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Author Topic: Trigger snapped off Getzen 1062  (Read 2364 times)
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SethMatrix

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« on: May 02, 2015, 03:27PM »

Well, I was playing my Getzen 1062fd as usual, when I pressed the trigger for Low Eb in a run of notes and the trigger snapped. You can see it in the picture at this link http://imgur.com/JENqKQ2

Any tips? I know I'll have to take it to a repairman. But is there any way I can put a temporary fix on it? Has anyone seen this before?
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paulyg
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2015, 03:34PM »

This looks like a problem for JB Weld!
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HouBassTrombone

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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2015, 03:45PM »

That happens all the time on a lot of makes of horns. Easy fix.
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2015, 04:24PM »

DO NOT GLUE IT!!!!!

In a pinch, cable ties work until you can get it to a tech.

These bridges are silver soldered, or brazed on, and "shouldn't" come off. (Although that's an older bridge, so it "may" have been soft soldered on). Ask your tech if they have silver bearing solder, which is still a soft solder, but does't need the heat associated with hard silver solder. Ideally, it would be silver soldered back on, but that is a BIG job to do properly, and involves removing the cross brace, unless you want to urn a bunch of lacquer.

FWIW...
M
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2015, 04:25PM »

Oh, and by the way....

DON"T GLUE IT!!!!!

With "ANY" type of glue!!!

M
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Matthew Walker
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The Sackbutist

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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2015, 04:29PM »

Happened on the exact same horn my director has. He said it was the night be for his recital too. One of those metal hose clamps that have the screw to tighten it was what he used.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2015, 04:37PM »

Now if you had an Indy (1052) you could pull the Gb slide to F and play that way.  But this one is dependent and you can't get away with that.

The temporary fix with the hose clamp (need a pretty small one) or the cable ties (two, one on each side of the spring) would work until you can get it to a shop.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2015, 04:49PM »

This looks like a problem for JB Weld!

Oooo!  You should be bent over for even MENTIONING jb weld!!

8]

Hose clamp in a pinch,  as mentioned.

Yamaha is the only ones I've ever seen brazed on.  But that's just me.

Easy fix and solid if using silver bearing solder,  and done right.......

Eric

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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2015, 05:31PM »

Now if you had an Indy (1052) you could pull the Gb slide to F and play that way.  But this one is dependent and you can't get away with that.

Exactly what I was going to say. There is another pro to indy horns.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 11:29PM by Bassmentbone » Logged
SethMatrix

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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2015, 05:33PM »

So I shouldn't use glue, or jb weld?

Hopefully I can get one of these hose clamps from Walmart. Do I need two of them? One for each side? I'll take it to a tech soon.
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2015, 06:26PM »

Newer getzen are brazed as are newer shires.  Older Getzens thst where soft soldered on fell off a lot.  Reason, the cast saddles for the levers where made of a silica bronze that was not rated for good bonds when soft soldering. However the same metal is very suitable for silver brazing.

Benn
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armjstp

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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2015, 09:37PM »

Happened to my friend's Getzen, too!

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The Marching Virginians
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2015, 06:19AM »

When I have a saddle with a small footprint I silver solder a larger flange beneath it.  This way I have a repositionable saddle, but with the added footprint it won't come loose.
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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2015, 06:39AM »

It happened to my 1062 3 times. I finally called Getzen and they sent a part with a larger saddle that holds the solder joint.  Call them. 
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2015, 09:03AM »

That happened to my band 1062 in the final rehearsal before a concert.
My buddy is a repair tech, she just cleaned it up and soft soldered it back on.  It was fine after that, with no further problems.
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timothy42b
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2015, 10:27AM »

Well, I was playing my Getzen 1062fd as usual, when I pressed the trigger for Low Eb in a run of notes and the trigger snapped. You can see it in the picture at this link http://imgur.com/JENqKQ2

Any tips? I know I'll have to take it to a repairman. But is there any way I can put a temporary fix on it? Has anyone seen this before?

Wow, there's hardly any footprint to that joint.

My Bach had twice as much saddle and it still broke.  That's a high stress joint.

I'm going to side with those who say take it to a tech.  I tried to fit a hose clamp or cable ties and there just wasn't room. 

JBWeld is about as strong as soft solder but harder to clean up, and any tech will charge you twice as much when you do take it in.  Get it done right and you won't have to worry about it. 

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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2015, 04:22PM »

Gonna sidetrack a little here:
Wow, there's hardly any footprint to that joint.

My Bach had twice as much saddle and it still broke.  That's a high stress joint.
<snip>
This is an interesting point.  I personally do not like having my thumb "in front" of the main bell brace because I use the brace to help support the horn.  Now, I appreciate that not everyone agrees with me about that, but I think everyone would agree that trombone ergonomics are petty awful in general...

Which brings me to this thought:
is the fragility that some are finding with this saddle mounting a result of them partially supporting the horn via the trigger?  I note that there are two vectors in play here:
1) operating the trigger as designed results in largely tension being applied to the joint.
2) supporting the horn by the trigger results in largely sheer forces being applied to the joint.

The "seat of the pants engineer" in me expects the sheer strength of the mounting to be somewhat greater than the tension strength, but does anyone actually know if this is correct in this context?

Like Tim I have a Bach (one of my horns is a 42A) and I've never had this problem, but then I also cobbled together a "thumb support" (a bit like the Greenhoe one) so I didn't have the temptation to support the horn on my thumb anymore.  I say "anymore" because before I made the support I did find myself partially supporting the horn via the trigger.

Another thought has me asking:
How much force are some people applying when operating the trigger?  I'm pretty sure it doesn't need a death grip but some people don't realise their own strength AND when playing, particularly if one is in a stressful situation like an audition, how many of us unconsciously apply excessive force when operating the trigger?

I would as the OP this:
Did the mount fail when operating the trigger or when playing straight?
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SethMatrix

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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2015, 04:44PM »

Gonna sidetrack a little here:This is an interesting point.  I personally do not like having my thumb "in front" of the main bell brace because I use the brace to help support the horn.  Now, I appreciate that not everyone agrees with me about that, but I think everyone would agree that trombone ergonomics are petty awful in general...

Which brings me to this thought:
is the fragility that some are finding with this saddle mounting a result of them partially supporting the horn via the trigger?  I note that there are two vectors in play here:
1) operating the trigger as designed results in largely tension being applied to the joint.
2) supporting the horn by the trigger results in largely sheer forces being applied to the joint.

The "seat of the pants engineer" in me expects the sheer strength of the mounting to be somewhat greater than the tension strength, but does anyone actually know if this is correct in this context?

Like Tim I have a Bach (one of my horns is a 42A) and I've never had this problem, but then I also cobbled together a "thumb support" (a bit like the Greenhoe one) so I didn't have the temptation to support the horn on my thumb anymore.  I say "anymore" because before I made the support I did find myself partially supporting the horn via the trigger.

Another thought has me asking:
How much force are some people applying when operating the trigger?  I'm pretty sure it doesn't need a death grip but some people don't realise their own strength AND when playing, particularly if one is in a stressful situation like an audition, how many of us unconsciously apply excessive force when operating the trigger?

I would as the OP this:
Did the mount fail when operating the trigger or when playing straight?
It failed when I pressed the trigger. I was playing the Lebedev Concerto in one movement, went in for the low Eb on a fast pick and it popped off. A local repairman fixed it a couple hours ago. Only $20
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BGuttman
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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2015, 08:00PM »

Lawrie, you have explained why I love my King 7B (an older one).  I can support it on the bell brace:

(sorry the picture is sideways)



Incidentally, I had the saddle for the F valve break on me once too.  I have no idea why, but it gave out when I pressed the trigger.
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Bruce Guttman
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Lawrie

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« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2015, 11:21PM »

It failed when I pressed the trigger. I was playing the Lebedev Concerto in one movement, went in for the low Eb on a fast pick and it popped off. A local repairman fixed it a couple hours ago. Only $20
Thanks Seth,
I wonder, you said a "fast pickup"...  Might this have resulted in using somewhat more that usual force operating the trigger to be "fast"?

It seems to me that a failure of this type is something that occurs over time, with a progressive weakening of the joint occurring until it just pops off.

It looks like root causes could be one, or a combination, of several:
  • Wrong solder (not strong enough for the function required)
  • Poor soldering technique (this includes not properly cleaning or fluxing the joint)
  • Incompatible materials (E.G. Benn's mention of Silica Bronze saddles and soft solder)
  • Too small a footprint in the area being soldered
  • probably lots of other things I haven't thought of/mentioned
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