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Author Topic: GUNS CHAPTER TWO //2nd AMENDMENT  (Read 7479 times)
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Alex
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« Reply #120 on: Oct 07, 2017, 03:36AM »

On my way Baron.

The problem would be a lot easier to solve if America were actually group of United States. Wouldn't that be great ? A United States of America. U.S.A. has a good ring to it don't ya think ?
Instead, America is more like 50 different countries who all happen to drive on the same side of the road. and use the same currency. I guess that makes things simpler.

This issue will probably need something akin to the Civil Rights Movement, in order for some common sense to be applied. The issue is a simple one and if the people want it to be changed then they have the power to do it.



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BGuttman
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« Reply #121 on: Oct 07, 2017, 06:38AM »

Alex, you may remember that last summer we had an incident where a sniper shot at Republican congressmen at a baseball game practice.  He wounded a couple, one rather seriously.

The guy who was wounded seriously returned to his seat in Congress last week and said he doesn't support a law to limit guns.  With that kind of mentality, you have your work cut out for you.
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Bruce Guttman
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #122 on: Oct 07, 2017, 07:29AM »

On my way Baron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1pWHK5g90U
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« Reply #123 on: Oct 07, 2017, 10:01AM »

I'm kind of partial to this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCbfMkh940Q

Of course we will have to be selective on which site.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #124 on: Oct 07, 2017, 12:34PM »

Great choice/great clip ... just has zero to do with the point I was making is all.
 
But other than that little detail ...
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« Reply #125 on: Oct 07, 2017, 01:46PM »



I would like to see firearms licensed with the licensees required to undergo safety and use training periodically, and to store their arms safely when not in use.  I would also like to see limits on the ability to carry firearms in crowded places like cities where their indescriminate use can cause harm to innocent bystanders.


We do have some common sense measures in place. 

You can't buy mail order, you have to have a background check run, you can't buy if you're a convicted felon or mentally ill, there are a number of prohibited items, not just automatic firing but those with features like short barrels, the dreaded bayonet lug; in some states there are long waiting periods, limits on guns per month, limits on magazine size, etc.  If your spouse has a restraining order they will confiscate your guns until it expires.  If you do a firearm crime there is usually a mandatory long prison sentence. 

It's not like there haven't been some attempts.  But a) this is not easy given the inventory already out there, and the unique American propensity for solving problems by shooting people, and b) most of these will have their impact, if there is any, on the more common deaths.  It's hard to see what kind of "common sense" control measure will work for the sophisticated lone sniper scenario. 

That's our approach though.  Ignore gang drivebys, convenience store holdups, resisting arrest, suicide, but react emotionally to the rare but highly publicized mass shooting.  Then enact something, anything, don't care if it works but it makes us feel better.

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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #126 on: Oct 07, 2017, 03:05PM »

I posted in this thread first time round.

I still think that fiddling about with piecemeal prohibitions on this attachment or that barrel length is insignificant compared to addressing attitudes of firearms users. Guns are a tool, and like any tool, can be used or misused.

Surely US policeman and soldiers have an annual weapons handling and marksmanship test? Fail it and you can't carry a firearm on duty, or at least I would certainly hope so. I remember hearing somewhere that a high proportion of US gun injuries and deaths are people shooting themselves or a family member by accident. It's the competence and attitude of the bearer that is important, not the precise design of the firearm.

Extending the Police/Armed forces test to all gun owners seems a logical and reasonable step (derived from the "well regulated" bit of the 2nd Amendment). I think some kind of education about why the Amendment exists, what it's for, Rousseau Social Contract etc etc would also gradually make a cultural change. The guns cease to become an accessory for an American, and become a serious element of democratic responsibility, just like enfranchisement.

But what about the illegally held guns? Surely the great majority of gun crime is committed with illegally possessed guns. Robberies, gang fights etc as timothy42b says, rather than the relatively rare lone wolf going crazy. But is this even true? Can anyone tell me what proportion of gun crime in the USA is committed with legally possessed firearms?

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BGuttman
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« Reply #127 on: Oct 07, 2017, 04:21PM »

There is little we can do about illegal guns.

The shooter at Columbine took his father's gun.  The shooter at Sandy Hook killed his mother and took her gun.  This kind of thing can't be fixed with legislation; although people talk about biological locks like fingerprint detectors to prevent a weapon from being fired except by the registered owner. 

I like the idea of safety testing and training.  I've always considered the "well regulated militia" part of the phrase to refer to National Guard and Reserves groups, not a bunch of rag-tag gun nuts with Rambo fantasies.  I understand that firearms have their uses and if you want to hunt or target shoot that's a valid reason.  But I don't see the use of a modified Military style weapon for these activities.  Collectors generally don't want to actually use their specimens and a modification to prevent their being used would be appropriate.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #128 on: Oct 09, 2017, 02:37PM »

The European perspective:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/9/16448302/guns-nra-sunday-lubach
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« Reply #129 on: Oct 10, 2017, 10:47AM »

There is little we can do about illegal guns.
There's an awful lot we can do about illegal guns! First off, maybe have some way to actually check if they are indeed illegal?

For example, in some states, you can buy a handgun privately - no background check - and then carry it concealed with no training or permit. It's actually a current push by the NRA to expand this option.

So you have a gun with no record of purchase, no records run for the user, and carried in a concealed way without any paperwork. Is that legal? Maybe the gun was stolen. Maybe the user is a felon? In some states, that only applies to residents, they could be from out of state. And how would you know if it's illegal?

How can you do something about illegal guns if it's damn hard to tell if they are even illegal to start with?


We do have some common sense measures in place. 
Far less than most any other areas... such as cars. A quick check can tell if the driver is licensed, what their record is, what cars they own and are insured under, and if they have medical issues that may temporarily prevent them from effectively operating a car... such as seizures in the past year. 

you have to have a background check run
Wrong. I have four guns and have never had a background check. And even if a check is run, it's weaker than most checks for employment.

Shoot, I was at a rodeo in Idaho a few days ago where I could have gotten an AR-15 via fairly cheap lottery.

Which is a funny thing about the private sales. We have plenty of things where private seller need to register the sale with the government. Title for a car, for example. We just don't.

you can't buy if you're a convicted felon or mentally ill
On the later, congress reverse that this past year. Per the felon, depends on who you're buying from.

there are a number of prohibited items, not just automatic firing but those with features like short barrels, the dreaded bayonet lug;
Quite few in number. Especially when compared to say the restrictions or safety standards placed on other less hazardous materials or objects.

in some states there are long waiting periods, limits on guns per month, limits on magazine size, etc.  If your spouse has a restraining order they will confiscate your guns until it expires.  If you do a firearm crime there is usually a mandatory long prison sentence.
To be clear, these are state specific. People drive across the state line for cheaper gas and commodities and taxes on a regular basis. A state by state issue with certain aspects are hardly meaningful when you can readily circumvent them. Especially when there is no documentation or records to go along with it.

Can you imagine if new car safety standards were mandated state by state? And not a big state like CA, but different between OK and AR and MO and the like? They'd be useless and confusing as hell!
 

It's not like there haven't been some attempts.  But a) this is not easy given the inventory already out there, and the unique American propensity for solving problems by shooting people, and b) most of these will have their impact, if there is any, on the more common deaths.  It's hard to see what kind of "common sense" control measure will work for the sophisticated lone sniper scenario.

That's our approach though.  Ignore gang drivebys, convenience store holdups, resisting arrest, suicide, but react emotionally to the rare but highly publicized mass shooting.  Then enact something, anything, don't care if it works but it makes us feel better.
 
The last part is actually important. Not for what it is, but what it is not. It is not specific or intelligent. It is lumping all gun crimes together as one. And in that case, no answer will impact the broad crimes, just one specific area. As such, these different areas need to be looked at an addressed specifically.

A drive by gang shooting is remarkably different than the type of mass shooting that just occurred.

Mass shootings are an issue unto themselves. And they have some very strong commonalities across them. Take a subset of that... "rampage" shootings. Basically shootings of four or more where the actual targets don't matter... such as Las Vegas. He was shooting to kill people, didn't matter who.

In that case, the shooters are almost entirely white, Christian, and male. And their targets are almost entirely "safe places". Churches, schools, large peaceful public gatherings like concerts or movie theaters... Very different demographic doing the shooting, with very different motivations, and different targets.

Tim mentions "the dreaded bayonet lug" sarcastically, but that actually quite important to the mass shooter crowd. There, it's the image of the gun more than the functionality. A bayonet lug is useless. But it gives that illusion of a more military weapon, more waging war, more rage/travesty.

And remember who this group is again... The AR-15 crowd? A gun that's looks and little civilian purpose other than "target shooting"? NRA members. GOP members. Heavily white men, and not exactly youthful. The same group that has quite a high suicide rate because they feel like they should be powerful socially but instead feels impotent. Image is everything. And unfortunately, the image that is sold with an AR-15 is far from responsible.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #130 on: Oct 10, 2017, 11:29AM »

For example, in some states, you can buy a handgun privately - no background check - and then carry it concealed with no training or permit. It's actually a current push by the NRA to expand this option.

Which states allow concealed carry (or open) w/o a permit or certification of some sort?
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« Reply #131 on: Oct 10, 2017, 11:35AM »


Which states allow concealed carry (or open) w/o a permit or certification of some sort?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States#Permitting_policies

has a quick breakdown. See "unrestricted"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States#Unrestricted
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« Reply #132 on: Oct 10, 2017, 12:05PM »


I have always been partial to Jim Jefferies take on it...

https://youtu.be/0rR9IaXH1M0
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« Reply #133 on: Dec 15, 2017, 03:31PM »

I did not want to start a new thread so posted here ( very disturbing, I only watched once, video link in text ):

http://reason.com/archives/2017/12/13/scared-cops-are-scary

I learned an important lesson here.

When a LEO orders you face down, arms outreached, do not follow any additional orders.

Let them come and cuff you.

You will get a drunk in public charge, no big deal.

The “Simon says game” will get you killed.

I wonder how many lost this game before body Cams?

I am primarily very pro 'law enforcement'; although, questions arise on today's training & tactics.
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« Reply #134 on: Dec 26, 2017, 05:56AM »

 :-0 :-0 :-0 :-0 :-0 :-0//////// Don't know Don't know Don't know Don't know Don't know
illinois  ///chicago  --extremely  gun control  statutes  /// effectively  limiting ''legal'' use-ownership
  of those  who  might  be the  most exposed  to violent  crimes  home invasion  armed robbery  car jacking
  unlawful entry trespass  sexual assault  organized criminal groups  use   by  minors and  other  carriers  of 
   various  firearms  and other  weapons
=============================================
   depending  upon  law enforcement   and first  responder  aid   in  the  event    of interaction  with perpetrators  with   criminal intent  and use  of force  --leaves  the  victims  often  dead   injured disabled
 and  robbed  beat up stabbed  shot  sexually  assaulted   friends  family children  as well 
===============================================
  the  use  of firearms  to solve  problems  is  widely  promoted  thru  various  media    video gaming
action  and documentary films  mystery  novels  westerns  si-fi spy and  other  ---on the flip side
  the total distaste  disgust  and opposition  to  any  type  of resistance  to  those predatory persons
================
so actually  the  numbers of citizens  who  are  learning  and those  who have  carried  concealed  firearms
are  on the increase  along with  insurance  to protect  them from law enforcement  in the  event  they  may
 have  used   or been intercepted  after  self  defense  or simply  being  stopped  while  travelling
==================
  america   continues  to engage  in  military  actions  and  the  law enforcement  persons  are  increasingly
clothed  and  armed  mentally  and physically  to engage  with deadly  force  when feeling  threatened and  even  when  not  threatened ---there  may  be  some who feel that  the founders  of  this  country  enacted
 and embraced freedoms  that  run contrary  to the ambitions  means  of control  and  certain occasion  of governance ////
========================
  since  all US  citizens  are all  fattened  and disarmed   like sheep and  cattle
to those  from  other cultures  --they  are  a  herd   ready   obey --former  freedoms  considered foolishness
in the  paradise  of total love  and peace  tie  yellow  ribbons
and   burn all  nations  flags  erase  borders  make  museums  of armories
 still  the  fighter jets and bombers  dismantle  all  nuclear warheads
beach  the submarines and  enjoy   music  and the  arts  healing   medical care  food shelter  and kindness
  to species  trees  waters  atmosphere  --
======================================
  some  want  to  protect  //some need to be  protected  //some want  to  protect themselves
=======================================
what  do YOU want  ?????????????



We do have some common sense measures in place. 

You can't buy mail order, you have to have a background check run, you can't buy if you're a convicted felon or mentally ill, there are a number of prohibited items, not just automatic firing but those with features like short barrels, the dreaded bayonet lug; in some states there are long waiting periods, limits on guns per month, limits on magazine size, etc.  If your spouse has a restraining order they will confiscate your guns until it expires.  If you do a firearm crime there is usually a mandatory long prison sentence. 

It's not like there haven't been some attempts.  But a) this is not easy given the inventory already out there, and the unique American propensity for solving problems by shooting people, and b) most of these will have their impact, if there is any, on the more common deaths.  It's hard to see what kind of "common sense" control measure will work for the sophisticated lone sniper scenario. 

That's our approach though.  Ignore gang drivebys, convenience store holdups, resisting arrest, suicide, but react emotionally to the rare but highly publicized mass shooting.  Then enact something, anything, don't care if it works but it makes us feel better.


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« Reply #135 on: Dec 26, 2017, 06:05AM »

======================================
  some  want  to  protect  //some need to be  protected  //some want  to  protect themselves
=======================================
what  do YOU want  ?????????????

Ideally, to not live in a society where people are so scared of each other and paranoid that they take even more risky measures and try to talk themselves into a state of readiness to kill a stranger with no actual reason. Maybe instead, to live in a society where matters of life and death "protection" in the daily life are rare and people can focus on much better things.

illinois  ///chicago  --extremely  gun control  statutes  /// effectively  limiting ''legal'' use-ownership
  of those  who  might  be the  most exposed  to violent  crimes  home invasion  armed robbery  car jacking
  unlawful entry trespass  sexual assault  organized criminal groups  use   by  minors and  other  carriers  of 
   various  firearms  and other  weapons
Such localized rules are of little use in this type of issue.

I used to live in a dry town. All you had to do was go just past the town limits, and there was a grocery store selling beer and wine.

Like going down 95 through the Carolinas. The instant you get into South Carolina, the fireworks stores appear. And so north carolinians who want fireworks for celebrations get them readily and easily.
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« Reply #136 on: Dec 26, 2017, 08:20AM »

for   sure   // state  to state  '
  booze   right  next to   the rez
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