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Author Topic: Sattler's F valve  (Read 4000 times)
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Tim Dowling

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« on: Dec 06, 2015, 12:22PM »

So Christian Friedrich Sattler is credited with being the first instrument builder to apply a rotary valve to a trombone to lower the pitch in 1839. This is a generally accepted fact of trombone history. My question is, has anyone ever seen this instrument? Or the patent or drawing. As far as I know there is no Sattler trombone with a valve extant. At least in museums. Perhaps in a private collection. Any leads on this. I know the whereabouts of only four Sattler trombones! and have seen photos of them. But the must be more in private collections or other museums that I have missed.
These four Sattler are instruments pictured in the Leipzig exhibition catalogue. One of them is in private hands, the other three are in the Grassi Museum in Leipzig. None of them has a valve. There must be more Sattler trombones around. But where?
Herbert heyde wrote an article about Sattler's valve designs in Brass Bulletin 27 which is out of print.
Does anyone here have Brass bulletin 27 in their archive??
If you do please get in touch.
Thanks
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Tim Dowling
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« Reply #1 on: Dec 06, 2015, 01:06PM »

We probably have a copy, I will let you know when I get in to work in tomorrow. I am not familiar with any Sattler trombones with valves in any other museum collections.
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 06, 2015, 01:26PM »

The Sattler B flat/F trombone is described by G. W. Fink in a contemporaneous article entitled "Wichtige Verbesserung der Posaune", which appeared in the Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung (Vol. 41, col. 257-58) in 1839.



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Wichtige Verbesserung der Posaune

Durch mehrfache Versuche ist es dem längst rühmlich bekannten Herrn Messinginstrumentenmacher Sattler in Leipzig gelungen, der wirksamen Posaune die letzte höchst erwünschte Vollendung zu geben. Christian Friedr. Sattler, Sohn des Holzinstrumentenmachers S. in Leipzig, wurde hier am 20. Januar 1778 geb., kam 1794 bei dem hiesigen Messinginstrumentenmacher Sattler auf die Lehre und elablirte sich 1809. Seit lange waren seine Messinginstrumente die gesuchtesten. Jetzt hat er nun sowohl zum Vortheil der Bläser als der Komponisten an der Tenor-Bass-Posaune eine Vorrichtung angebracht, wodurch die bisher in Orchestern and Musikchören gebrauchte Quart- und Quintposaune völlig ersetzt wird. Durch diese eben so einfache als sichere Vorrichtung, sind die bis jetzt auf der Tenor-Bassposaune fehlenden Töne Es-D-C kräftig und schön gewonnen worden und zwar dergestalt, dass sie von jedem Bläser ohne die Züge zu verändern durch einen Druck des Daumens der linken Hand mit aller Sicherheit hervorgebracht werden können. Herr Karl Queisser in Leipzig, der allgekannte Posaunenvirtuos, hat die Gefälligkeit gehabt, das neue Instrument sorgfältig zu probiren. Er hat es in jeder Hinsicht höchst empfehlenswert gefunden. Wir hörten es von ihm blasen; alle Töne von der Höhe bis zur Tiefe klangen überaus herrlich und die Kontratöne Es, D, Des, C, Ces, В kamen in grösster Rundung, Fülle und Schönheit heraus. Das so verbesserte Instrument muss also allen Orchester- und Solobläsern als sehr zweckmässig bestens empfohlen werden. Es braucht nur der kurzen Anzeige; die Vortheile sieht jeder selbst.

G. W. Fink

Quote
Significant improvement of the trombone

After repeated experimentation, the long famous, well known brass instrument maker Herr Sattler of Leipzig has succeeded in giving the powerful trombone the latest highly desirable completion. Christian Friedrich Sattler, son of the woodwind instrument maker Sattler in Leipzig, was born here on 20 January 1778. In 1794 he entered into his apprenticeship at the local brass instrument maker Sattler and established his own workshop in 1809. His brass instruments have long been the most sought after. Now, to the advantage of both performers and composers, he has attached a device to the tenor-bass trombone, which will completely replace the F and E flat bass trombones previously used in orchestras and bands. With this device, as simple as it is reliable, the notes E flat, D, and C, which have until now been missing on the tenor-bass trombone, may be obtained powerfully and beautifully, and indeed such that they may be produced by every performer by pressure of the thumb of the left hand completely reliably. Herr Karl Queisser in Leipzig, the well known trombone virtuoso, has done a favour by trying out the new instrument carefully. He has found it highly recommendable in every respect. We heard him play it; all notes from the highest to the lowest sounded quite magnificent and the contrabass notes E flat, D, D flat, C, C flat, and B flat came out with the greatest roundness, fullness and beauty. This much improved instrument must therefore be highly recommended as very practical to all orchestral performers and soloists. It requires only the briefest demonstration; everyone can see the advantages for himself.

G. W. Fink
« Last Edit: Dec 06, 2015, 11:53PM by Edward_Solomon » Logged
Stewbones43

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« Reply #3 on: Dec 06, 2015, 02:06PM »

Just a side question- What would the "tenor-bass trombone " be which was "replaced" by this new invention?

Thanks

Stewbones
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Tim Dowling

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« Reply #4 on: Dec 06, 2015, 02:12PM »

Brilliant Ed. I was looking at Langwill and was curious who G.W. Fink was. This was Baines source as well. I'm going to be searching for more Sattler instruments for a dissertation.
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Tim Dowling
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Tim Dowling

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« Reply #5 on: Dec 06, 2015, 02:17PM »

Just a side question- What would the "tenor-bass trombone " be which was "replaced" by this new invention?

Thanks

Stewbones

Sattler had already built large bore tenors in the 1830's and maybe even earlier (?). This was the instrument that was called tenor-bass or even just bass by then. Almost certainly Queisser played the David premiere on this sort of instrument. Apparantly Queisser would walk past Sattler's shop on his way to play at the Gewandhaus.
This is the tenor bass trombone in the Grassi Museum

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Tim Dowling
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #6 on: Dec 06, 2015, 04:00PM »

Thank you Tim.

Stewbones
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 06, 2015, 05:38PM »

Hi Tim,
Do you know what the bore size was on these larger instruments? 

Mike
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Mike Szabo
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 07, 2015, 02:30AM »

There is a set of trombones created by Christian Friedrich Sattler in 1841 for the Church of St. Thomas and St Nicholas in the musical instrument collection of the University of Leipzig. These trombones represent a prototype of the wide bore Saxon trombones that Sattler had been developing up to 1835.


E flat alto trombone
Length: 878mm
Bell diameter: 127.5mm
Thickness: 0.4mm
Inner slide diameter (outside): 11.3mm/11.9mm dual bore
Mouthpiece receiver diameter (inside): 11mm
Mouthpiece length: 75mm
Cup diameter (outside): 31mm
Cup diameter (inside): 19mm
Throat diameter: 6mm
Shank diameter (outside): 11mm


B flat tenor trombone
Length: 1192mm
Bell diameter: 193mm
Thickness: 0.3mm
Inner slide diameter (outside): 12.8mm/14.1mm dual bore
Mouthpiece receiver diameter (inside): 12.8mm
Mouthpiece length: 87mm
Cup diameter (outside): 38mm
Cup diameter (inside): 24.3mm
Throat diameter: 9.9mm
Shank diameter (outside): 12mm


B flat tenorbass trombone
Length: 1184mm
Bell diameter: 232mm
Thickness: 0.3-0.4mm
Inner slide diameter (outside): 14mm/14.4mm dual bore
Mouthpiece receiver diameter (inside): 14mm
Mouthpiece length: 84mm
Cup diameter (outside): 38.6mm
Cup diameter (inside): 25.8mm
Throat diameter: 6.8mm
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MrPillow
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 08, 2015, 10:56AM »

Unfortunately we are missing all issues of the Brass Bulletin from 1977-1979. Best of luck tracking one down elsewhere!
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Tim Dowling

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« Reply #10 on: Dec 08, 2015, 02:01PM »

Unfortunately we are missing all issues of the Brass Bulletin from 1977-1979. Best of luck tracking one down elsewhere!

Thanks for looking! I'm sure I'll find it somewhere.
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Tim Dowling
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2017, 01:49PM »

Thanks for looking! I'm sure I'll find it somewhere.
Belatedly: Just read this.  Have you found it?  I have most of nos. 23-60.  Contacting you separately.
Dave
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2017, 05:36PM »


E flat alto trombone
Length: 878mm
Bell diameter: 127.5mm
Thickness: 0.4mm
Inner slide diameter (outside): 11.3mm/11.9mm dual bore
Mouthpiece receiver diameter (inside): 11mm

Interesting that the Crone alto (or at least, the Egger copy, but I assume their copy is faithful to the original dimensions), which is also from Leipzig, but from 60 years earlier, has almost the same size (bell is 4mm smaller, bore is ~0.5mm smaller than the initial bore of the Sattler).
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Maximilien Brisson
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« Reply #13 on: Nov 26, 2017, 01:47PM »

Ok I think I found it.

Before you click the link which has a very long article, use Control+F or command+F and type in "sattler"

Go to this link http://mogensandresen.dk/history-brass-instruments/romanticism-ii/

Have a good day!

Jack
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