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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatReligion(Moderator: bhcordova) TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
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BillO
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« Reply #3380 on: Nov 21, 2017, 07:12PM »

- The Holy Spirit guides Jesus straight into the clutches of the devil or Satan a.k.a. the "Slanderer," who puts Jesus through forty days of testing.
Why!!!?  Wasn't he Christ?  According to the Trinity he was fully God.  Why (on earth) would he need testing?  What gives here Driz?

1) Can't you see why this is difficult to for us apostates to take in?
2) How do the devout reconcile this?
3) Could it be that, as reported in the Gospels as being claimed by Jesus himself, he really was just the son of (a) man and not a divine savior?
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John the Theologian
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« Reply #3381 on: Nov 21, 2017, 07:32PM »

Why!!!?  Wasn't he Christ?  According to the Trinity he was fully God.  Why (on earth) would he need testing?  What gives here Driz?

1) Can't you see why this is difficult to for us apostates to take in?
2) How do the devout reconcile this?
3) Could it be that, as reported in the Gospels as being claimed by Jesus himself, he really was just the son of (a) man and not a divine savior?

The testing is crucial to the status of Jesus as the 2nd Adam.  Adam was tested in the Garden of Eden and failed with disastrous results.  Jesus was tested in a completely different place-- the desolate wilderness-- with wonderful results.

If you take this out of the biblical picture, the whole redemptive plan is not possible.  In theology it's called  his active obedience.

Rather than being a problem for the believer, it is crucial to our way of thinking.

Jesus was divine, but he was also human and as perfect human his testing is vicarious-- His passing the test is graciously imputed to us.
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drizabone
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« Reply #3382 on: Nov 22, 2017, 12:16PM »

Why!!!?  Wasn't he Christ?  According to the Trinity he was fully God.  Why (on earth) would he need testing?  What gives here Driz?

1) Can't you see why this is difficult to for us apostates to take in?
2) How do the devout reconcile this?
3) Could it be that, as reported in the Gospels as being claimed by Jesus himself, he really was just the son of (a) man and not a divine savior?

Yeah I can see.  Trying to understand God's nature seems the hardest part of the intellectual side of christianity for me.  But I don't see that as a difficulty for christianity, I'd expect that the being that created and runs the whole cosmos is going to be harder to comprehend than what he created.

And as John says, the dual nature of Jesus and the trinity is crucial to our thinking.  (although just between ourselves the trinity is the hardest to understand - and I don't think I have a good grasp of why and how the Spirit is a person of God the same way the father and son are.)

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drizabone
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« Reply #3383 on: Nov 22, 2017, 06:25PM »

Luke 5 text

Highlights

 - Jesus gathers some followers, starts teaching and healing and annoying the hierarchy

Summary

1. Jesus gathers some followers
 - Jesus was teaching sizeable crowds while standing on the shore of the lake of Gennesaret.
 - Jesus sees boats by the shore and fishermen washing their nets.
 - Jesus boards Simon's boat and requests that Simon push off into the water a bit, so Jesus can teach the crowds on the shore while sitting in the boat.
 - After finishing class, Jesus asks Simon to move the boat into deeper water and lower his nets again.
 - Simon doubts that they will catch anything, but he addresses Jesus as "Master" (5:5) and is not about to ignore his advice. After all, this is the guy who cured his mother-in-law (4:38).
 - they catch so many fish that their nets start to tear.
 - They gesture to their fishing partners in another boat for assistance. Suddenly, both boats are filled with so many fish that they start to sink.
 - Simon (a.k.a. Peter) falls to Jesus's feet and says how lowly he is compared to Jesus.
 - Everyone's just shocked. And by the way, James and John were Simon's fishing partners in the other boat.
 - Jesus responds, "Do not be afraid; from now on you will be catching people" (5:10).
 - They dock their boats, leave everything, and follow Jesus.

2. Jesus heals a leper
 - While in one of the cities, a man with leprosy falls down before Jesus and begs him to cleanse him.
 - Jesus touches him and wulla, he's cured.
 - Jesus commands the man not to tell anyone, but to perform the purification ceremonies according to The Law.
 - Apparently someone has a big mouth, though. Word spreads, and Jesus is officially going viral. Everyone wants to be cured.
 - But Jesus withdraws into the wilderness where he prays.

3. Jesus and the Establishment
 - One one day when he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers came to here him - from all the local areas and even from Jerusalem
 - Some men brought a paralyzed friend to Jesus to heal.
 - Jesus tells the man that his sins were forgiven.  The Pharisees and teachers accuse Jesus of blasphemy.
 - Jesus asks whether its easier to heal or forgive, and to show that he has authority to forgive he healed the man, who got up and walk.
 - Everyone was amazed.

4. Jesus calls Levi
 - Jesus calls Levi a tax collector as a disciple
 - The Religious leaders grumble about this - but Jesus points out that he has come to call sinners to repentance

5. Fasting?
 - And the grumbled that Jesus disciples weren't fasting appropriately too.
 - Jesus said that it was right for them to celebrate and then tells them a parable about garments and wineskins.

Questions and Observations

1) Matthew and Mark call Gennesaret "the Sea of Galilee"
2) Jesus's willingness to touch a person suffering from leprosy is significant.  The Torah explicitly forbids contact with such persons. Leviticus 13-14.  Normally when someone "clean" touches something or someone "unclean" they become unclean.  But in Jesus case the unclean becomes clean.
 - Wulla is Australian for voila - at least for my kids.
3) I bet the paralyzed man was disappointed when Jesus told him that his sins were forgiven.  He wanted to be healed!
 - I think that reason that Jesus implied its easier to forgive someone than to heal him was because you can tell if someone is healed or not, but not if they are fogiven or not.
4) Tax Collectors were considered to be scum.  They were working for the invaders and apparently used to take more than they had to for their own pockets.
5) The parable about the old and the new is supposed to tell us about the transition from the Old to the New Covenant.
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