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Author Topic: GUNS CHAPTER TWO //2nd AMENDMENT  (Read 6251 times)
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Ellrod

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« Reply #100 on: Oct 03, 2017, 01:57PM »

Men's rights vs men's right to tell women what to do. Simple.
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« Reply #101 on: Oct 03, 2017, 04:00PM »

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/
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B0B
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« Reply #102 on: Oct 03, 2017, 04:05PM »

If throwing random links out there...

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/upshot/compare-these-gun-death-rates-the-us-is-in-a-different-world.html

https://money.usnews.com/investing/stock-market-news/articles/2017-10-02/moral-problem-gun-stocks-rallying-after-mass-shootings
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BillO
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« Reply #103 on: Oct 03, 2017, 04:53PM »

I think it makes more sense to find out more about this shooter. He's the one that did this. You can't lay off any of the blame on his weapons of choice. We need to find out what was going on with this guy, especially scarry, because he doesn't seem, at this point, to have anything in his profile, that would suggest his actions. That's scarry.

Quote from: Billo
I wonder how well he would have done with a stick?  OR a grenade launcher?

The weapons matter to the outcome.  Saying they don't is ... so ridiculous ... there is not actually a word for it.

Dusty, any desire to rebut this?

Lets look at it.

Lives lost using a stick:  Hmm, how many should we go for here before some big cowboy steps in and put him out of his misery?  Maybe 2?

Lives lost using a car load of modded semi-automatic rifles: 59 or maybe a few more...

Lives lost using a grenade launcher:  It was a crowded place, so what do you guess?  Maybe some of the ex-military could chime in, but I'd estimate in such crowded conditions you could count on 25-50 lives per grenade.  if he had 100 grenades - shall wee say about 2500 people?

Dusty, can you see why it is ridiculous beyond reason to say something like "You can't lay off any of the blame on his weapons of choice."?

What if he used spent plutonium grenades?  All attendees plus some 10s of thousands of people that were in the vicinity?

What if he was a real man and used his dukes?  None?

If he had no access to weapons, as unreasonable as some of you will surely state, he would likely have killed no one.


Dusty, stop being a chicken.  Stand up for your rhetoric and respond!
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BillO
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« Reply #104 on: Oct 03, 2017, 04:56PM »


What kind of people do you have down there?
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« Reply #105 on: Oct 03, 2017, 05:44PM »

What kind of people do you have down there?

The call themselves capitalists....
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« Reply #106 on: Oct 03, 2017, 05:45PM »

Did this Lunatic have a pilot's license?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #107 on: Oct 03, 2017, 08:06PM »

Did this Lunatic have a pilot's license?

How is that relevant?

Note that he had permits for the arms he used.

Incidentally, I don't think you can shoot a grenade from a grenade launcher and hit the crowd from that distance; if I recall correctly it's not a mortar; it's a short range weapon.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #108 on: Oct 03, 2017, 09:28PM »

Gun companies have been going downhill since Trump was elected, because the dumberati no longer fear Obama's going to come for their guns.

Tragedies like this are a huge boon to the industry, because some gun owners fear the backlash, even though it never comes.
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ddickerson

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« Reply #109 on: Oct 03, 2017, 09:47PM »


If he had no access to weapons, as unreasonable as some of you will surely state, he would likely have killed no one.


Get back with me when you figure it out.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #110 on: Oct 04, 2017, 04:12AM »

Gun companies have been going downhill since Trump was elected, because the dumberati no longer fear Obama's going to come for their guns.
 
Tragedies like this are a huge boon to the industry, because some gun owners fear the backlash, even though it never comes.

That's the gun culture of fear, not so much the fear of being attacked. It's the NRA religion.
 
For many the fear (or "fear") of losing the right is enough to motivate them or give them an excuse to build a substantial collection (an excuse like that upon which we buy all sorts of things).
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BillO
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« Reply #111 on: Oct 04, 2017, 05:42AM »

Get back with me when you figure it out.
I did figure it out Dusty.

What I figured out is that I see a lot of people who hear something they think is significant and feel it supports their beliefs.  They never analyze it or try to figure out if it makes any sense because it came from some authority or authoritative figure in their lives.  Then in complete ignorance they go around repeating it thinking it makes them look smart.   These people are feeble minded.  They utter someone else's rubbish and then can't stand behind it, relegating them selves to the status of being intellectual cowards as well.
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« Reply #112 on: Oct 06, 2017, 03:00PM »

Just amend the 2nd amendment.
Its not hard.
The constitution was amended before, so just amend it again.


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« Reply #113 on: Oct 06, 2017, 03:13PM »

Just amend the 2nd amendment.
Its not hard.
The constitution was amended before, so just amend it again.


I guess you don't understand what you are suggesting.

An Amendment needs to pass the House of Representatives and the Senate.  In the Senate, the "losing" party can call a Filibuster which means you have to get a 60% majority instead of a simple majority.  At this time the Senate is 52 to 48.  After the amendment passes you need 3/4 of the States to ratify it.  That's 38 state legislatures, most of which are strongly pro Gun Rights.

The possibility of a Constitutional Amendment is next to zero.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #114 on: Oct 06, 2017, 04:55PM »

I guess you don't understand what you are suggesting.

An Amendment needs to pass the House of Representatives and the Senate.  In the Senate, the "losing" party can call a Filibuster which means you have to get a 60% majority instead of a simple majority.  At this time the Senate is 52 to 48.  After the amendment passes you need 3/4 of the States to ratify it.  That's 38 state legislatures, most of which are strongly pro Gun Rights.

The possibility of a Constitutional Amendment is next to zero.


Then do what we did in the UK with Europe.
Let the people decide, and then see if the politians wish to defy the will of the people.
Or just keep killing people
Its not just the mass killings, they only draw the attention of the worlds press. All I am hearing on my side of the pond is there might be some movement on silencers and the gadgets that made the weapons in to rapid fire devices.
Seriously ? The best they can come up with is "ok...we can put up with the noise" ?

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BGuttman
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« Reply #115 on: Oct 06, 2017, 05:35PM »

If it was up to me (and to a large number of Americans) true Military weapons would be illegal to own since they have no purpose other than killing other people.  Proper hunting and target rifles and guns would be OK. as well as historic personal arms (muskets, pistols, swords, etc.).  We have a certain cadre of people here who get their kicks from owning things that are unsociable (to use a kind word) and enjoy watching people squirm when they brandish such things.  They also get their jollies when they can imitate Rambo (movie character who wins wars single-handedly).  They have a powerful congressional lobby called the National Rifle Association, which has gone from an association that promoted firearm safety to one promoting acquisition and ownership of firearms of all types.  I'm waiting for them to start with grenade launchers and small nuclear weapons.

I would like to see firearms licensed with the licensees required to undergo safety and use training periodically, and to store their arms safely when not in use.  I would also like to see limits on the ability to carry firearms in crowded places like cities where their indescriminate use can cause harm to innocent bystanders.

I know this puts me at odds with many of our more Conservative members who think that the phrase:

Quote
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

should be interpreted as meaning you can't stop anybody from owning a firearm, or even put any kind of restriction on them.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #116 on: Oct 06, 2017, 05:57PM »

Any person who takes that wording, without applying the context and time in which it was written, is quite frankly, stupid.
There must be plenty of laws on American books which no longer apply or have been repealed because they no longer fit the purpose for which they were intended.

Since the 2nd amendment was added to the constitution, how many times has a malitia needed to be raised ? How many privately owned guns have been used to defend the nation on American soil ? If the answer is a low number then there is probably very little use for 2nd ammendment.

The people have the abilty to bring about change. I just wonder whos son or daughter needs to be shot before the people have had enough.

As sick as it may seem, whilst no one here is laughing at the tragedy, there has been plenty of satire (at least in the uk) laughing at America for allowing this to continue. Maybe Americans need the guns to defend themselves from satire ?
The nation is under attack from comedians, grab an AK-47 and defend the nation.
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« Reply #117 on: Oct 06, 2017, 06:19PM »

Just amend the 2nd amendment.
Its not hard.
The constitution was amended before, so just amend it again.



The short answer is that one of the main failings of our constitution is that the bar to amend was set a bit too high. Later adaptations often learned and made it a bit easier. And in truth, our later growth probably contributes to a great deal of that difficulty and they couldn't have seen that coming.

But it is what it is... and that is almost impossible to amend it, and anything with the level of agreement needed to amend it... well, those items aren't often issue to begin with. So we are stuck with a powerful lobbying group using an obselete amendment to turn fear into profit.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #118 on: Oct 06, 2017, 08:43PM »

Any person who takes that wording, without applying the context and time in which it was written, is quite frankly, stupid.
There must be plenty of laws on American books which no longer apply or have been repealed because they no longer fit the purpose for which they were intended.
 
Since the 2nd amendment was added to the constitution, how many times has a malitia needed to be raised ? How many privately owned guns have been used to defend the nation on American soil ? If the answer is a low number then there is probably very little use for 2nd ammendment.
 
The people have the abilty to bring about change. I just wonder whos son or daughter needs to be shot before the people have had enough.
 
As sick as it may seem, whilst no one here is laughing at the tragedy, there has been plenty of satire (at least in the uk) laughing at America for allowing this to continue. Maybe Americans need the guns to defend themselves from satire ?
The nation is under attack from comedians, grab an AK-47 and defend the nation.

Why don't you come over here and fix everything for us ... that'd be great.
 
You obviously have all the answers, and it's all so simple for you too.
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« Reply #119 on: Oct 06, 2017, 11:23PM »

I'll echo that sentiment as an American living abroad for the last 5 years in Asia.  I see people from all over the world as part of my work.  I can tell you that it's not only the UK that gets quizzical looks on their faces and shakes their head in disbelief regarding the gun quagmire in the US.  These people are from Europe, Australia/NZ, Latin America, Asia, and of course mostly other Americans!

At it's core this IS a simple problem.  There are too many guns, and there are too few rules. There is a large powerful gun lobby. The solution to the problem I agree is difficult.  Other countries have done it (Australia comes to mind), so it's not impossible.  We won't be moving back to the US anytime soon, and this phenomenon is part of the reason.
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