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Author Topic: Religion Matters: Take 3  (Read 39188 times)
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timothy42b
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« Reply #800 on: Jul 03, 2017, 04:17PM »

And don't forget Victor Frankl's classic about a prisoner of war camp.

He talked about decent and indecent men, and noted many acted morally under conditions of extreme privation (which should refute Maslow's claims convincingly). 
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« Reply #801 on: Jul 05, 2017, 05:04AM »

And don't forget Victor Frankl's classic about a prisoner of war camp.
 
He talked about decent and indecent men, and noted many acted morally under conditions of extreme privation (which should refute Maslow's claims convincingly).

My personal experience serves that purpose as well--both my own behavior and that of others I've witnessed. Can't argue that strong consciences in difficult situations isn't at least a bit unusual though, but that actually has a whole lot to do without our deeply misunderstood religious nature (proactive/invested misunderstanding being heavily involved, I'd say).
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« Reply #802 on: Jul 07, 2017, 05:27AM »

This could be pretty huge!
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« Reply #803 on: Jul 07, 2017, 03:17PM »

I wish them well and pray for their safety
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« Reply #804 on: Jul 08, 2017, 11:02AM »

It's taken about 1,400 years for Islam to allow women to be taught the religious texts.

At least the Christians were quicker on the draw in this respect.

Tertullian: "It is not permitted to a woman to speak in church. Neither may she teach, baptize, offer, nor claim for herself any function proper to a man, least of all the sacerdotal office."

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« Reply #805 on: Jul 08, 2017, 12:35PM »

It's taken about 1,400 years for Islam to allow women to be taught the religious texts.

At least the Christians were quicker on the draw in this respect.

Tertullian: "It is not permitted to a woman to speak in church. Neither may she teach, baptize, offer, nor claim for herself any function proper to a man, least of all the sacerdotal office."


And therefore.......What?
In all of history women have been treated this way and many other ways that are unwarranted.  Now we are evolving.
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« Reply #806 on: Jul 08, 2017, 01:17PM »

And therefore.......What?


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Now we are evolving.
^^^ ... and therefore that.
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« Reply #807 on: Jul 08, 2017, 11:54PM »

In all of history women have been treated this way and many other ways that are unwarranted.  Now we are evolving.

Are you talking about evolving in a Darwinian sense?  If so you'll need to explain what you mean and what evidence there is?
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« Reply #808 on: Jul 09, 2017, 02:07AM »

Are you talking about evolving in a Darwinian sense?  If so you'll need to explain what you mean and what evidence there is?

Probably not in a strictly Darwinian sense. Idiots who oppress women still reproduce quite effectively.
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« Reply #809 on: Jul 09, 2017, 08:03AM »

Probably not in a strictly Darwinian sense. Idiots who oppress women still reproduce quite effectively.
Not in any way "in the Darwinian sense".
Women are not oppressed nearly as much as even 100 years ago at least in Westernsociety.
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« Reply #810 on: Jul 09, 2017, 10:44AM »

Not in any way "in the Darwinian sense".
Women are not oppressed nearly as much as even 100 years ago at least in Westernsociety.

My point is that isn't evolution, but just social progress.
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« Reply #811 on: Jul 11, 2017, 05:38AM »

This one certainly raises some eyebrows, but I'd also guess it raises plenty among Catholics as well (whether or not it's doctrinaire--often that a given notion is doctrinaire is used to pretend it's not also a bit incredulous even if only in some innocuous way).
 
 --
 
Quite worth noting, I think:
Something that endeared me immediately to the local UU congregation--the first time my wife and I went to a service one of the church leaders read a mock UU statement making fun of their extreme inclusiveness and sensitivity to diversity, and the congregation enjoyed this highly self-deprecating humor immensely. It says a lot about how well grounded their beliefs are--how assured they are about them. They're all about social activism, such as feeding, clothing and housing the poor, and advocating for just on behalf of the weak and all that sort of thing--practices which may be less or comparably more familiar to various religious congregations. It's pretty hard to raise any valid ethical issues or significant criticisms with that sort of thinking and behavior, or to argue it's not in line with what the whole Jesus thing is all about. Seems when a given version or instance of a given religion is short on that sort of thing there's a lot more of the wrong kind of sensitivity--defensive/self-serving sensitivity rather than sensitivity to inclusion and service and such ... the attractive and repulsive sides of the same magnetic coin. Seems there's a line or two about that in the Bible, as I recall.
 
My wife's Episcopalian church has a lot of this same attractive sincerity and self-assurance going on amongst its membership, as do many other churches of course. But there are also a lot of churches that don't.
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« Reply #812 on: Jul 14, 2017, 07:25PM »

or rolls some eyes
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« Reply #813 on: Jul 15, 2017, 08:09AM »

or rolls some eyes

Well ... yeah. I'd expect that to be the initial response from the large majority. In fact the immediate litmus would be about if the eyes are rolling, or if the jaws are working and the lips tightening and such.
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« Reply #814 on: Aug 08, 2017, 07:19PM »

Moved from the Bible thread (didn't realize it was in there at first--didn't have time to move it until now):
 
I get regular posts in my email from Joni Eareckson Tada.  She always has very profound thoughts about life from an orthodox Christian perspective.
 
In case some of you aren't aware of her situation, she has been a quadriplegic for over 50 years and also is a breast cancer survivor.
 
She wrote this on the question of fairness.  It seemed appropriate in light of the discussion of this thread.
 
What's Fair?
by Joni Eareckson Tada


"Who has understood the mind of the Lord, or instructed him as his counselor? Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?"         
Isaiah 40:13-14
 
Have you ever walked into a room halfway through someone else's argument and been asked for your opinion? It's impossible to respond. You don't have all the facts. You don't fully appreciate both sides of the argument and, therefore, you can't give a just verdict.
 
Trying to discern whether or not God is fair in any given situation is much like walking into a room halfway through someone else's argument. For one thing, you don't have all the facts, and you won't have them until you get to the other side of eternity. Besides, "fairness" is impossible to grasp because you are unequipped to appreciate the hidden purposes God has in mind.
Wow is that pretty much as far off the mark as you can get.
 
It's actually pretty amusing in a way--a demonstration of how easily apologists (of all stripes) can unrecognizably reshape the criticism they presume to address in order to make it addressable in a comfortable manner. It also demonstrates the fact that religious/apologetic thinking encourages, nurtures and defends bias rather than trying to correct or defeat it.
 
Reminds me of a quaint little scene in a popular movie.
 
The charge that's usually being leveled when this comes up is not so well described by a discussion featuring some disagreement--more like an absolutely one-sided "fight" with violently mutilated bodies of men, women and children piled all over a room coated with blood, and the killer is in the act, claiming credit and threatening to keep inflicting victims with horrible fatal diseases and maiming afflictions and torturing and killing if everyone doesn't do exactly what he wants ... because he loves them.
 
Slightly different scenario ...
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« Reply #815 on: Aug 17, 2017, 05:15PM »

Hey its gone quiet all of a sudden.  Did the party go somewhere else?
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« Reply #816 on: Aug 22, 2017, 10:41PM »

It depends on the algebra.  It's not often that humans get to be transcendent, but mathematics is a place where this can happen.  1+1=2 is a product of the algebra (notice that Arabic word in there?) chosen for common usage.  Even just changing the base of the number system will give you 1+1=10.  Just an accident of place and time.  

I think its more likely related to the number of fingers you have.

And anyway 1+1 is a sum not a product. :)

Quote
Just like the religion a lot of folks hold so dearly to.  If John, Martin, Dave, Dusty and Bob were brought up in Iran they would be Muslim, not Christian.  If in India, most likely Hindu.  If Utah, most likely Mormon.  Don't know

Here's an interesting question ... what does fate have to say about faith?

Faith, culture and location are dependent on grace not fate.  In my WV.
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« Reply #817 on: Aug 23, 2017, 04:11AM »

Faith, culture and location are dependent on grace not fate.  In my WV.

 ... I'd just stick with the vagaries of social geography (i.e. nature).
 
If we're careless about adding noise from our own baggage we may slip up and create a god or something, and from there it's all confusion and division and tribalism and taxes.
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« Reply #818 on: Sep 11, 2017, 02:11PM »

Reply moved from the Read Da Book topic:
 
Dave, it's not a lack of confidence of the compellingness of the Christian faith, but a lack of confidence in the sinful hearts of those who once professed to believe it, but turn away.  Jeremiah 17:9 says that the heart is deceitful above all things.  From a Christian POV it is not at all surprising that some turn away, not because the faith isn't attractive-- although there are "unattractive" parts such as the fact that believers will be persecuted, scorned etc-- but because the deceitful natural human heart wrongly believes that the other options seem better or easier, etc.  We humans are not starting from a neutral POV, but a  POV that is naturally biased against the truth of God and only God's grace can change our hearts, enlighten our minds, etc. so that the true compelling beauty of God's truth-- and it really is compelling in the end-- will be seen in its full beauty. The culpable sin is that the natural human rejects such truth that really is compelling and our not finding it so is our own sinful faults.
 
Remember that Jesus spoke about the narrow path vs. the wide path.  He spoke about men loving darkness rather than light, etc.  Christians are not at all surprised when many prefer their own futile self-deceptions over the truth.  Those of of who know that we only believe the truth because of divine grace enlightening us, don't gloat over this, but actually are saddened and pray for those who reject the truth because apart from divine intervention we would be just as blind to the truth.
Exactly. Perceived arrogance of believers by non believers is actually arrogance itself. IMO
But is that just a satisfying notion, or can you flesh it out and explain the epistemic basis behind why you think that?
Simple. You don't know what you don't know and neither do I. To act like you do is arrogant. We have faith and you guys have,"Prove it." Capisce'?
So you humbly accept the knowledge provided by faith that you wouldn't otherwise have, and for others to fail to accept that same faith (by which they would of course have the same knowledge rather than having to accept their uncertainty), is arrogant.
 --
Please pardon the arrogance of my uncertainty which imposes upon me the burden of personal responsibility for ensuring I really do know what I claim to know and thus raises a question here, but why do so many citing faith as the basis for their certainty disagree so much with the certainties your faith provides you with? How do you ferret that out? Or do you just rest on your faith-based certainty and leave it there?
You glossed over the key words.
No, you're just seeing what you want to see, and what you see as corrections on your part are actually confirmations.
 
Now, since this is a discussion I'm not going to just leave it at that claim. Next you'll find the explanation as to why I think that's the case. Because this is a discussion forum rather than just a choose up sides and hurl empty slogans and opinions at each other forum. This isn't a Trump campaign in here (not to suggest you're a Trump fan--I kinda doubt that's the case--you were a fan of a far more rational and far more qualified and far more competent candidate, because of which who had no chance of being nominated by the current GOP).
 
I have faith. I do not have all the knowledge And I don't pretend that I do.
Right. No one argued or even implied in any way, shape or form that you claim to be omniscient (that's what having "all the knowledge" means. As I posted you claim to have "the knowledge provided by faith that you wouldn't otherwise have".
 
Or are you saying you don't claim to know God exists (the specific claim at issue)?
 
You guys have no faith and also don't have all the knowledge yet you pretend to know there is no God. Because you don't really know. You can't. And neither can I. Hence faith vs knowledge
You also claim, as I posted, that "for others to fail to accept that same faith is arrogant".
 
Also, do you not claim that those who have faith (or True Faith at least) must come to more or less the same position on God that you do (i.e. faith, true faith, makes Christians)?
 
 --
 
One actual issue I see here is that despite repeated corrections you still choose to believe atheism is about claiming to know there are no gods (and you're using an extreme, ad hoc standard for knowing) rather than the fact that theism and atheism are specifically about belief, while gnosticism and agnosticism are about knowledge (specifically whether we can or can't know certain things, usually and in this case that being whether or not any gods exist). Of course it's very hard to argue the actual position of most atheists is arrogant, and that's just not satisfying, or affirming.
 
My personal claim (tentative and not required by atheism) is that a god people actually worship (or at least believe in and/or revere), rather than a god constructed for apologetics, is an incoherent concept, with the possible exception of deism.
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« Reply #819 on: Sep 11, 2017, 05:06PM »

Reply moved from the Read Da Book topic:
 Exactly. Perceived arrogance of believers by non believers is actually arrogance itself. IMOBut is that just a satisfying notion, or can you flesh it out and explain the epistemic basis behind why you think that?Simple. You don't know what you don't know and neither do I. To act like you do is arrogant. We have faith and you guys have,"Prove it." Capisce'?So you humbly accept the knowledge provided by faith that you wouldn't otherwise have, and for others to fail to accept that same faith (by which they would of course have the same knowledge rather than having to accept their uncertainty), is arrogant.
 --
Please pardon the arrogance of my uncertainty which imposes upon me the burden of personal responsibility for ensuring I really do know what I claim to know and thus raises a question here, but why do so many citing faith as the basis for their certainty disagree so much with the certainties your faith provides you with? How do you ferret that out? Or do you just rest on your faith-based certainty and leave it there?You glossed over the key words.
No, you're just seeing what you want to see, and what you see as corrections on your part are actually confirmations.
 
Now, since this is a discussion I'm not going to just leave it at that claim. Next you'll find the explanation as to why I think that's the case. Because this is a discussion forum rather than just a choose up sides and hurl empty slogans and opinions at each other forum. This isn't a Trump campaign in here (not to suggest you're a Trump fan--I kinda doubt that's the case--you were a fan of a far more rational and far more qualified and far more competent candidate, because of which who had no chance of being nominated by the current GOP).
 Right. No one argued or even implied in any way, shape or form that you claim to be omniscient (that's what having "all the knowledge" means. As I posted you claim to have "the knowledge provided by faith that you wouldn't otherwise have".
 
Or are you saying you don't claim to know God exists (the specific claim at issue)?
 You also claim, as I posted, that "for others to fail to accept that same faith is arrogant".
 
Also, do you not claim that those who have faith (or True Faith at least) must come to more or less the same position on God that you do (i.e. faith, true faith, makes Christians)?
 
 --
 
One actual issue I see here is that despite repeated corrections you still choose to believe atheism is about claiming to know there are no gods (and you're using an extreme, ad hoc standard for knowing) rather than the fact that theism and atheism are specifically about belief, while gnosticism and agnosticism are about knowledge (specifically whether we can or can't know certain things, usually and in this case that being whether or not any gods exist). Of course it's very hard to argue the actual position of most atheists is arrogant, and that's just not satisfying, or affirming.
 
My personal claim (tentative and not required by atheism) is that a god people actually worship (or at least believe in and/or revere), rather than a god constructed for apologetics, is an incoherent concept, with the possible exception of deism.
You are always off to a bad start in a conversation when you start with an analysis.(ie No, you see what you want to see.) No. I see exactly what's there.
I believe God exists. I don't know if he exists. faith.
So I'm saying I don't know and you guys are saying you know there is no God.  That's arrogance.

"Also, do you not claim that those who have faith (or True Faith at least) must come to more or less the same position on God that you do (i.e. faith, true faith, makes Christians)? "  No.

Ask Bill if he knows there is no God.
You don't think Christopher Hitchens was arrogant? He was very arrogant. I believe its very satisfying for militant atheists to see Christmas music banned from schools. Removal of creche's, etc. They celebrate it.

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity"
I don't see any wiggle room there.
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