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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatReligion(Moderator: bhcordova) TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
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drizabone
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« Reply #3340 on: Nov 12, 2017, 08:43PM »

How about OS? Old style prophet since he's not actually in the Old Testament/

Good point.  I've changed it to Old Testament Style prophet.

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Is there any Jewish tradition that acknowledges him as a prophet?

I don't know , but wouldn't think so seeing that John's purpose was to prepare the way for Jesus.
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drizabone
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« Reply #3341 on: Nov 14, 2017, 06:48PM »

While Martin's taking the time he needs to get things in order at home, let's continue with the thread. Martin can join in again when it feels right for him. We're all thinking of you.

Luke 2 text

Highlights

 - Birth and growth of Jesus

...

Questions and Observations

1) Quirinius did not come to local power until 6 AD. But also Luke 1 tells us that Jesus was born under Herod the Great, who died 4 BC. There seems a clear contradiction here.
2) A "Census of Quirinius" did occur, immediately after he took office in 6 AD, tying in to the contradiction in (1) above.
3) The idea of the whole of the near East all uniformly travelling to other towns on the same day is quite strikingly implausible. There are more objections to the sensibility of the census in this context than this; I'll quote the Wiki article: "There are major difficulties in accepting Luke's account: the census in fact took place in AD 6, ten years after Herod's death in 4 BCE; there was no single census of the entire empire under Augustus; no Roman census required people to travel from their own homes to those of distant ancestors; and the census of Judea would not have affected Joseph and his family, living in Galilee; most scholars have therefore concluded that the author of Luke's gospel made an error.". This seems a fairly major example of a gospel account needing harmonisation to make work - how do people feel about this one?

But these are contradictions only if the AD 6 census was the one Luke was talking about and if the translation in the footnotes in the ESV is not correct.  And there are a few other explanations that give me enough wiggle room to not be worried about wikipedia in this case - especially when it doesn't want to include opposing views.

Theres a discussion of the census in StackExchange "here" that goes into some of conservative explanations of whether the reference could be valid or not and also gives some reasons for why he included it, specifically to draw a contrast between the rebellious Judas mentioned in Acts 5:37 and the humble Joseph.

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4) There's no mention of the famous stable here. Although I imagine the likely location of a manger would be a stable?

No stable?!!!  shock horror!  The world is ending!

And where did the innkeeper go?! I'm sure I saw him!

And what about all those animals lowing away while the baby made no crying?

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5) Matthew's version of the birth makes no mention of the details that Luke's version has. Which is of course not necessarily a problem.
6) Where Matthew has wise men, Luke has shepherds in the same narrative place. Which is it?

No reason that it couldn't have been both.  eg

- Jesus born
- Angels sang to shepherds
- Shepherds visit new born baby who was lying in a manger
- Jesus taken to Jerusalem to be circumcised on 8th day
meanwhile Matthew reports at an unspecified date
- Wise men arrive in Jerusalem to ask where the king was born
- wise men directed to Bethlehem
- wise men visit the child Jesus in a house
- wise men sneak away without telling Herod
- Joseph takes Mary and Jesus to Egypt
- Herod decides to kill all boys under 2
- Herod dies
- Joseph returns to Nazareth with family

I note that Herod ordered the death of all boys under 2 and that Jesus was a child when the Wise Men visited him.  I infer that Matthew's account could have included events in Bethelem up to 2 years after the birth of Jesus.  Luke on the other hand tells us of events that happened at and soon after the birth.

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7) The circumcision episode is only in Luke.
8) Matthew also explicitly tells us that Jesus grew up in Nazareth.

As does Luke in vv39,40

Luke misses out Herod killing the Children and the Flight to Egypt.  These were part of the Wise Men arc that only Matther covered.

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10) Pretty slack parenting not to notice Jesus was missing on departure!

Definitely.  I could tell some similar stories too.

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11) If Joseph and Mary were already on board with the idea that their child was Yahweh's son, why were they puzzled when he talked about being in his father's house? It ought to have made perfect sense to them.

Says the man without kids! :)

Maybe the worry about a missing child overcame what they remembered of their angelic visits.  If Jesus acted like a normal kid up until then, then they would have probably treated him that way and normal life would have been: changing nappies, feeding, teething, falling over and crying for comfort, doing what normal kids do.  Its unlikely that Jesus went around with a halo on to remind everyone that he was special.

I can imagine how his siblings thought whenever the parents said "Why can't you be more like Joshua, he always does what he's told. He never leaves the lights on, or the front door open."

I'd love to know more about Jesus' childhood: how much did the parents know? what was Jesus like as a kid? ...
« Last Edit: Nov 15, 2017, 02:38PM by drizabone » Logged
robcat2075

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« Reply #3342 on: Nov 14, 2017, 06:55PM »

If they are just going to Bethlehem for the census, why do they stick around for two years?
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« Reply #3343 on: Nov 14, 2017, 08:58PM »



I'd love to know more about Jesus' childhood: how much did the parents know? what was Jesus like as a kid? ...


If you're not squeamish about a little heresy...

Infancy Gospel Of Thomas

The Arabic Infancy Gospel of the Savior
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #3344 on: Nov 14, 2017, 09:06PM »

If you're not squeamish about a little heresy...

Infancy Gospel Of Thomas

The Arabic Infancy Gospel of the Savior

They are lovely, aren't they?  But when you have to opportunity to select the 'history' you like, you are free to leave such things aside.
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« Reply #3345 on: Nov 15, 2017, 03:12AM »

who you talking about?
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #3346 on: Nov 15, 2017, 04:51AM »

If they are just going to Bethlehem for the census, why do they stick around for two years?

Maybe the traffic was a lot less congested and there was less Smaug than they'd heard?
 
Milder climate? Better produce?
 
Dodging a mob debt ... ?
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« Reply #3347 on: Nov 15, 2017, 06:56AM »

who you talking about?
You mean what?  I was talking about the overlooked gospels.
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« Reply #3348 on: Nov 15, 2017, 07:04AM »

If they are just going to Bethlehem for the census, why do they stick around for two years?
Did I miss something?  Where did it say they hung around for 2 years?

It says: "And when they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth."
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« Reply #3349 on: Nov 15, 2017, 08:28AM »

Did I miss something?  Where did it say they hung around for 2 years?

It says: "And when they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth."

Quote
I note that Herod ordered the death of all boys under 2 and that Jesus was a child when the Wise Men visited him.  I infer that Matthew's account could have included events in Bethelem up to 2 years after the birth of Jesus.  Luke on the other hand tells us of events that happened at and soon after the birth.

Events hard to place on a time line...

Return to Nazareth
Visit of Magi (still in Bethlehem?)
Escape to Egypt
Massacre of infants in Bethlehem
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #3350 on: Nov 15, 2017, 08:47AM »

Events hard to place on a time line...

Return to Nazareth
Visit of Magi (still in Bethlehem?)
Escape to Egypt
Massacre of infants in Bethlehem
Ah, my mistake.  I was in a Luke state of mind.

Yeah, most of what is written is hard to place.  The folks doing the writing did not realize that dates might have been important if they wanted to use historical events to frame the stories.
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« Reply #3351 on: Nov 15, 2017, 09:11AM »

Is it currently presumed that Luke did not know about gospel "Matthew". 

Would that be the explanation for why the magi stuff isn't in Luke?
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #3352 on: Nov 15, 2017, 12:11PM »

Is it currently presumed that Luke did not know about gospel "Matthew". 

Would that be the explanation for why the magi stuff isn't in Luke?

Answer to 1st question-- it depends on who you consult and what presuppositions they have about the text. :)

Answer to 2nd question-- in a nutshell, different purposes behind the emphasis of each gospel.  Matthew portrays the royal aspect of the messianic line, hence magi appear.  Luke emphasizes the ministry of Jesus to the more marginalized of Palestianian society, hence the shepherds, etc.  Compare that emphasis in the Magnificat, Mary's lyrical outburst of praise.
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« Reply #3353 on: Nov 15, 2017, 03:01PM »

Ah, my mistake.  I was in a Luke state of mind.

Yeah, most of what is written is hard to place.  The folks doing the writing did not realize that dates might have been important if they wanted to use historical events to frame the stories.

Yeah, they left out a lot of interesting detail.  ISTM that the "folks" weren't really concerned to place the birth at a exact time.  Events or people were mentioned for other reasons, eg Matt mentions King Herod to contrast him to "King" Jesus.
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« Reply #3354 on: Nov 15, 2017, 03:20PM »

How long does scholarly opinion say it took to fill out the census forms in Bethlehem?

How do we reconcile one account that says they quickly returned to Nazareth and the other that implies they stayed in Bethlehem long enough for the magi arrive, long enough such that they had to escape from Bethlehem because Herod got alarmed about what the magi told him?
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« Reply #3355 on: Nov 16, 2017, 01:48PM »

About 22 minutes.

Luke could have made it easier for us to harmonise the accounts.

I mentioned 2 years as an upper limit because that's the age of the boys that Matthew said Herod killed.  But may have just been vindictive or maybe he just said kill all boys that were still nursing which roughly equated to 2 years old, that's a easier way of identifying their age than looking for their birth certificates.

I get the minimum time for their stay in Bethlehem from Mark 2:22-24 (using the time of purification) and Leviticus 12:3,4.  So that would indicate that they took Jesus to the temple 40 days after he was born.  They offered a poor persons sacrifice so I'd infer that they hadn't yet been given the gifts by the magi.  So if the magi arrived shortly after that, then we've got a minimum stay in Bethlehem of about 5 weeks. 
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« Reply #3356 on: Nov 16, 2017, 02:45PM »

I would think that if Luke knew but still excluded the Matthew/magi/star story that's a sign he didn't believe it. His stated purpose is to be accurate and complete.

Another inconsistency is that Luke has the family returning to a home in Nazareth after the census, while Matthew presents Nazareth as a new place they go to because they can't return somewhere in Judea due to the new ruler.


The other stink I often read about is did Joseph really have to go to Bethlehem to register instead of where he lived and worked in Nazareth?

The explanation I read is that he would have had to go if he had important family properties there. So maybe Jesus was able to become a wandering preacher because he was rich with inherited wealth?
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« Reply #3357 on: Nov 16, 2017, 03:58PM »

I would think that if Luke knew but still excluded the Matthew/magi/star story that's a sign he didn't believe it. His stated purpose is to be accurate and complete.

Another inconsistency is that Luke has the family returning to a home in Nazareth after the census, while Matthew presents Nazareth as a new place they go to because they can't return somewhere in Judea due to the new ruler.


The other stink I often read about is did Joseph really have to go to Bethlehem to register instead of where he lived and worked in Nazareth?

The explanation I read is that he would have had to go if he had important family properties there. So maybe Jesus was able to become a wandering preacher because he was rich with inherited wealth?

I sometimes chuckle at the interesting speculations of those who basically say "if I were writing this book I would have...."

Of course the real kicker is that none of are writing them and we need to deal with the texts as we find them.
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« Reply #3358 on: Nov 16, 2017, 05:13PM »

I would think that if Luke knew but still excluded the Matthew/magi/star story that's a sign he didn't believe it. His stated purpose is to be accurate and complete.

I disagree Rob.  Luke's purpose was stated in 1:3,4 "it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught."  I take it that he was accurate but his purpose doesn't exclude him writing selectively.
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« Reply #3359 on: Nov 16, 2017, 05:59PM »

So maybe Jesus was able to become a wandering preacher because he was rich with inherited wealth?
I think there is some evidence Jesus and his entourage were funded by one or more of the women that traveled with them.  Especially Mary Magdeline.   They never seemed to get the hang of this 'temple on the road' gig though.  They kept forgetting the refreshments and had to rely on miracles to bail them out. 
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