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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakPolls(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) What candidate do you think will be our next president?
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Question: What candidate do you think will be our next president? This is not a question about who you support, but rather who you think will win. Candidates listed in alphabetical order of last name.
Hillary Clinton - 36 (50.7%)
Ted Cruz - 4 (5.6%)
Bernie Sanders - 14 (19.7%)
Donald Trump - 17 (23.9%)
Total Voters: 70

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BGuttman
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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2016, 01:22PM »

Trump was born in 1946, and was in his early 20s during the Vietnam years. I assume he didn't serve in Vietnam. How did he manage to avoid serving?

Probably the same way I did.  I had a student deferment until I graduated college and then was working for a Government contractor.  Got a high enough number in the lottery.  Note that for my Draft Board (may have been his as well) you were safe if you were over 195.

Of course Trump's daddy had lots of money and maybe some cash exchanged hands so sonny boy got excused.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2016, 08:35PM »

So you prefer BS Artist Trump? Evil
I have said in other forums that I think this is the weakest field of candidates across the board since I started voting in 1980.  I don't trust Hillary. While I find a lot of what Trump has done during the primaries repugnant, (my previous candidate of choice, Sen. Rubio (who I HOPE will run in 2020) dropped out, giving a memorable concession speech and giving me hope for the future of the GOP), I prefer him to HRC.
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Daniel De Kok
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« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2016, 01:41AM »

So you prefer BS Artist Trump? Evil
In my opinion, the best politicians are skilled tellers of white lies. This is a trait shared by the best BS artists and the best salespeople. Politicians are becoming less and less leaders and more and more salespersons.
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MoominDave

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« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2016, 03:36AM »

But should we encourage them to do this by voting for the BSiest ones? An adept politician is able to maintain an elastic relationship with the truth, but one worth following never forgets that they are doing so in the service of the people rather than their own self-interest. The US deserves waaaay better than Trump, who is possibly the most self-interested individual I've ever observed. Goodness, it deserves better than Hillary Clinton, but if the choice is between her and the lying, bullying Trump, then surely the choice is immediately clear for Clinton.

After 6 years of rule by Public Relations under David Cameron in the UK, and 10 years of it under Tony Blair, I can tell you that ruling politicians that are good at lying to other national politicians are also good at lying to those that they are responsible for.

Better luck with your presidential candidates in 2020, USA. We are stuck with Cameron's Conservatives until that year too.

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Dave Taylor

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« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2016, 04:24AM »

But should we encourage them to do this by voting for the BSiest ones? An adept politician is able to maintain an elastic relationship with the truth, but one worth following never forgets that they are doing so in the service of the people rather than their own self-interest. The US deserves waaaay better than Trump, who is possibly the most self-interested individual I've ever observed. Goodness, it deserves better than Hillary Clinton, but if the choice is between her and the lying, bullying Trump, then surely the choice is immediately clear for Clinton.

After 6 years of rule by Public Relations under David Cameron in the UK, and 10 years of it under Tony Blair, I can tell you that ruling politicians that are good at lying to other national politicians are also good at lying to those that they are responsible for.

Better luck with your presidential candidates in 2020, USA. We are stuck with Cameron's Conservatives until that year too.


Yes, it is a poor choice and we deserve better but honestly who would want that job? Anyway my point is that they are *all* liars. I expect them all to lie. The discriminator between candidates should not be "who is the best BS artists (Clinton vs. Trump)" but another set of traits/positions.

One more point: everybody and everything is self serving. That should not be a discriminator either.
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« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2016, 05:20AM »

It is obvious that not all politicians prioritise self-interest equally or lie with the same motives. For those as extreme as Trump, it appears to crowd out the sense of duty almost entirely. The currently-ruling UK Conservative party have hit on a wizard scheme - they run down state assets that were built with public money by underfunding, then when the assets look a bit ratty they give them away to their mates to asset-strip in the name of competition. Then when they leave politics, said mates give them lucrative 'consultant' positions to the asset-stripping companies in thanks for the legislative gifts.

That is self-interest in action in politics, and a socially dangerous force it is too. Does the USA really want to gift Trump 4 years in which to abuse the office of POTUS with similar shenanigans?
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Dave Taylor

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« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2016, 05:31AM »

It is obvious that not all politicians prioritise self-interest equally or lie with the same motives.
--snip

It is not at all obvious to glean truth or motives from expert liars. Both candidates are liars. Both candidate have self-interested motives.
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« Reply #67 on: May 19, 2016, 05:40AM »

Probably the same way I did.  I had a student deferment until I graduated college

Also, after graduation, Trump managed to wangle a medical deferment.

Quote
Note that for my Draft Board (may have been his as well) you were safe if you were over 195.

356 is the number I've seen for Trump.
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« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2016, 05:42AM »

It is not at all obvious to glean truth or motives from expert liars. Both candidates are liars. Both candidate have self-interested motives.

So we shouldn't try to pin them down? I'm getting a little baffled here by what you're saying.
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Dave Taylor

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« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2016, 07:58AM »

So we shouldn't try to pin them down? I'm getting a little baffled here by what you're saying.

The job of a politician, diplomat, public relations expert, salesperson, lawyer and the like is to expertly tell their side of the story and compel others to move in the direction they prefer to support their own motives. They will hide the truth when it does not support their self-interested motives.

It shouldn't be baffling at all. It is very simple. To keep it very simple: they *all* lie. It is naive to believe that *any* of them are not BS artists.
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« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2016, 08:18AM »

That's not what I'm baffled about. Misunderstandings are multiplying here. Perhaps we should start again:

You wrote: "Anyway my point is that they are *all* liars. I expect them all to lie. The discriminator between candidates should not be "who is the best BS artists (Clinton vs. Trump)" but another set of traits/positions.

One more point: everybody and everything is self serving. That should not be a discriminator either."


This reads to me that you are saying that we should not attempt to judge politicians on their words and actions at all. Just throw out 100% of them. And judge them based on some other unspecified metric (but what is it?).

I have more optimism than this - not 100% of successful high level politicians are shysters and fraudsters motivated mainly by personal gain, and I maintain that it is often much more possible than your words suggest to spot when an attempted gulling is taking place and which of them are making out like bandits. At least it is here - perhaps the US system is less good at holding politicians to account?

Sure, most of them are appallingly untrustworthy people, and the skills of an appallingly untrustworthy person are needed to survive in that world. But that makes the respect due to those that survive while not being a dreadful person all the greater - and increases the encouragement that we should give to those that seem decent people (which is not at all the same thing as things like "having the common touch" - many candidates in the US fake a 'folksy' charm that deceives many - e.g. GWB).
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Dave Taylor

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« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2016, 08:56AM »

Trump

I also think the US has lost its mind.
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Russ White

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« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2016, 09:15AM »



 The currently-ruling UK Conservative party have hit on a wizard scheme - they run down state assets that were built with public money by underfunding, then when the assets look a bit ratty they give them away to their mates to asset-strip in the name of competition. Then when they leave politics, said mates give them lucrative 'consultant' positions to the asset-stripping companies in thanks for the legislative gifts.


THat has been the GOP modus operandi for more than a generation.
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« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2016, 09:31AM »

The US Republican party and the UK Conservative party have for a long time been instinctive fellow travellers. So often our right wing looks to the non-evangelical portion of your right wing for inspiration. That said though, the privatisation of public utilities in this manner in the UK has been going on since the 1980s - it's part of the project launched by Thatcher and Reagan. But it has truly spun out of control in the last year or two here as the Conservatives actually take on the much-beloved NHS and their full agenda starts to dawn on people (too late.. too late...).
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Dave Taylor

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« Reply #74 on: May 20, 2016, 04:11PM »

I'll be voting for the two term governor.  A vote which will allow me to sleep at night.  Why so many people seem to be saying "I'll vote for ____ even though it's a terrible choice" is beyond my comprehension.  Most of the country seems to be unhappy with their government but yet they keep voting for the same damn people...   :(
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BGuttman
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« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2016, 04:24PM »

I'm assuming you mean the Libertarian.  He's a viable alternative for any dissatisfied Republican.  Except he doesn't want Government in our bedrooms, bathrooms, or women's reproductive organs. ;-)
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2016, 04:37PM »

He's a viable alternative for any dissatisfied Republican. 

I'd say Gary Johnson is a viable alternative for any dissatisfied American.  In fact, I'd bet that many people would be surprised who they side with if they looked at the issues, decided where they stand on them, and then narrowed down their choices without any regard to party line.

Instead, we watch TV, think it has to be Clinton or Trump, and repeat the process of being pissed at our government.
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« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2016, 07:51PM »

My personal convictions actually line up pretty exactly of those of the Green Party, and I will vote for any Green Party candidate at any level lower than statewide. THat said, we live with a two party system, and one of those parties is TOXIC. I WILL vote Democrat at all levels statewide and above in simple self defense. PERIOD.
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« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2016, 10:01PM »

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patrickosmith

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« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2016, 04:04AM »


Hilarious. Where's this from?
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