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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakPolls(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) What candidate do you think will be our next president?
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Question: What candidate do you think will be our next president? This is not a question about who you support, but rather who you think will win. Candidates listed in alphabetical order of last name.
Hillary Clinton - 36 (50.7%)
Ted Cruz - 4 (5.6%)
Bernie Sanders - 14 (19.7%)
Donald Trump - 17 (23.9%)
Total Voters: 70

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« on: Apr 06, 2016, 05:55AM »

What candidate do you think will be our next president? This is not a question about who you support, but rather who you think will win. Candidates listed in alphabetical order of last name.
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 06, 2016, 06:54AM »

I'm going to say Hillary for the following scenario:

1.  The Dump Trump movement succeeds in getting a Brokered Convention in Cleveland.  The delegates ignore both Trump and Cruz (mainstream Republicans hate them both) and put forth a dark horse in some later ballot.  Maybe Kasich, maybe JEB, maybe even Huntsman.

2.  Trump abrogates the agreement to support the candidate and runs a 3rd Party.  In many States he will have to run as a Write-In since the filing deadline needs to be several weeks before the election

3.  Hillary wins enough delegates to the Democratic convention to get nominated.  Maybe asks Bernie to be VP.

4.  In the General, many Republicans stay home.  Others will bolt and vote for Trump, siphoning votes from whomever the Republicans manage to nominate.  This also provides a strong coattail effect bringing in Democrats to the marginal House and Senate seats (often these are won by the Presidential party in Presidential Elections and won by the Opposition Party in By-elections).

With a grudging majority in the Senate, Hillary can nominate a Liberal to SCOTUS replacing Scalia, and another to replace Ruth Bader Ginzburg.  Who knows?  Maybe even Barack Obama (remember Taft?).

The Republican party splits into two factions: Republicans and TEA.  The TEA Party are the hard line Conservatives.  This also splits the electorate, with aging Boomers and Millennials joining the TEA Party.  Until enough Boomers die off this will be a permanent fracture on the Right.
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 06, 2016, 07:18AM »

I agree with Bruce's analysis and conclusions, except the part about boomers and millennials.

The republican party needs to be purged such that it represents the conservatives once again.

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« Reply #3 on: Apr 06, 2016, 07:46AM »

The Republican party splits into two factions: Republicans and TEA.  The TEA Party are the hard line Conservatives.  This also splits the electorate, with aging Boomers and Millennials joining the TEA Party.  Until enough Boomers die off this will be a permanent fracture on the Right.

Millennials in the TEA party? HAH!  Amazed Amazed  :/ :/ Eeek!

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« Reply #4 on: Apr 06, 2016, 08:46AM »

I'm going to hope it's none of the above.  There ARE other choices.
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 06, 2016, 08:52AM »

I'm going to hope it's none of the above.  There ARE other choices.

The Primary selection process has yielded these 4.

Now if you want to write in Mickey Mouse or None of the Above, that's another matter. ;-)

In a Brokered Convention (most likely for the Republicans) a dark horse may emerge.  Probably not Rubio.  I would lean to JEB Bush or Kasich.

I'm sure Joe Biden has wished the Hillary-Bernie race was closer with neither one winning so he could be a Dark Horse for the Democrats.
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 06, 2016, 08:56AM »

The Republican party splits into two factions: Republicans and TEA.  The TEA Party are the hard line Conservatives.  This also splits the electorate, with aging Boomers and Millennials joining the TEA Party.  Until enough Boomers die off this will be a permanent fracture on the Right.

I've been thinking the GOP needs to split and just get it done and over with for about 30 years now (the fanatics have just been too convenient for most of that time, before going all Palinstein and Trumpenstein on them), so we'll have at least two viable and rational parties. The new radical conservative and neocon types need to make their own party (TEA Party or whatever--they immediately and massively hijacked that one from the adult originators too), and the GOP can return to viability with the adults back in charge. Then most Americans may actually have a real choice between candidates.
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 06, 2016, 08:56AM »

The Primary selection process has yielded these 4.



Sure, from the Republican and Democrat parties.  You're implying those are the only people running. That isn't correct.
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 06, 2016, 09:08AM »

I picked Hillary, but I can image Cruz maybe winning...

-After a year of Trump, Cruz might be perceived as the sensible one. No matter what crazy thing he's done in the past it will always look less crazy than Trump.

-Outside of professional pundit people he's not well known. He could put on a new public face.

-I think the GOP can out fundraise the Dems this year. Hillary is not a candidate that the Dems have a big attachment to.


Millennials in the TEA party? HAH! 

It's the hats

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« Reply #9 on: Apr 06, 2016, 09:24AM »

Sure, from the Republican and Democrat parties.  You're implying those are the only people running. That isn't correct.
I can't figure why *anybody* would want that job. What a pain in the a***! No wonder why we have the current field of candidates.
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 06, 2016, 10:10AM »

I can't figure why *anybody* would want that job.

Because power evokes a response similar to cocaine.
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 06, 2016, 11:58AM »

Sanders.

Pay attention.
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 06, 2016, 12:30PM »

Sure, from the Republican and Democrat parties.  You're implying those are the only people running. That isn't correct.
Homer "I can vote third party!"

Kang "Go ahead, throw your vote away."



Kodos might be a better option,
Andy
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 06, 2016, 01:27PM »


"Go ahead, throw your vote away."



I will never feel bad about voting for someone who I think would do a better job.  I think the only reason more people don't vote for an alternative to R/D is because the media doesn't present any other option.  Far too many people rely on the media to tell them what their options are.

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« Reply #14 on: Apr 06, 2016, 01:53PM »

I would put current odds on Clinton. I think even if Sanders comes close to her delegate count, the establishment and super delegates would much rather see her. She is the most status quo after all.

And really, the GOP has no sign of a candidate that is tolerable by most of the population. Trump would bring more people to the poles against him than for him, and I get the feeling that if Trump went out of the way and people could focus on Cruz, they would dislike him even more.
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« Reply #15 on: Apr 06, 2016, 02:11PM »

I'm going to hope it's none of the above.  There ARE other choices.
Who are on enough ballots in enough states to win? Doubtful. Kasich has a better shot of taking it all the way.

And seems like the green and libertarian parties are currently little more than extreme versions of the GOP/Dems. Libertarian being the fiscal fantasies of the gop, and green being a socialist and hippie version of the dems.

The republican party needs to be purged such that it represents the conservatives once again.
Attempting to "purge" the party of non-conservatives is what opened them up to the current nonsense they are in now. You don't grow by getting more exclusive. And you certainly don't grow in the long term by putting forth a meaningless platform of opposition.
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« Reply #16 on: Apr 06, 2016, 02:23PM »

They all scare the crap out of me!

Wish there was a "None of the Above" selection.....
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« Reply #17 on: Apr 06, 2016, 02:48PM »

They all scare the crap out of me!

Wish there was a "None of the Above" selection.....


I would say that Bernie and Trump were the "none of the above" candidacies for people who are not satisfied with the result of past standard party establishment choices.



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« Reply #18 on: Apr 06, 2016, 03:52PM »

Bill Clinton will be FMOTUS

which would be weird

....maybe
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« Reply #19 on: Apr 06, 2016, 03:56PM »

Bill Clinton will be FMOTUS
 
which would be weird
 
....maybe

Wouldn't it be FGOTUS?
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« Reply #20 on: Apr 06, 2016, 04:03PM »


Wouldn't it be FGOTUS?

MFOTUS (if you are anti-Clinton)? Evil Evil
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« Reply #21 on: Apr 06, 2016, 05:25PM »

Who are on enough ballots in enough states to win? Doubtful.

Both the Libertarian and Green parties are on enough ballots to mathematically win the election.  That is why there is currently a lawsuit against the Commission on Presidential Debates for their nominees to be included.

In fact, this year, the Libertarian party will be on the ballot in all 50 states.

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« Reply #22 on: Apr 06, 2016, 06:35PM »

MFOTUS (if you are anti-Clinton)? Evil Evil

LOVE IT!@!!!!!

Maybe FWOTUS?    First Willie......?  hehehe



Eric
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« Reply #23 on: Apr 06, 2016, 09:53PM »

the masculine of lady is lord, not gentleman.
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« Reply #24 on: Apr 06, 2016, 10:25PM »

Hi, I did not vote and don't want to make this too political.... but I fear Trump + Putin = Nuclear combo.

/Tom
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« Reply #25 on: Apr 07, 2016, 12:13AM »

the masculine of lady is lord, not gentleman.

Yeah, but when they asked Bill what he'd be, he said "first gentleman".  Wonder if they still have to play the little song for him? ;-)
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« Reply #26 on: Apr 07, 2016, 03:57AM »

the masculine of lady is lord, not gentleman.

When it's used as a personal title of nobility (prefix), yeah.
 
The title of the position is First Lady, not Lady Michelle or Lady Laura ... etc.
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« Reply #27 on: Apr 07, 2016, 06:35AM »

When it's used as a personal title of nobility (prefix), yeah.

Lord and lady mean housemaster and housemistress (lit. bread-keeper and bread-kneader) respectively so, strictly speaking, Exzaclee is correct.

Whether or not Bill could accurately be described as a "housemaster" I'll leave to others to argue. Evil
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« Reply #28 on: Apr 07, 2016, 06:54AM »

the masculine of lady is lord, not gentleman.

Which is why it is so common to address an audience with, "Good evening, ladies and lords..."  :)
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« Reply #29 on: Apr 07, 2016, 06:59AM »

that's how i do it, if i'm not introducing the band in spanish.
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« Reply #30 on: Apr 07, 2016, 07:52AM »

Which is why it is so common to address an audience with, "Good evening, ladies and lords..."  :)

"Lords, ladies, and gentlemen" was once quite common.

One can be a gentleman without being a lord in any sense, and the courtesy is traditionally extended to all women (well, all gentlewomen).
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« Reply #31 on: Apr 07, 2016, 07:54AM »

Hillary will be the Dem candidate.
Trump will be the Rep candidate.
Both parties, have equally failed the people of the USA.
Both parties should be banned, or disbanded.
They no longer represent "the people's" best interest.

Trump will win.
No, I did not vote for Trump in the primary.
But he will win.
The people are tired of the "Establishment" in DC, and are sending a clear signal.
Even I can recognize that.

T.
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« Reply #32 on: Apr 07, 2016, 08:27AM »

...introducing the band in spanish.

which I assume goes something like "dames and cavalrymen", yes?
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« Reply #33 on: Apr 07, 2016, 08:52AM »


The people are tired of the "Establishment" in DC, and are sending a clear signal.
Even I can recognize that.

T.

The people?

I think not.

This is a classic case of a small culture being sure everyone else agrees with them.  The extremists supporting Trump are just that, extremists.  They carry undue weight in primaries because nobody cares about primaries.  There is no way they represent "the people." 
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« Reply #34 on: Apr 07, 2016, 08:59AM »

The people?

I think not.

This is a classic case of a small culture being sure everyone else agrees with them.  The extremists supporting Trump are just that, extremists.  They carry undue weight in primaries because nobody cares about primaries.  There is no way they represent "the people." 

I know real people who would like to vote for Trump so that the establishment Republicans will *lose their jobs*. In their mind, Trump will lose and his negative coat tails would bring more down with him. So, as with game theory, you don't always vote for the person you want to win but with your ultimate objective: to have politicians lose their jobs. "You're fired."
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« Reply #35 on: Apr 07, 2016, 09:39AM »

The people?
 
I think not.
 
This is a classic case of a small culture being sure everyone else agrees with them.  The extremists supporting Trump are just that, extremists.  They carry undue weight in primaries because nobody cares about primaries.  There is no way they represent "the people."

When I first saw this poll I thought it would be interesting to add two more questions:
 
My choice is the candidate I support.
My choice is not the candidate I support.
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« Reply #36 on: Apr 07, 2016, 10:03AM »

Lots of times the choice is between the "lesser of two weevils".

Nobody is a perfect candidate for everybody.  What is it Lincoln said?  "You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time".
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« Reply #37 on: Apr 07, 2016, 10:07AM »

Lots Most of times the choice is between the "lesser of two weevils".


Fixed it for ya
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« Reply #38 on: Apr 07, 2016, 10:10AM »

The people?

I think not.

This is a classic case of a small culture being sure everyone else agrees with them.  The extremists supporting Trump are just that, extremists.  They carry undue weight in primaries because nobody cares about primaries.  There is no way they represent "the people." 

Hold that thought.

Get back to me after the election....
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« Reply #39 on: Apr 07, 2016, 11:00AM »

What is it Lincoln said?  "You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time..."

Between just those two options you can get away with a lot.   :/
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« Reply #40 on: Apr 08, 2016, 05:37AM »

That sounds more like a Barnum and Bailey quote.  :D
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« Reply #41 on: Apr 08, 2016, 06:54AM »

I've read that the "You can fool..." quote can't be clearly linked to Lincoln and that it only surfaced 50 years later as a recollection by someone who had heard him speak.

However, a version of that saying appears in French a couple hundred years earlier. 
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« Reply #42 on: Apr 08, 2016, 09:22AM »

Barnum said "There's a sucker born every minute".

I would totally believe that Lincoln had read of the earlier version and just found it fit what he was trying to get across.  I'd also believe that he didn't say it.  But it's a great saw anyway.
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« Reply #43 on: Apr 08, 2016, 09:41AM »

I'd rather wait until there are actually 2 candidates to choose from.
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« Reply #44 on: Apr 08, 2016, 09:44AM »

I'd rather wait until there are actually 2 candidates to choose from.

You may be waiting until 2020.  This year there may be three. ;-)
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« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2016, 08:10AM »

Well, the question was, "what candidate do you THINK...".
I am NOT voting for Hillary Rodham Peron in November, but that's who I think will win.
That woman is in DESPERATE need of lessons in elocution.  Her voice when she gets strident goes WAY beyond fingernails on the chalkboard and strangled cats. I change the station when I hear her campaign rants on TV or radio. If she happens to be on NPR, I change it faster than I do when it's pledge week.
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« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2016, 08:44AM »

Well, the question was, "what candidate do you THINK...".
I am NOT voting for Hillary Rodham Peron in November, but that's who I think will win.
That woman is in DESPERATE need of lessons in elocution.  Her voice when she gets strident goes WAY beyond fingernails on the chalkboard and strangled cats. I change the station when I hear her campaign rants on TV or radio. If she happens to be on NPR, I change it faster than I do when it's pledge week.


So you prefer BS Artist Trump? Evil
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« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2016, 09:25AM »

 Our friend caught Donald's show when he was in Lynden Washington last weekend. The thing that stood out for him was that Don is no spring chicken. In fact, he is 70 years of age. And, according to my friend, the grind  of the campaign was showing.
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« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2016, 09:42AM »

Hypothetical: If a candidate becomes medically unable to stand after they have collected sufficient delegates to see the other candidates off, what happens? Do they perhaps recount the delegates from all the districts with the votes for that candidate removed?
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« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2016, 09:45AM »

If a candidate becomes unable to continue before the convention, the convention is at liberty to choose anybody else.

If a candidate dies during the election period, the election continues and the vice-presidential candidate is the presidential candidate.  If the president-elect dies before he can take office, the vice-president-elect is sworn in.

We have a rather old crew of candidates and I think more than at any time in history any of these is likely.

Incidentally, if Hillary is indicted of any serious crime, she becomes ineligible.  Same for the Donald.
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« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2016, 09:53AM »

Hypothetical: If a candidate becomes medically unable to stand after they have collected sufficient delegates to see the other candidates off, what happens? Do they perhaps recount the delegates from all the districts with the votes for that candidate removed?

Quote
If a candidate becomes unable to continue before the convention, the convention is at liberty to choose anybody else.
I don't think there is a party rule for that and there certainly is no law on that.


A responsible candidate would step aside and release his delegates to vote for someone else, but AFAIK neither party has an official mechanism for such a situation. If he has the bound delegates to win on the first ballot, he wins.

Thomas Eagleton gave up the VP nom in '72 after he was revealed to be a former psych patient but I don't think they had or now have any official way to dump a candidate like that.
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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2016, 11:18AM »

There certainly is no law about it, but if a candidate were to become permanently incapacitated (like a stroke) or die, bound or not the delegates aren't required to vote for him.

And we don't do a "redos" on the Primaries either.  Our Election Day is set as the 2nd Tuesday in November and each party will submit a candidate.  This is a difference from Britain (and many other countries) where you can call a new election at any time.
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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2016, 11:19AM »

I Hope that this poll is wrong.  I do believe that "bs artist Trump" can and will beat " witch Hillary".
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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2016, 11:21AM »

I Hope that this poll is wrong.  I do believe that "bs artist Trump" can and will beat " witch Hillary".

I think the Donald has higher negatives than Evita Hillary.  That means that more people will vote for Hillary as a protest against Trump than will vote for Trump as a protest against Hillary.

It's really sad when the two most likely candidates are encumbered with so much baggage.
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« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2016, 11:26AM »

Is it BS Artist Trump or John Baron, or John Barron, or John Miller?

I'm confused, not sure who to vote for.
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« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2016, 11:33AM »

There certainly is no law about it, but if a candidate were to become permanently incapacitated (like a stroke) or die, bound or not the delegates aren't required to vote for him.

You can cite that, right?

I'm extremely doubtful that delegates are automatically released just because a candidate is reported sick.

On whose say-so would this happen?



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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2016, 11:45AM »

There certainly is no law about it, but if a candidate were to become permanently incapacitated (like a stroke) or die, bound or not the delegates aren't required to vote for him.
I'm extremely doubtful that delegates are automatically released just because a candidate is reported sick.

Notice a slight difference between what you're arguing against and what Bruce actually posted there?
 
Eh?
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« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2016, 11:57AM »

Robert Kennedy was assassinated in 1968 in the middle of the Presidential Primary race.  I'm sure his "pledged delegates" were not required to vote for him at the Convention.
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« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2016, 12:22PM »

Trump was born in 1946, and was in his early 20s during the Vietnam years. I assume he didn't serve in Vietnam. How did he manage to avoid serving?
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« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2016, 12:27PM »

Robert Kennedy was assassinated in 1968 in the middle of the Presidential Primary race.  I'm sure his "pledged delegates" were not required to vote for him at the Convention.

Most of them voted for a guy who didn't even run in the primaries; Chicago was a right mess.

Right now, my gut says Clinton, for better or worse, but one or more Wallaces in the mix could really screw things up.  Even without, there's so much sheer bipartisan hatred of both Clinton and Trump that it's impossible to anticipate what will happen.

I've not seen or heard of anything like it since, well, 1968.

Man, Nixon has never looked so good.  :-P
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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2016, 01:22PM »

Trump was born in 1946, and was in his early 20s during the Vietnam years. I assume he didn't serve in Vietnam. How did he manage to avoid serving?

Probably the same way I did.  I had a student deferment until I graduated college and then was working for a Government contractor.  Got a high enough number in the lottery.  Note that for my Draft Board (may have been his as well) you were safe if you were over 195.

Of course Trump's daddy had lots of money and maybe some cash exchanged hands so sonny boy got excused.
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« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2016, 08:35PM »

So you prefer BS Artist Trump? Evil
I have said in other forums that I think this is the weakest field of candidates across the board since I started voting in 1980.  I don't trust Hillary. While I find a lot of what Trump has done during the primaries repugnant, (my previous candidate of choice, Sen. Rubio (who I HOPE will run in 2020) dropped out, giving a memorable concession speech and giving me hope for the future of the GOP), I prefer him to HRC.
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« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2016, 01:41AM »

So you prefer BS Artist Trump? Evil
In my opinion, the best politicians are skilled tellers of white lies. This is a trait shared by the best BS artists and the best salespeople. Politicians are becoming less and less leaders and more and more salespersons.
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« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2016, 03:36AM »

But should we encourage them to do this by voting for the BSiest ones? An adept politician is able to maintain an elastic relationship with the truth, but one worth following never forgets that they are doing so in the service of the people rather than their own self-interest. The US deserves waaaay better than Trump, who is possibly the most self-interested individual I've ever observed. Goodness, it deserves better than Hillary Clinton, but if the choice is between her and the lying, bullying Trump, then surely the choice is immediately clear for Clinton.

After 6 years of rule by Public Relations under David Cameron in the UK, and 10 years of it under Tony Blair, I can tell you that ruling politicians that are good at lying to other national politicians are also good at lying to those that they are responsible for.

Better luck with your presidential candidates in 2020, USA. We are stuck with Cameron's Conservatives until that year too.

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« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2016, 04:24AM »

But should we encourage them to do this by voting for the BSiest ones? An adept politician is able to maintain an elastic relationship with the truth, but one worth following never forgets that they are doing so in the service of the people rather than their own self-interest. The US deserves waaaay better than Trump, who is possibly the most self-interested individual I've ever observed. Goodness, it deserves better than Hillary Clinton, but if the choice is between her and the lying, bullying Trump, then surely the choice is immediately clear for Clinton.

After 6 years of rule by Public Relations under David Cameron in the UK, and 10 years of it under Tony Blair, I can tell you that ruling politicians that are good at lying to other national politicians are also good at lying to those that they are responsible for.

Better luck with your presidential candidates in 2020, USA. We are stuck with Cameron's Conservatives until that year too.


Yes, it is a poor choice and we deserve better but honestly who would want that job? Anyway my point is that they are *all* liars. I expect them all to lie. The discriminator between candidates should not be "who is the best BS artists (Clinton vs. Trump)" but another set of traits/positions.

One more point: everybody and everything is self serving. That should not be a discriminator either.
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« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2016, 05:20AM »

It is obvious that not all politicians prioritise self-interest equally or lie with the same motives. For those as extreme as Trump, it appears to crowd out the sense of duty almost entirely. The currently-ruling UK Conservative party have hit on a wizard scheme - they run down state assets that were built with public money by underfunding, then when the assets look a bit ratty they give them away to their mates to asset-strip in the name of competition. Then when they leave politics, said mates give them lucrative 'consultant' positions to the asset-stripping companies in thanks for the legislative gifts.

That is self-interest in action in politics, and a socially dangerous force it is too. Does the USA really want to gift Trump 4 years in which to abuse the office of POTUS with similar shenanigans?
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« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2016, 05:31AM »

It is obvious that not all politicians prioritise self-interest equally or lie with the same motives.
--snip

It is not at all obvious to glean truth or motives from expert liars. Both candidates are liars. Both candidate have self-interested motives.
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« Reply #67 on: May 19, 2016, 05:40AM »

Probably the same way I did.  I had a student deferment until I graduated college

Also, after graduation, Trump managed to wangle a medical deferment.

Quote
Note that for my Draft Board (may have been his as well) you were safe if you were over 195.

356 is the number I've seen for Trump.
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« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2016, 05:42AM »

It is not at all obvious to glean truth or motives from expert liars. Both candidates are liars. Both candidate have self-interested motives.

So we shouldn't try to pin them down? I'm getting a little baffled here by what you're saying.
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« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2016, 07:58AM »

So we shouldn't try to pin them down? I'm getting a little baffled here by what you're saying.

The job of a politician, diplomat, public relations expert, salesperson, lawyer and the like is to expertly tell their side of the story and compel others to move in the direction they prefer to support their own motives. They will hide the truth when it does not support their self-interested motives.

It shouldn't be baffling at all. It is very simple. To keep it very simple: they *all* lie. It is naive to believe that *any* of them are not BS artists.
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« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2016, 08:18AM »

That's not what I'm baffled about. Misunderstandings are multiplying here. Perhaps we should start again:

You wrote: "Anyway my point is that they are *all* liars. I expect them all to lie. The discriminator between candidates should not be "who is the best BS artists (Clinton vs. Trump)" but another set of traits/positions.

One more point: everybody and everything is self serving. That should not be a discriminator either."


This reads to me that you are saying that we should not attempt to judge politicians on their words and actions at all. Just throw out 100% of them. And judge them based on some other unspecified metric (but what is it?).

I have more optimism than this - not 100% of successful high level politicians are shysters and fraudsters motivated mainly by personal gain, and I maintain that it is often much more possible than your words suggest to spot when an attempted gulling is taking place and which of them are making out like bandits. At least it is here - perhaps the US system is less good at holding politicians to account?

Sure, most of them are appallingly untrustworthy people, and the skills of an appallingly untrustworthy person are needed to survive in that world. But that makes the respect due to those that survive while not being a dreadful person all the greater - and increases the encouragement that we should give to those that seem decent people (which is not at all the same thing as things like "having the common touch" - many candidates in the US fake a 'folksy' charm that deceives many - e.g. GWB).
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« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2016, 08:56AM »

Trump

I also think the US has lost its mind.
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« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2016, 09:15AM »



 The currently-ruling UK Conservative party have hit on a wizard scheme - they run down state assets that were built with public money by underfunding, then when the assets look a bit ratty they give them away to their mates to asset-strip in the name of competition. Then when they leave politics, said mates give them lucrative 'consultant' positions to the asset-stripping companies in thanks for the legislative gifts.


THat has been the GOP modus operandi for more than a generation.
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« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2016, 09:31AM »

The US Republican party and the UK Conservative party have for a long time been instinctive fellow travellers. So often our right wing looks to the non-evangelical portion of your right wing for inspiration. That said though, the privatisation of public utilities in this manner in the UK has been going on since the 1980s - it's part of the project launched by Thatcher and Reagan. But it has truly spun out of control in the last year or two here as the Conservatives actually take on the much-beloved NHS and their full agenda starts to dawn on people (too late.. too late...).
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« Reply #74 on: May 20, 2016, 04:11PM »

I'll be voting for the two term governor.  A vote which will allow me to sleep at night.  Why so many people seem to be saying "I'll vote for ____ even though it's a terrible choice" is beyond my comprehension.  Most of the country seems to be unhappy with their government but yet they keep voting for the same damn people...   :(
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« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2016, 04:24PM »

I'm assuming you mean the Libertarian.  He's a viable alternative for any dissatisfied Republican.  Except he doesn't want Government in our bedrooms, bathrooms, or women's reproductive organs. ;-)
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« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2016, 04:37PM »

He's a viable alternative for any dissatisfied Republican. 

I'd say Gary Johnson is a viable alternative for any dissatisfied American.  In fact, I'd bet that many people would be surprised who they side with if they looked at the issues, decided where they stand on them, and then narrowed down their choices without any regard to party line.

Instead, we watch TV, think it has to be Clinton or Trump, and repeat the process of being pissed at our government.
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« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2016, 07:51PM »

My personal convictions actually line up pretty exactly of those of the Green Party, and I will vote for any Green Party candidate at any level lower than statewide. THat said, we live with a two party system, and one of those parties is TOXIC. I WILL vote Democrat at all levels statewide and above in simple self defense. PERIOD.
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« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2016, 10:01PM »

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« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2016, 04:04AM »


Hilarious. Where's this from?
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« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2016, 05:50AM »

That's a Toles cartoon from the Washington Post, October 2010.

Maybe he picked it up from Daryl Cagle's site (www.cagle.com).
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« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2016, 10:00AM »

Hilarious. Where's this from?

I don't know where it is from originally.  I just new I had seen it somewhere and started Google image searching until I found it.  I'm glad you found it humorous but I also hope you saw how true it is.
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« Reply #82 on: May 22, 2016, 04:57AM »

It is funny, but it is not particularly accurate. IT is, however what those who pull the strings in the GOP want you to believe. Positive, progressive things actually DO get done when Dems control the Congress. We have 50 years of evidence of the truth of that from 1930-1980. And, 2008-2010 was the most productive two years in this country since 1980.
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« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2016, 07:30AM »

IT is, however what those who pull the strings in the GOP want you to believe.


Yeah.  That's it. Strange though.  The comic depicts Republicans being the problem too.  That seems like an odd thing for the GOP to want me to believe.  :/

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« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2016, 08:59AM »

THe GOP didn't post the cartoon.
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« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2016, 09:03AM »

I don't know where it is from originally.  I just new I had seen it somewhere and started Google image searching until I found it.  I'm glad you found it humorous but I also hope you saw how true it is.
Of course I see how true and pathetic it is. That's what makes it funny. As Heinlein identified in his book, A Stranger in a Strange Land, humor includes three elements: surprise, truth, sadness (or in this case, "pathetic-ness" if that's even a word).
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« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2016, 09:56AM »

THe GOP didn't post the cartoon.


What point are you trying to make?  Do you even know or are you just trolling?
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« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2016, 02:58PM »

What point are you trying to make?  Do you even know or are you just trolling?

THat it is in the interests of those who run the GOP for the average American to believe there is no difference in the outcomes regardless of which party is in power. Since Bill CLinton sold out the unions and delivered the Democrat Party to the same puppeteers who have run the GOP since its inception, the difference between the parties has shrunken immensely, but it is still there. One need only contrast the productivity of the Congress from 2008-2010 with that of those since then to see it. Trump may win this election because the millennials, who just became the largest generation, see, and are the victims of, what a disaster the baby boom generation has made of things, and the establishment they have let take control. THey want no part of it, and if enough of them are willing to vote for a shallow, misogynistic, bullying demagogue, Hillary and that establishment are in big trouble.
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