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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatReligion(Moderator: bhcordova) TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
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timothy42b
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« Reply #2500 on: Jul 13, 2017, 04:49AM »

At the time there was.

I think the expression is meant to mean that everyone will know that it is YHWH who is God

Unless I'm misremembering, God is his title and YHWH is his name. 
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« Reply #2501 on: Jul 13, 2017, 02:22PM »

Yeah that's right.

YHWH is his name.

El = God tells us what he his.  The calls other named entities gods too, especially in Psalms.  eg Baal and idols, but they are false or not of the same order as YHWH.

So ISTM part of the reason YHWH is dispensing justice is so that everyone will know that He is God and that the god's that the nations worship aren't.
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« Reply #2502 on: Jul 13, 2017, 08:02PM »

Ezekiel 37 text

Highlights

 - God will bring Israel back to life

Summary

 - In a vision, God sets Ezekiel down in a valley full of dry bones. He asks Ezekiel if these bones can live, and Ezekiel replies, saying that only God himself knows.  - Right answer.
 - God tells Ezekiel to prophesy, telling the bones that they'll live, that the breath of God will enter them, causing them to put on sinews (tendons and ligaments) and flesh again.
 - So Ezekiel prophesies and the bones all rattle together, forming skeletons. They have flesh and muscle grow on them, forming complete human bodies, but they're still not alive, with no divine breath in them.
 - God tells Ezekiel to prophesy for the breath to enter the bodies, and when Ezekiel does so, they all come alive.
 - God explains that these are the bones of the House of Israel. The people believe that their fate is sealed and that there'll be no restoration of their kingdom and their land. But there will, and this is the meaning of the dry bones coming to life.
 - God says that he will put my Spirit within them, and they shall live, and will place them in their own land. Then they shall know that I am the Lord

 - God tells Ezekiel to take two sticks and make them into one stick (by binding them together).
 - He's supposed to write on one stick that it represents Judah, and on the other that it represents Joseph (or Ephraim) and the Israelites associated with it. (That kingdom had been long gone courtesy of the Assyrian conquest.)
 - God says the meaning of this is that these two peoples will be made into one. He will lead them both back into their lands, making them into a single kingdom.
 - This time they'll be obedient, observing all of his laws and giving up idol worship.
 - David will be their king, and they'll all have one ruler. They'll never leave the land again, and their children will inhabit it forever.
 - God will dwell with them, blessing them and making sure they multiply.



Questions and Observations

1) Hi Bill, this is God being good and gracious. 

2) He's still doing stuff so that people will know that he is Lord.  It seems pretty important to him.  I'll have to remember that.
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BillO
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« Reply #2503 on: Jul 14, 2017, 08:52AM »

1) Hi Bill, this is God being good and gracious. 
That's like saying that if I knock someone down viciously, then after some time come back and give them a hand up I'm being good and gracious.

I used to know a kid that got beaten pretty regularly by his dad for supposedly doing 'something' wrong.  Poor kid never knew what to expect.  A few hours after each beating his dad would try to make amends by being 'nice' to him.  Bring him to the pool, or out for an ice cream, etc...  It kind of sounds like that situation.  Back then I never thought of his dad as being good and gracious.  I despised him.

Quote
2) He's still doing stuff so that people will know that he is Lord.  It seems pretty important to him.  I'll have to remember that.
Yes, he still is.  Almost like his tactics are not working.  Hey, didn't God claim that bringing the Israelites down in the first place was going to show them who was boss?
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« Reply #2504 on: Jul 14, 2017, 06:40PM »

That's like saying that if I knock someone down viciously, then after some time come back and give them a hand up I'm being good and gracious.

I used to know a kid that got beaten pretty regularly by his dad for supposedly doing 'something' wrong.  Poor kid never knew what to expect.  A few hours after each beating his dad would try to make amends by being 'nice' to him.  Bring him to the pool, or out for an ice cream, etc...  It kind of sounds like that situation.  Back then I never thought of his dad as being good and gracious.  I despised him.

I don't think either of the situations you compare God too are the same.

God first chose Abraham and made a covenant to give him a land and riches, then provided for them in the famine, rescued them from slavery, and gave them a set of rules so that they would know was expected of them.  They agreed to the relationship, but then betrayed YHWH and went off after other gods and didn't look after each other.  God warned them and punished them according to their agreement.  Now despite the fact that they continually fail to keep the agreement he is going to change them so that they will want to stay faithful to him so that he will be able to bless them.

ISTM that you think I see what happened and make up a way to see it in a good light, while you're being objective.  Is that right?
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« Reply #2505 on: Jul 14, 2017, 08:54PM »

I don't think either of the situations you compare God too are the same.
The first one may have been a stretch.

Quote
God first chose Abraham and made a covenant to give him a land and riches, then provided for them in the famine, rescued them from slavery, and gave them a set of rules so that they would know was expected of them.  They agreed to the relationship, but then betrayed YHWH and went off after other gods and didn't look after each other.  God warned them and punished them according to their agreement.  Now despite the fact that they continually fail to keep the agreement he is going to change them so that they will want to stay faithful to him so that he will be able to bless them.
How is this substantially different than the implied covenant between a father and his child?  Just a bit of news though, they (and I include Christians, Jews and Muslims) are still not keeping the faith.

Quote
ISTM that you think I see what happened and make up a way to see it in a good light, while you're being objective.  Is that right?
Not at all Martin.  I am no more objective than you are with respect to religion.  Forgive me if I made that impression - it's just no so.

I'd have to be Larry Ellison to be that hubristic (is that a word?).

You don't really think that us science nerds are all-in on anything, do you?  That goes against everything we stand for.  Which brings up the point that the only thing we really stand for is consistency.  And what I mean by that is that any answers worth their salt must be self consistent.  The truth is I'm just all-out on religion and God which are anything but self consistent (no faith here).  I don't pretend to know all the answers by a long shot, but I'm pretty sure which answers don't cut muster with me.
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« Reply #2506 on: Jul 14, 2017, 11:46PM »

The first one may have been a stretch.
How is this substantially different than the implied covenant between a father and his child?  Just a bit of news though, they (and I include Christians, Jews and Muslims) are still not keeping the faith.

I would see the difference being that Israel accepted a specified covenant: they would obey the set law and God would bless them.
The situation between the farther and child is different in that: the child never got to choose to enter the relationship and the father makes up the rules as he goes.

Quote

Not at all Martin.  I am no more objective than you are with respect to religion.  Forgive me if I made that impression - it's just no so.

I'd have to be Larry Ellison to be that hubristic (is that a word?).

You don't really think that us science nerds are all-in on anything, do you?  That goes against everything we stand for.  Which brings up the point that the only thing we really stand for is consistency.  And what I mean by that is that any answers worth their salt must be self consistent.  The truth is I'm just all-out on religion and God which are anything but self consistent (no faith here).  I don't pretend to know all the answers by a long shot, but I'm pretty sure which answers don't cut muster with me.

ok that's good to know.  I agree with you and try to maintain self-consistency. 

I see we differ on the self-consistency of the christian worldview though.
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« Reply #2507 on: Jul 16, 2017, 08:46PM »

Ezekiel 38 text
Ezekiel 39 text

Highlights

 - God v Gog

Summary

Chapter 38
 - God orders Ezekiel to prophesy against some fearsome ruler named Gog, who rules over the mysterious land of Magog and is chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.
 - When Gog goes on the march with a massive army, God's going to put a hook in his mouth and lead the whole army back where it came from.
 - That includes all the armies that will side with Gog, including Persia, Ethiopia, Put, Gomer, and people from the distant north.
 - God predicts that, in future years, Gog will lead armies against the restored nation of Israel.
 - Gog's armies will come like a storm or a cloud covering the land, after Gog is evilly inspired to invade and plunder the defenseless towns in the land—provoking other nations like Sheba, Dedan, and Tarshish (in addition to Israel).
 - God will bring Gog out of the far north to invade Israel, but only in order to demonstrate his power and holiness against Gog.
 - When Gog invades, he'll encounter the wrath of God in full force.
 - The birds, fish, and animals will all tremble and quake at the vengeful presence of God.
 - All the humans will be afraid too, as cliffs and walls and mountains tumble down.
 - Everyone's swords will be against Gog, and God will send down pestilence, torrential rain, fire, and sulfur.
 - All the nations will see God's holiness and greatness.

Chapter 39
 - God picks up where he left off about Gog.
 - He's going to lead Gog into invading Israel, and then destroy Gog and make his armies food for birds.
 - God's going to send fire against Gog, and also against the people who live in the coastlands.
 - He'll make sure Israel reveres his holy name and that it isn't profaned anymore. All the nations will know that he's God.
 - The people of Israel will make fires from the dropped weapons of Gog's armies for seven years. They won't need to cut down trees for wood, they'll just use the plunder.
 - Gog and his horde will be buried in a place called the Valley of Travelers in Israel, which will be aptly renamed "The Horde of Gog."
 - It'll take the House of Israel seven months to bury all the corpses from the invading armies. Whenever someone locates a dead guy's bone, they'll mark it for pick-up and burial.
 - God instructs Ezekiel to call all the wild animals and birds to come and have a great feast: devouring the dead bodies of the invaders.
 - They'll gorge themselves on fat and get drunk on blood.
 - This is how God will display his power and glory to the nations of the world.
 - Carrion birds seem to be doing pretty well in the Book of Ezekiel.
 - The chapter ends with God promising again to restore Israel and Judah.
 - God hid his face from them and let them get attacked and sent into captivity for a while.
 - But now, he's ready to restore them. They'll forget their shame and treachery, and God won't leave anyone behind.
 - He'll pour out his spirit on them, and they'll know that he's God.


Questions and Observations

1) I have no idea who Gog is or where Magog is.  I think that its still future. But I'm sure you can find articles on the Web from people who KNOW.

2) Its apparently hebrew poetry, which "is fond of repetition and delights to revert to previous statements and enlarge on them, even though the result is to destroy all sense of consecutive arrangement."

3) My concentrated summary:
  - God's people will be attacked
  - God will defeat them all by himself: his people are in the naughty corner
  - God's people will get to plunder and clean up
  - God will restore his people and make everything right.
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« Reply #2508 on: Jul 18, 2017, 04:16PM »

Ezekiel 40 text
Ezekiel 41 text
Ezekiel 42 text
Ezekiel 43 text
Ezekiel 44 text
Ezekiel 45 text
Ezekiel 46 text
Ezekiel 47 text
Ezekiel 48 text

Highlights

 - Israel and the Temple restored: God returns

Summary

 - In the twenty-fifth year of the exile, in a vision God takes Ezekiel to Jerusalem, near the site of the now ruined Temple.
 - He sits Ezekiel on a high mountain, and a guy who looks like he's made of bronze shows up.
 - Bronze dude has a linen cord and a measuring reed. He tells Ezekiel to remember everything he's about to show him.
 - He launches into describing and visually revealing the structure of the new Temple complex. He provides detailed measurements - all measured in cubits.

 - the Ezekiel sees and hears God returning to the temple.
 - God announces that he will rein forever and his people will be faithful
 - God says that the purpose of all this is so that Israel will be ashamed of their sin and will repent and do the right thing
 - God gives Ezekiel detailed plans of the alter laws, ordinances and offerings for the temple.
 - The sons of Zadok get to take over the important priestly duties because the rest of the Levites were unfaithful
 - Property is allocated for the Lord and for all of Israel

 - A river will flow out of the temple to the Dead Sea which will become fresh.  It will give life abundant life
 - The extent of the land is specified so that it can be divided fairly among the tribes and immigrants (refugees?)

 - The name of the city will be "The Lord is There"


Questions and Observations

1) Sin has been dealt with in the previous chapter so God can restore his house, worship and people.and then return.  And everyone will live happily ever after.

2) They will only have a prince.  I take it that this is because God will be their king.

3) 25th year of exile: I think this is 10-12 years after Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.

4) The passage doesn't specify when all this will happen.

5) I guess that the detail of the temple is significant, but I think we can skip it for our summary.  But I won't be upset if anyone wants to fill it in.

6) Revelation uses a lot of the same imagery as Ezekiel.

7) This is not a commandment to build the temple. it just was.  The purpose of the passage/vision is: that Israel will be ashamed of their sin and will repent and do the right thing
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« Reply #2509 on: Jul 18, 2017, 04:34PM »

Ezekiel Summary Summary

 - Ezekiel is introduced to God in a fantastic vision where he is told he will be a watchman for Israel
 - Israel is judged for its idolatry and is exiled. 
 - God leaves the temple and it is destroyed
 - The nations are punished for worshipping false gods or thinking that they are bigger than God
 - Sin is dealt with
 - Israel is restored: the temple is rebuilt: God returns
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« Reply #2510 on: Jul 18, 2017, 05:05PM »

For anyone interested in understanding the temple theme throughout the Bible, especially how these chapters relate to the NT, Prof Greg Beale's work is the most comprehensive.  His views are not new-- they have been around since the early Christian church-- but he develops the theme the most of any scholar I know. 

He discusses it in his big work on biblical theology and in both smaller and larger monographs on the theme.

Here are some links:

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Biblical-Theology-Unfolding/dp/0801026970/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

https://www.amazon.com/Temple-Churchs-Mission-Biblical-Theology/dp/0830826181/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

https://www.amazon.com/God-Dwells-Among-Us-Expanding/dp/0830844147/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0830844147&pd_rd_r=TYH6CDQS605HRH17CM9K&pd_rd_w=6okyo&pd_rd_wg=l9EaY&psc=1&refRID=TYH6CDQS605HRH17CM9K

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« Reply #2511 on: Jul 19, 2017, 02:04AM »

Sorry I've been a bit absent Martin, I've not lost interest. The eye problems I mentioned last time I posted in this thread are still causing major issues, and there are associated fatigue and weakness symptoms that can be quite debilitating. Couple of things have been diagnosed, but my right eye vision is still all grey and fuzzy, making the concentration needed to do this justice a struggle. Optic neuritis is the eye diagnosis, for anyone that's interested.
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« Reply #2512 on: Jul 19, 2017, 02:16PM »

I hope and pray that you will recover and that there will be no lasting effects.

I'll carry on and you catch up when you can.

Leave a stub for your traditional end of book summary
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« Reply #2513 on: Jul 19, 2017, 08:29PM »

Let me 2nd what Martin has said.

So sorry that you've had to experience the eye problem.
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« Reply #2514 on: Jul 19, 2017, 09:07PM »

Let me third that! Praying for a successful recovery!
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« Reply #2515 on: Jul 19, 2017, 09:26PM »

I can empathize.  My right eye has been technically blind for some time, so I have an idea what your going through WRT the vision problems.

Rest, take it easy and stay away from those books for a while!!!  I know how hard that can be.

I have some concern as to the cause.  Let us know, if you wish, as to your progress.
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« Reply #2516 on: Jul 24, 2017, 02:51AM »

I'll start Daniel and hope Dave can join us soon.

I'll switch over to using another translation that contains the 3 apocyphal additions to the standard text.

- The Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children: Daniel 3:24–90 inserted between verses 23 and 24 (v. 24 becomes v. 91) in the Protestant canon, incorporated within the Fiery Furnace episode.
- Susanna and the Elders: before Daniel 1:1, a prologue in early Greek manuscripts; chapter 13 in the Vulgate
- Bel and the Dragon: after Daniel 12:13 in Greek, an epilogue; chapter 14 in the Vulgate

So lets get started.
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« Reply #2517 on: Jul 24, 2017, 03:22AM »

Daniel 1 text

Highlights

 - Daniel exiled but loyal

Summary

 - The story begins when Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon besieges Jerusalem. He breaks in, conquers the city, and captures the king and some of the sacred vessels dedicated to God in the temple.
 - After this, the king orders his palace master Ashpenaz to take some of the royal and well-educated Israelites and bring them back to Babylon to serve at the king's palace. Daniel and his friends Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah are among the people who get exiled to Babylon.
 - The palace master makes them cash in their Hebrew names for slick, new Babylonian ones. Daniel receives the name of "Belteshazzar"; Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah become respectively "Shadrach," "Meshach," and "Abednego."
 - Immediately, Daniel and his friends run into a problem. The king offers them daily rations of fine Babylonian cuisine and wine—but the food isn't kosher.
 - Fortunately, God has mercy on Daniel by making the palace master merciful. After some back and forth, he gives Daniel, Shadrach, and co. permission to do a trial run: they'll "go veg" for ten days, eating nothing but water and vegetables. If they don't look worse than everyone else after that time, they can consider the next step to take.
 - Of course, they end up looking better than the people who are eating the Babylonian the official food, and they're allowed to keep eating appropriate kosher and vegetarian meals.
 - Rather than collapsing from weakness, Daniel and his friends load up on wisdom, knowledge, and skills—all provided by God. Daniel also receives the ability to interpret dreams and visions, which will prove handy pretty soon.
 - When Nebuchadnezzar finally calls in the elite Israelites, after their training in Babylonian ways has been completed, he discovers that no one is wiser or more knowledgeable than Daniel and his friends. They're superior to all the Babylonian wise men, as well.
 - The book notes that Daniel remained in Nebuchadnezzar's court until the first year the Persian king Cyrus came to reign.


Questions and Observations

1) There are different ideas on when this book was written. 
Here are some sites that argue for an early date:
- https://bible.org/article/introduction-book-daniel
- http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2012/07/31/New-Light-on-the-Book-of-Daniel-from-the-Dead-Sea-Scrolls.aspx
And one arguing for a late date
- http://www.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/rel101/daniel.htm
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« Reply #2518 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:02PM »

Daniel 2 text


Highlights

 - Dreams

Summary

 - One night, King Nebuchadnezzar has a disturbing dream. It's so bad, that he's not able to get back to sleep.
 - He calls in his Babylonian magicians and enchanters and asks them for help, but he refuses to tell them what the dream actually was. They need to both tell him the dream he had and interpret it. He says that if they fail to come through, he's going to tear them "limb from limb" and lay their houses "in ruins." But if someone can tell him the dream and interpret it, they'll get showered with riches and rewards.
 - the wise men ask a second time for Nebuchadnezzar to tell them the dream so they can interpret it. The king says they're just trying to buy time, and they reply that no one can satisfy his insane demand, except for the gods. The king orders them all to be put to death.

 - Daniel and his friends are also arrested and slated to be executed—even though they apparently weren't present when the king had his initial freak-out and ordered every one dead. So, they don't know what's going on.
 - Daniel asks the king's head executioner Arioch why the king's death decree is falling on everyone so suddenly and without warning? Arioch fills him in on the situation.
 - So Daniel goes into Nebuchadnezzar and asks for a little time to discover the dream and relay the interpretation. King Neb agrees.
 - Daniel goes and tells Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego to ask God for help, and their prayers are effective. During the night, Daniel has a vision which reveals the dream and its interpretation.
 - Clearly relieved and happy, Daniel sings a song of praise to God, citing God's supreme power and knowledge, his control over even the destiny of kings. He thanks God for rescuing him from his scrape with death.
 - He goes to Arioch and tells him not to kill the wise men—the day is about to be saved.

 - Daniel is brought in before Nebuchadnezzar. When Nebuchadnezzar asks Daniel if he's able to help, Daniel gives all the credit to God, and says that all the wise men and enchanters are incapable of revealing these kinds of mysteries. He says that God gave Nebuchadnezzar his dream to show him what the future has in store.
 - Finally, Daniel launches into the actual description of the dream and its interpretation: King Nebuchadnezzar saw a giant, frightening statue of a human being—one with a head of gold, a chest and arms of silver, a stomach and thighs of bronze, lower legs made of iron, and feet made of mixed iron and clay.
 - Suddenly, he sees a stone—one not made by human hands—hit the statue on its weak part-clay, part-iron feet. The statue collapses into pieces and gets blown away by the wind. But the stone turns into a giant mountain that covers the entire earth.
 - Daniel goes on to interpret the dream: King Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold, the silver part of the statue is an inferior kingdom that will replace him, and the bronze part is a third kingdom that will "rule over the whole earth." The iron kingdom will be one that "crushes and smashes everything." The kingdom will get divided, symbolized by the clay and iron feet. It will be partly strong and partly fragile.
 - The stone thrown at the statue symbolizes the kingdom of God, which will utterly annihilate all these other kingdoms and permanently replace them, standing for all time.
Nebuchadnezzar is really impressed by this interpretation, bows down and worships Daniel and orders grain and incense offered to him. He also praises Daniel's God, saying he's clearly the "God of gods" for allowing Daniel to solve the king's puzzling dream.
 - The king gives Daniel a huge promotion, making him ruler of the province of Babylon and chief of all the Babylonian wise men.
 - Remembering his friends, Daniel gets Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego cushy positions, helping him oversee the everyday business of Babylon.
 - Daniel remains a servant at the king's court until Babylon falls.


Questions and Observations

1) So, which kingdoms are represented by the statue?  the first one is easy: Babylon, but what about the rest? Do they matter?  How do we tell? Can science answer this question?

2) And we wonder if there is any connection between this dream and Daniel's vision in chapter 7? Stay tuned...
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« Reply #2519 on: Yesterday at 02:00 PM »

The gold is the Babylonian Empire
The silver is the Medo/Persian Empire
The bronze is the Grecian Empire
The iron is the Roman Empire
The clay/iron is considered to be either the Divided Empire (Eastern & Western Roman Empire), the Holy Roman Empire, the Anti-Christ, the European Union, etc. (Take your pick)
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