approach have taught me that we do not all hear alike, we do not all judge on the same qualitative standards, we are all individuals, with unique ideas, expressions and musical priorities. 

Anyone that is telling you what you SHOULD hear is not willing to meet you on the grounds of what you DO hear.

And the ground of what you DO hear is the real ground.  For better and for worse.

We all hear differently.  Delfeayo lit a fire in me when I was a young man just getting up, and continues to inspire and challenge and motivate me. 

Enough people can hear that he sounds good for him to be NEA Jazz Master, ITA Conference performer, and for him to have selected by so many jazz titans to chair the trombone in some fairly high-end situations. 

It's funny that the person saying "we should all hear that" is the one standing in the most apparent, widespread, disagreement with history, the International Trombone Association, and well-respected trombonists and audiences worldwide. 

We all hear differently. Embrace that - hear for yourself. Make your own decisions. You won't find me arguing with Sonic Silver over what he hears and what I hear, because Proverbs 20:12 is real out here --- and for those of you who can hear how special and accomplished a player DM is, I look forward to rubbing elbows at his shows and likely, seeing some of the same ones of y'all at my shows. 

you feel me?
or should I say,
ya heard?

(thems two, feeling and hearing, usually go together...)




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