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Author Topic: Religion Matters: Take 3  (Read 42758 times)
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drizabone
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« Reply #20 on: Aug 11, 2015, 02:22PM »

I'm in.

A couple of suggestions:
- use a standard translation as a reference
   - otherwise it could be confusing for people that aren't familiar with there being different transalations
   - you can always refer to another translation in specific cases if you want to
- use a modern translation
  - we don't want to have to explain "old english" at the same time as the bible text
  -  from a protestant point of view The NIV 2011 is pretty good in terms of accuracy and is very understandable
  -  you can read it online at https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-International-Version-NIV-Bible/
  - bible gateway has a whole stack of versions if you want to use another - or compare
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MoominDave

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« Reply #21 on: Aug 11, 2015, 02:47PM »

I've done it once, it was a couple years of effort, and while I think we enjoyed it it was fatiguing after a while.  I'm not sure I'm up for it again.  Let me think on it. 

How did it work out in practice? How long a summary was expected, and how much detail? How many study questions, and of what level of profundity? How much debate did each chapter spark?
« Last Edit: Aug 12, 2015, 01:23AM by MoominDave » Logged

Dave Taylor

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« Reply #22 on: Aug 11, 2015, 06:08PM »


Perhaps when we finish the Bible, we can start on the Koran... Or maybe we should cover that first?

I vote for something more relevant to our audience such as "The God Delusion" as the second book.  And I'm being serious, as it will give us a chance to understand the "other side".  I'd like to discuss a book that sets out what you do believe in, but then atheists are characterised by what they don't believe in rather than by what they do belive in, so that might not be possible.

But I think we're getting a bit ahead of us when we can't even get around to talking about the first book on our list.
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MoominDave

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« Reply #23 on: Aug 12, 2015, 01:17AM »

Like when we started a weight-loss regime in our house, and one of the first comments was "We must take care not to get too thin"...

Fair point though. If we ever get there, we'll have a good and careful think about what to approach afterwards. I suggested the Koran/Quran as it's a book I've occasionally dipped into, but never taken the time to inspect in any detail - and I'd be intrigued to see how it does and doesn't line up with the Christian Bible, and with which parts. It is however, so far as I can tell from what I've seen, a less easy read than the Christian Bible...

There is also enough sacred material here to keep us going for decades, should we choose to, even in the proposed skimming-the-surface vein...
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« Reply #24 on: Aug 12, 2015, 02:11AM »

I'd kinda like to kick things off with Steven Pinker's summary of the Old Testament from The Better Angels of Our Nature--kind of as an intro to the process. It may be better put to use as a discussion topic in Religion Matters 3.0 though. Anyone familiar with it? If so, please feel free to share your thoughts on these idears.

I don't know this book, and don't know how long this is. How about you post it here, and I link to it in the kick-off post for the new thread?
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« Reply #25 on: Aug 12, 2015, 02:44AM »

In the American context Biblical translations are also hot button issues.

In my experience, I find my translations of both Greek and Hebrew ending up somewhere between the following translations:
- New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
- New American Bible (NAB)
- New American Bible Updated (NAU)

As part of my sermon prep I look a multiple translations as well as the original text.  I note the differences between the translations then go to the original text and look at the original word in question.

Another truth is that each translation has a bias.  Some work to do a "word for word" translation and others work to make the text more readable.  Others contain a theological bias based on who was involved in the translation. 

As for a good resource that offers a several translations is http://bible.oremus.org

I'm in.

A couple of suggestions:
- use a standard translation as a reference
   - otherwise it could be confusing for people that aren't familiar with there being different transalations
   - you can always refer to another translation in specific cases if you want to
- use a modern translation
  - we don't want to have to explain "old english" at the same time as the bible text
  -  from a protestant point of view The NIV 2011 is pretty good in terms of accuracy and is very understandable
  -  you can read it online at https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-International-Version-NIV-Bible/
  - bible gateway has a whole stack of versions if you want to use another - or compare

So the question of which version to pick is one we'd better not get too far wrong. To my mind, the version picked needs to fulfil three broad criteria:

i) To have an easily navigable online version;
ii) To be a relatively modern and readable version of the text, with respected scholarship;
iii) To have widespread basic approval within the various pieces of the Western Christian world.

That Bible Gateway website is very nice - just click on it, and there you are without fuss, all sorts of different versions of every chapter. The kind of organised information-sharing thing that the internet was invented for.

The NIV is what I recall was used when my Mother attended a church - I have a copy at home, bearing the label "Presented to David Taylor for good attendance, 1991"(!). It lives on a shelf next to the Koran, the Edda, and a book about Celtic origin ideas.

However, my inclination is to go with Travis's recommendation, and plump for the NRSV, which is described on the same site as having "received the widest acclaim and broadest support from academics and church leaders of any modern English translation." Browsing random chapters, the prose style seems pleasant, and the description matches the criteria well. Any objections to going with the NRSV?
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Dave Taylor

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« Reply #26 on: Aug 12, 2015, 04:48AM »

This Jesus & Mo is actually pretty generic--no need for skin of any real thickness--not a side-splitter, but amusing:
 
Jesus:    I'm getting sick of whataboutery.
Mo:       Whataboutery?
Jesus:    It's the fallacy of relative privation. Whenever somebody points out a problem, someone will try to dismiss it
            by saying that much bigger problems exist, so the initial problem isn't worth discussing.
            "What about extremism?" "What about Israel?" "What about the West?" It's an impediment to discussion, and it
            gets on my nerves.
            What do you think, Mo?
Mo:       I think there are more important things to worry about than whataboutery.
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« Reply #27 on: Aug 12, 2015, 08:27AM »

This Jesus & Mo is actually pretty generic--no need for skin of any real thickness--not a side-splitter, but amusing:
Well, for things to change for the better, things would first need to change. Looks like that's already failing as the meaningless habits come back already.
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« Reply #28 on: Aug 12, 2015, 02:03PM »

FOR THE INFORMATION OF ALL

The destruction of the original thread.....

Bruce has been searching through the moderator action log and found that the culprit was...

ME  Eeek! Eeek! Eeek! Eeek! Eeek!

I was trying to send a warning to a member about TOU and needed to check that thread.

I was working from my phone in an area were phone and internet kept dropping. In my efforts, it seems I zapped the thread by mistake.

I am very sorry and apologise to all for the loss of  the history of debate.

Pure accident... no hidden agenda.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #29 on: Aug 12, 2015, 02:11PM »

FOR THE INFORMATION OF ALL
 
The destruction of the original thread.....
 
Bruce has been searching through the moderator action log and found that the culprit was...
 
ME  Eeek! Eeek! Eeek! Eeek! Eeek!
 
I was trying to send a warning to a member about TOU and needed to check that thread.
 
I was working from my phone in an area were phone and internet kept dropping. In my efforts, it seems I zapped the thread by mistake.
 
I am very sorry and apologise to all for the loss of  the history of debate.
 
Pure accident... no hidden agenda.
 
Chris Stearn

Good to hear, man!
 
Still a bummer of course, but good to hear.
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« Reply #30 on: Aug 12, 2015, 02:21PM »

FOR THE INFORMATION OF ALL

The destruction of the original thread.....

Bruce has been searching through the moderator action log and found that the culprit was...

ME  Eeek! Eeek! Eeek! Eeek! Eeek!

I was trying to send a warning to a member about TOU and needed to check that thread.

I was working from my phone in an area were phone and internet kept dropping. In my efforts, it seems I zapped the thread by mistake.

I am very sorry and apologise to all for the loss of  the history of debate.

Pure accident... no hidden agenda.

Chris Stearn

Ah Chris, that solves the mystery. Glad to hear it was more innocent than it felt. Thanks all for the detective work.

Your punishment is that your post here means that you are now subscribed to this thread forevermore...
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Dave Taylor

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« Reply #31 on: Aug 12, 2015, 02:49PM »

Nothing is ever lost...Check Hillary's server.  :D
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Trav1s
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« Reply #32 on: Aug 12, 2015, 04:05PM »

Travis, are you refering to the NAB(a Catholic translation with the entire bible) or the NASB (a Protestant version with the deuterocanonical books missing?)  I ask because there is no NABU(pdatated)

My bad as I got things confused. 

Quote
Version ID: NAU
Description: New American Standard Bible with Codes (1995)
Language: English
Number of Books: 66
Number of Chapters: 1189
Number of Verses: 31103
Number of Blank Verses: 0
Total Number of Words: 775306
Number of Unique Words: 14348
Current Verse: 18440
Database Type: Bible Text Version
Books: Gen Exo Lev Num Deu Jos Jdg Rut 1Sa 2Sa 1Ki 2Ki 1Ch 2Ch Ezr Neh Est Job Psa Pro Ecc Sol Isa Jer Lam Eze Dan Hos Joe Amo Oba Jon Mic Nah Hab Zep Hag Zec Mal Mat Mar Luk Joh Act Rom 1Co 2Co Gal Eph Phi Col 1Th 2Th 1Ti 2Ti Tit Phm Heb Jam 1Pe 2Pe 1Jo 2Jo 3Jo Jud Rev

Copyright and Source Information:

NAS/NAU - The New American Standard Bible NASB (NAS[1977] and NAU[1995]), Copyright 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1988, 1995, and La Biblia de Las Americas, Copyright 1986, both by The Lockman Foundation.  All rights reserved.      This excellent translation is an updated edition of the ASV [see above], with the entire Bible completed in 1971.  Both the 1977 NASB English Bible translation and the 1995 New American Standard Bible 1995 Update are included as separate literal Bible texts.      PERMISSION TO QUOTE:  The text of the New American Standard Bible may be quoted and/or reprinted up to and inclusive of two hundred (200) verses without express written permission of The Lockman Foundation, providing the verses do not amount to a complete book of the Bible nor do the verses quoted account for more than 10% of the total work in which they are quoted.   Notice of copyright must appear on the title or copyright page of the work as follows:  Scripture taken from the NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE, Copyright The Lockman Foundation 1960,1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1988, 1995. Used by permission. When quotations from the NASB text are used in not-for-resale media, such as church bulletins, orders of service, posters, transparencies or similar media, the abbreviation (NASB) may be used at the end of the quotation (instead of the above copyright notice). Quotations and/or reprints in excess of the above limitations, or other permission requests, must be directed to and approved in writing by The Lockman Foundation. This permission to quote is limited to material which is wholly manufactured in compliance with the provisions of the copyright laws of the United States of America and all applicable international conventions and treaties.
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« Reply #33 on: Aug 12, 2015, 07:08PM »

I would be willing to take part in this as long as we remember that the chapter divisions don't always fit with the clear subject breaks in some cases.  They were added much later than when the texts were written-- the first chapter divisions were in the 13th century while the verse divisions came in the 16th. The joke that is sometimes told is that the chapter and verse divisions were done by someone on horseback and sometimes happened when the horse stumbled. :)

As far as translations, while I could live with the NRSV, it is not my preference because it is not held in high regard in more conservative circles because at a number of significant places in an attempt to be gender neutral, it translates texts inaccurately.  In other words there is an element of political correctness that plays into the translation philosophy that is unnecessary.

The NIV is not my first choice, but it would probably be quite workable and until very recently was the best selling modern English translation of the Bible. It follows what is known as dynamic equivalent translation philosophy.

My first choice would be the English Standard Version (ESV), which is an updating of the original Revised Standard Version.  After the NIV and the King James Vesion it is the best seller.  It follows what is known as an essentially literal translation philosophy.

I can explain the difference between these 2 translation philosophies if anyone wants to know.

Here's a link to the ESV:

 https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/English-Standard-Version-ESV-Bible/
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« Reply #34 on: Aug 12, 2015, 07:28PM »

I too would prefer the NIV 2011 or the ESV.

But I would work with the RSV if that was the groups preference
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« Reply #35 on: Aug 13, 2015, 08:44AM »

How about the NEV? that one would work for everyone on here. ((NEV==New Editable Version))
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« Reply #36 on: Aug 13, 2015, 08:50AM »

Shame we don't have anyone called Neville here. Do you fancy taking a turn when we've got this going? Looks like we'll launch it the week after next, when I get back from holiday.
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« Reply #37 on: Aug 13, 2015, 02:22PM »

in theory - I'm on board with a structured bible discussion. Wondering if it follows the "bible in a year" path or can it be more a scheduled choice reading? By choice reading I mean where there are multiple books that speak to the same subject, or books where one leads or foreshadows the next, or .... I don't have access to those types of resources, unfortunately. 
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« Reply #38 on: Aug 13, 2015, 02:32PM »

How about the NEV? that one would work for everyone on here. ((NEV==New Editable Version))

You being cheeky? Naughty! Or are you referring the the New European Version, which seems to be christadelphian - I wasn't aware that we had any of that persuasion here, so would probably not be interested.
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« Reply #39 on: Aug 13, 2015, 02:40PM »

I'm going to use whatever bible I have lying around (usually the new Jerusalem bible) or an online reading format.

This link may also prove helpful if there is a significant difference in versions...

http://www.biblestudytools.com/compare-translations/

 
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There is some fiction in your truth, and some truth in your fiction. To know the truth, you must risk everything. - Neo
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