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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatReligion(Moderator: bhcordova) TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
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BillO
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« Reply #3800 on: Feb 12, 2018, 07:13PM »

And tell me when I don't actually explain anything.

That doesn't happen much with your answers Martin, but I will let you know if it happens again.
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« Reply #3801 on: Feb 13, 2018, 02:40AM »

John 12 text
2) We're in the last week of Jesus life and still only half way through the book.  What do you think this shows about what John thinks is important.

The other gospels were similar, as I recall? Though not such a strong tendency.

5) There are lots of OT references in this passage that we can explore if you're interested.

Please do!
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Dave Taylor

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« Reply #3802 on: Feb 15, 2018, 01:38AM »

OT references and allusions in John 12

We've got a couple of references identifying Jesus with the OT Kings

v13: Hosanna from Ps 118:25-26 and "King of Israel" from lots of places
v14-15: Zec 9:9 'your king will come ... on a donkey'

And then some referring to the response of the unbelievers then.

v37,38 : Is 53:1 - John points out that the prophets had said that they wouldn't believe God
v39,40 : Is 6:10 - and then why.


Did I say stacks?  Oh well.
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« Reply #3803 on: Feb 15, 2018, 06:50AM »

John 13 text

Highlights

 - The Last Supper

Summary

 - Jesus confronts his impending human death, and looks for a lesson to apply
 - He washes the feet of his disciples, urging them to follow his example, to be servants
 - Jesus predicts that he will be betrayed by a disciple
  - Peter asks who; Jesus replies that it will be the one he gives a piece of bread to
  - Jesus gives bread to Judas Iscariot, who then leaves
 - A new commandment: Love everyone
 - Jesus tells Peter that he cannot travel with him now, and will moreover deny knowing him three times

Questions and Observations

1) The first two sentences of this chapter are some convoluted English... Clause after clause after clause. 38 and 49 words respectively.
2) There feels something that upsets intuition about the naming of Judas as the betrayer here, though I can't quite decide what it is. Judas is unmasked before the other disciples, but then he simply goes on his way. This doesn't feel quite right, but there's nothing obviously paradoxical about it.
3) The commandment to love - JtT, a question for you - what is the original Greek word translated as "love" here? It might carry one of several different meanings.
4) This is one of the few chapters in the Book of John that duplicates synoptic material. Compare Matthew 26, Mark 14, and Luke 22.
5) John omits the eucharist, included synoptically. Is this important?
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« Reply #3804 on: Feb 15, 2018, 08:39AM »

Is the use of Satan in this chapter symbolic of something?

There seems to be some attempt to pass the culpability of Juda's actions onto Satan.  However I have an issue with this, since this was supposedly all God's plan. So why the mention of Satan like it was his idea?
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« Reply #3805 on: Feb 16, 2018, 03:48AM »

Good questions...
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« Reply #3806 on: Feb 16, 2018, 01:39PM »

John 13 text

Highlights

 - The Last Supper

Summary

 - Jesus confronts his impending human death, and looks for a lesson to apply
 - He washes the feet of his disciples, urging them to follow his example, to be servants
v10,11 includes a little teaching moment on cleansing in a theological sense. Jesus makes the point to Peter that if he has had a bath then he doesn't need a complete washing just to have the dust from daily living, (like walking around on dusty roads in sandals, picking up dirty cups ...) washed off.  I see this as a metaphor for spiritual cleansing (I'm sure you remember all the clean/unclean teachings in the Old Covenant from Leviticus on).  So Peter had been cleansed as he was a true believer and so just needed a quick wash to clean the dust off his hands and feet and he'd be golden.  On the other hand there was one among them who wasn't a true believer and so wasn't clean in a theological sense. 

This idea is filled out later in the bible and is called sanctification.

Quote
- Jesus predicts that he will be betrayed by a disciple
  - Peter asks who; Jesus replies that it will be the one he gives a piece of bread to
  - Jesus gives bread to Judas Iscariot, who then leaves
 - A new commandment: Love everyone
 - Jesus tells Peter that he cannot travel with him now, and will moreover deny knowing him three times

Questions and Observations

1) The first two sentences of this chapter are some convoluted English... Clause after clause after clause. 38 and 49 words respectively.
Yeah.  The NIV splits it up for you:

Quote
It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.

The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.

Is that better?

FWIW: the NT is written in koine Greek which was the common greek of the time.  Its apparently different to 'classical greek' that was used by real writers and orators used.  But the greeks didn't have much in the way of punctuation. 

They'd ramble on for a paragraph or so before they'd put a full stop in. So translators provide sentences structures as well as words that we can understand.

You can see this if you pick one of the Greek New Testaments as the "translation" eg https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+13&version=TR1894.  That one breaks the text up into verses to make it easier for us to read.  This one https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+13&version=SBLGNT has it more like how it would appear in one of the ancient documents we've got.  But its got commas and full stops in so its not entirely 'original'

Quote
2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.
2) There feels something that upsets intuition about the naming of Judas as the betrayer here, though I can't quite decide what it is. Judas is unmasked before the other disciples, but then he simply goes on his way. This doesn't feel quite right, but there's nothing obviously paradoxical about it.

I agree it does seem strange: that Jesus identifies a betrayer in the group but that the rest of the group don't seem to be horrified.

The narrative doesn't have Judas named by Jesus at the time.  It looks like that is the narrator adding that as an editorial comment so that the readers know who it was.

Quote
3) The commandment to love - JtT, a question for you - what is the original Greek word translated as "love" here? It might carry one of several different meanings.

I know this, let me answer it. :)

The Greeks actually had a number of words for love, so John was able to be precise.

- Eros is sexual or passionate love, and is the type most akin to our modern construct of romantic love.
- Philia, or friendship, is shared goodwill. Aristotle believed that a person can bear goodwill to another for one of three reasons: that he is useful; that he is pleasant; and, above all, that he is good, that is, rational and virtuous.
- Storge (‘store-gae’), or familial love, is a kind of philia pertaining to the love between parents and their children.
- Agape is universal love, such as the love for strangers, nature, or God. Unlike storge, it does not depend on filiation or familiarity. Also called charity by Christian thinkers, agape can be said to encompass the modern concept of altruism, defined as unselfish concern for the welfare of others.
- Ludus is playful or uncommitted love.
- Pragma is a kind of practical love founded on reason or duty and one’s longer-term interests.
- Philautia is self-love, which can be healthy or unhealthy.

see for more description : https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201606/these-are-the-7-types-love

If you look at one of the Greek texts you can see that John uses ἀγαπᾶτε for love.  This is a grammatic form of Agape (which I think is pronounced agapay)

Quote
4) This is one of the few chapters in the Book of John that duplicates synoptic material. Compare Matthew 26, Mark 14, and Luke 22.
5) John omits the eucharist, included synoptically. Is this important?

I don't think it is significant.  I expect that the eucharist was well established by the time John wrote so he didn't need to write about it again.
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« Reply #3807 on: Feb 16, 2018, 01:55PM »

Is the use of Satan in this chapter symbolic of something?

I think John the apostle is making the point that even though at one level Judas was betraying Jesus for his reasons (which was why he was culpable) in the background Satan had an agenda that he was working towards too. 

Just like in a spy/war story.

Quote
There seems to be some attempt to pass the culpability of Juda's actions onto Satan.  However I have an issue with this, since this was supposedly all God's plan. So why the mention of Satan like it was his idea?

God didn't make anyone act involuntarily. So:

I think Judas was responsible (culpable) because he betrayed Jesus for his motives: out of greed or wanting Jesus to be lead a rebellion against the Romans.

I think Satan was responsible (culpable) because he wanted Jesus killed to achieve his evil plan: maybe he was jealous of Jesus and wanted to be respected.

I think God was responsible because he wanted Jesus to die, but for good reasons: that had to happen to save us all.

I don't think that one level of planning and moving removes the responsibility of the individual actors for their actions at the lower level.
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« Reply #3808 on: Feb 16, 2018, 02:16PM »

John 14 text

Highlights

 - Jesus provides comfort and instruction to those he will leave behind

Summary

 - Jesus tells the 12 not to be troubled, but to believe in God and himself.
 - He's going away to prepare them a place.
 - The only way to the Father is through him
 - He explains that if they have seem him then they have seen the Father
 - and that they will do greater works than he.
 - Jesus promises that he won't leave them behind alone but that he will send the Holy Spirit to be with them
 - that keeping his words is a sign that you love him and the Father will love you

Questions and Observations

1) Jesus continues his farewell speech, preparing the 12 to go on after he has left them
2) Are Jesus words meant for the 12 or to believers in general?   
   Was Jesus preparing a place for all believers and is this heaven or was he just talking about the apostles
   Are all believers going to be able to do greater works that Jesus or was that just the apostles
   And what sort of works does he mean?
   Do all those who love Jesus have to obey his commands or just the 12?
   Has the Spirit been given to all believers in the same way or were the 12 given special help?
   Do all of these question have to have the same answer? I mean that do they all apply to just the 12 or all apply to all believers?
3) This chapter is why Christians think that Jesus is the Only Way to get to God and that other religions are the Wrong Way.
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« Reply #3809 on: Feb 16, 2018, 03:18PM »

v10,11 includes a little teaching moment on cleansing in a theological sense. Jesus makes the point to Peter that if he has had a bath then he doesn't need a complete washing just to have the dust from daily living, (like walking around on dusty roads in sandals, picking up dirty cups ...) washed off.  I see this as a metaphor for spiritual cleansing (I'm sure you remember all the clean/unclean teachings in the Old Covenant from Leviticus on).  So Peter had been cleansed as he was a true believer and so just needed a quick wash to clean the dust off his hands and feet and he'd be golden.  On the other hand there was one among them who wasn't a true believer and so wasn't clean in a theological sense. 

This idea is filled out later in the bible and is called sanctification.
Yeah.  The NIV splits it up for you:

Is that better?

FWIW: the NT is written in koine Greek which was the common greek of the time.  Its apparently different to 'classical greek' that was used by real writers and orators used.  But the greeks didn't have much in the way of punctuation. 

They'd ramble on for a paragraph or so before they'd put a full stop in. So translators provide sentences structures as well as words that we can understand.

You can see this if you pick one of the Greek New Testaments as the "translation" eg https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+13&version=TR1894.  That one breaks the text up into verses to make it easier for us to read.  This one https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+13&version=SBLGNT has it more like how it would appear in one of the ancient documents we've got.  But its got commas and full stops in so its not entirely 'original'

I agree it does seem strange: that Jesus identifies a betrayer in the group but that the rest of the group don't seem to be horrified.

The narrative doesn't have Judas named by Jesus at the time.  It looks like that is the narrator adding that as an editorial comment so that the readers know who it was.

I know this, let me answer it. :)

The Greeks actually had a number of words for love, so John was able to be precise.

- Eros is sexual or passionate love, and is the type most akin to our modern construct of romantic love.
- Philia, or friendship, is shared goodwill. Aristotle believed that a person can bear goodwill to another for one of three reasons: that he is useful; that he is pleasant; and, above all, that he is good, that is, rational and virtuous.
- Storge (‘store-gae’), or familial love, is a kind of philia pertaining to the love between parents and their children.
- Agape is universal love, such as the love for strangers, nature, or God. Unlike storge, it does not depend on filiation or familiarity. Also called charity by Christian thinkers, agape can be said to encompass the modern concept of altruism, defined as unselfish concern for the welfare of others.
- Ludus is playful or uncommitted love.
- Pragma is a kind of practical love founded on reason or duty and one’s longer-term interests.
- Philautia is self-love, which can be healthy or unhealthy.

see for more description : https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201606/these-are-the-7-types-love

If you look at one of the Greek texts you can see that John uses ἀγαπᾶτε for love.  This is a grammatic form of Agape (which I think is pronounced agapay)

I don't think it is significant.  I expect that the eucharist was well established by the time John wrote so he didn't need to write about it again.

Martin has done  nice job on the Greek words for love.  There was some overlap, but generally the NT uses agape, which is more about love of commtiement and does not highlight the emotional aspects that we usually link with the term for love.

John comes closest to mentioning the eucharist in John 6, where he is giving some of the theology behind it rather than discussion the insitution of the Lord Supper.
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« Reply #3810 on: Today at 05:03 PM »

John 15 text

Highlights

 - Jesus talks about how they need to stay in him and love one another

Summary

 - Jesus says that he is the true vine and that his Father is the vinedresser and that every branch that doesn't bear fruit will be cut off and thrown away and wither.
 - But if they abide in him they will flourish and bear lots of fruit.
 - its all about love: its the greatest commandment. Jesus and the Father loved them and they are to love one another the same way.
 - if they do this they will not be his servants but his friends.
 - he reminds them that he chose them not the other way around and that whatever they ask in the fathers name he may give it to them.
 - But the world will hate and persecute them, because they hated and persecuted me.
 - Jesus says that the world is condemned because they didn't believe him but they hated him.

 - He will send the Spirit from the Father who will bear witness to them

Questions and Observations

1) This chapter starts with Jesus saying 'I am the true vine'  which reminds me that John records 7 statements of Jesus saying 'I am ...'.
 - 'I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.' (John 6:35)
 - 'I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.' (John 8:12)
 - 'I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture.' (John 10:9)
 - 'I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.' (John 10:11)
 - 'I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.' (John 11:25-26)
 - 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' (John 14:6)
 - 'I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.' (John 15:5)
These statements are a good summary of who (John thought) Jesus claimed to be.

2) John also records some signs that Jesus did.
Sign 1: Water Into Wine (John 2:1-11)
Sign 2: Healing the Official’s Son (John 4:43-54)
Sign 3: The Healing at the Pool of Bethesda (John 5:1-9)
Sign 4: The Feeding of the 5000 (John 6:1-5)
Sign 5: Walking on the Water (John 6:16-25)
Sign 6: Healing The Man Born Blind (John 9:1-41)
Sign 7: Raising Lazarus From The Dead (John 11:1-44)

Supplementary 1: The Crucifiction
Supplementary 2: The Resurrection
Supplementary 3: Telling the disciples where to fish Miracle 8: (John 21:1-14)

There are different opinions on how many of these were signs and whether there should be 7 of them, and what that might mean of there was 7.  I'm not making any assumptions or forming any hypotheses.

3) This passage is a pretty important statement setting out what should be christian priorities.  Don't you think?  Its agape in the Greek.  But its important to define love and seeing we're talking about the bible that we should use a definition consistent with the NT. I'd suggest that Love is doing what is best for someone. eg 1 Cor 13

Once you've established a definition then feel free to point out how Christians are good and not so good at living this one out.
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