Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1087089 Posts in 71983 Topics- by 19233 Members - Latest Member: Midnight1961
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, slide advantage) Elkhart-made Holton TR181 bass trombone report
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Elkhart-made Holton TR181 bass trombone report  (Read 5225 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
armjstp

*
Offline Offline

Location: Virginia
Joined: Oct 6, 2007
Posts: 563

View Profile
« on: Apr 30, 2016, 03:46PM »

Holton has been completely integrated into Conn-Selmer portfolio for years. The production was moved to Conn-Selmer's Vincent Bach division in Elkhart, IN.  This is a short report, but photo-heavy. Let's see what's changed after Conn-Selmer buyout.

1. No more chrome-plated slide cork barrel. The material has also changed from brass to nickel-silver. Lacquered

2. Slide lock ring is now lacquered nickel-silver

3. Outer slide is interchangeable with Bach 50. The width is exact.

4. New barrel shape inner slide stocking

5. Slide crook guard has changed from Holton design to Bach. Bach crook, too?

6. Bell lock nut is now nickel-silver

7. Model and serial number engraving has changed a bit. The engraving is now deeper and more uniform

8. Rotor number is clearly engraved

9. Finally Holton correctly engrave slide model number. No more slide production sequence, however

10. New Bach-style case with dual handles. New "Holton" logo on bell and case

11. Comes with Bach rebadged "Holton" 1 1/2G with classic Holton logo
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 08:13AM by armjstp » Logged

The Marching Virginians
Yamaha YBL-830 XENO
EWadie99
The Curious One

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sterling Heights, Michigan
Joined: Jan 22, 2016
Posts: 501
"Bass Trombone! It's like a musical bazooka!"


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Apr 30, 2016, 03:50PM »

What will the photos of it be like?
Logged

Ethan Wadie
Adlai E. Stevenson High School
Adlai E. Stevenson High School Titan Marching Band
Adlai E. Stevenson High School Jazz Ensemble
Adlai E. Stevenson High School Wind Ensemble
Bones:
Besson BE 639
Getzen 1062FD
armjstp

*
Offline Offline

Location: Virginia
Joined: Oct 6, 2007
Posts: 563

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Apr 30, 2016, 03:51PM »










« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 07:25AM by armjstp » Logged

The Marching Virginians
Yamaha YBL-830 XENO
armjstp

*
Offline Offline

Location: Virginia
Joined: Oct 6, 2007
Posts: 563

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Apr 30, 2016, 04:39PM »















« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 07:28AM by armjstp » Logged

The Marching Virginians
Yamaha YBL-830 XENO
armjstp

*
Offline Offline

Location: Virginia
Joined: Oct 6, 2007
Posts: 563

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Apr 30, 2016, 04:42PM »

















« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 07:32AM by armjstp » Logged

The Marching Virginians
Yamaha YBL-830 XENO
HouBassTrombone

*
Offline Offline

Location: Houston, TX
Joined: Nov 19, 2008
Posts: 2697
"Just play because you love to."


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Apr 30, 2016, 04:44PM »

Looks good IMO. Of course sad to see more Holton parts going away.
Logged

Why am I not practicing?????
greenbean
*
Offline Offline

Location: California
Joined: Dec 26, 2012
Posts: 1554
"Brass Kahuna"


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Apr 30, 2016, 07:47PM »

How does it play?...
Logged

--Yamaha 620G bass w/ Shires HW bell
armjstp

*
Offline Offline

Location: Virginia
Joined: Oct 6, 2007
Posts: 563

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Apr 30, 2016, 08:04PM »

Plays OK with original slide. Pretty tight, focus, and with more resistance. Put Bach slide on...BOOM! XENO slide on...BOOM! Much, much better than original slide and even better than my school's 50B. I bet the original lead pipe sucks. Only big TR181 drawback is not rotor, but leadpipe. Jupiter XO bass use small rotor, too, but not stuffy at all.

Outer slide is Bach exact width, plus new Bach crook guard probably mean TR181 now use Bach 50B crook? Just my guess.

Slide action is amazing. Better than Yamaha. Thanks to the new inner tubes, (and better Stradivarius workforce?)
Logged

The Marching Virginians
Yamaha YBL-830 XENO
octavposaune

*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle area
Joined: Jan 1, 2009
Posts: 3007

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Apr 30, 2016, 10:39PM »

Bach and Holton slides are the same width.  The crooks are slightly different shapes, the Holtons are a bit squarer than bachs.

Benn
Logged
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2200

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2016, 05:56AM »

Take note that the F attachment left thumb spatula is attached to the brace so that it is operated to the RIGHT of the left thumb.


EXACTLY like the old Elkhart Conns.
If you've ever played an Elkie you'll know that it is effortless to hold, and it plays much better than other horns for a simple ergonomic reason-- when you engage the valve only the tip of the thumb moves. You don't have some long floppy attachment fulcrum shifting the whole horn on your chops.

Thanks for the photos-- they really "take me back". The old plastic/nylon linkages on the valves! WOW! If you wanted those in the day you had to go to the hobby store- buy the correct plastic Revell plastic model of an armoured tank, and salvage the model plastic parts to use on your horn!

I also note that the valves and tubing are recessed BEHIND the head. No bulging into the neck.....like a Thayer valve on the modern horns.

You can hold this horn.
It is a time travel marvel.
Seriously, if I didn't already have a bass I'd short list this one in my top three choices just because you can hold it and blow it with a human body, not a body that has to be painfully adapted to fit some bean-counter's dream up at Conn-Selmer HQ!
Logged
wgwbassbone
*
Offline Offline

Location: West Hartford, CT
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 1838

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2016, 06:05AM »

Too bad the horn is still overly braced.
Logged

Holton TR 180 MV 1 and 1/2G
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2200

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2016, 06:57AM »

Yes, wgw, I see your point. By modern standards it is. It is convoluted, and would be a nightmare to work on for repair.

That said, it is still a Holton. If you don't want a Holton, don't buy a Holton. hah hhhahha

I'd be willing to bet that if you stuck to the 1 1/2G sized mouthpiece, that is about as large as Holton offered back in the day, you'd find the over-bracing a comfort to you. I owned a TR-180 in a city that had three or four TR-180 players working. This was in the day when Conn had moved to Abilene, so no Abilenes need apply for work, or could be found, and Bach horns were impossible to find.
You had to play a used Holton, because that was what was available.

I think that if you play "time machine" with a Tr-181 it would work. Nothing bigger than a 1 1/2G on it. When Van Haney was still doing the R&D for both King, and Holton, he eventually adopted the BENGE 1 1/2G as his personal mouthpiece, because they were a smidge larger than a stock Bach model. The 1 1/4 hadn't been invented yet, and the Benge 1 1/2G was a clone of a Mount Vernon 1 1/2G....which can be sometimes larger than a modern 1 1/2G.
Logged
Horn Builder

*
Offline Offline

Location: Jackson WI
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
Posts: 1655

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2016, 07:06AM »

In regards lever geometry, there is no inherent improvement in simply having the lever go under your thumb, like the Elkhart Conn's, as opposed to over. Good lever action is dependent and good lever geometry and execution. Have you ever played a Mt Vernon-very early Elkhart Bach? They had a lever that goes under the thumb, just like Conn and this Holton, but the lever was so poorly designed that the throw was extraordinarily long, and the instrument was very difficult to hold. Sure people made it work, but ergonomics were not really much concern back then....
FWIW.
M
Logged

Matthew Walker
Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia 1991-2006
Greenhoe Custom Trombones, Technician, Artist, Designer. 2006-2012
Getzen/Edwards Co Technician. 2013-2014
Freelance. May 2014-
Owner, M&W Custom Trombones. LLC. 2015-
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2200

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2016, 07:22AM »

The advantage, to my way of thinking, having switched from Bach, after 25+ years, to Elkhart Conn 15 years ago, is that the left hand can remain closed when using the lever to the right of the thumb.


Throw distance aside----instead of having a fulcrum floating in mid-air( Bach style), and having the balance point of the horn shift on the chops, and in mid-air, with the Conn system the tip of the thumb shifts forward and THE HAND REMAINS CLOSED IN A FIST.

Now, I'll admit that I have not used a double valve with the Conn system, and the left middle finger in play on valve #2, but it has to be a mechanical and ergonomic bonus to keep as much of the left hand in a fixed position, WITHOUT that fulcrum in mid air.

Again, Horn Builder, I haven't used one personally, so I defer to your experience, but I have always enjoyed more having the left hand remain as fixed as possible, to reduce the shift, and reduce the shift on the chops.
Logged
Joe Stanko

*
Offline Offline

Location: The East Side of Manhattan, NYC
Joined: Aug 21, 2001
Posts: 334

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2016, 08:23AM »

In regards lever geometry, there is no inherent improvement in simply having the lever go under your thumb, like the Elkhart Conn's, as opposed to over. Good lever action is dependent and good lever geometry and execution. Have you ever played a Mt Vernon-very early Elkhart Bach? They had a lever that goes under the thumb, just like Conn and this Holton, but the lever was so poorly designed that the throw was extraordinarily long, and the instrument was very difficult to hold. Sure people made it work, but ergonomics were not really much concern back then....
FWIW.
M

Matt, the Mt. Vernon 50B2 had two under-the-thumb levers which was even more cumbersome.
Logged
wgwbassbone
*
Offline Offline

Location: West Hartford, CT
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 1838

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2016, 08:35AM »

Yes, wgw, I see your point. By modern standards it is. It is convoluted, and would be a nightmare to work on for repair.

That said, it is still a Holton. If you don't want a Holton, don't buy a Holton. hah hhhahha

I'd be willing to bet that if you stuck to the 1 1/2G sized mouthpiece, that is about as large as Holton offered back in the day, you'd find the over-bracing a comfort to you. I owned a TR-180 in a city that had three or four TR-180 players working. This was in the day when Conn had moved to Abilene, so no Abilenes need apply for work, or could be found, and Bach horns were impossible to find.
You had to play a used Holton, because that was what was available.

I think that if you play "time machine" with a Tr-181 it would work. Nothing bigger than a 1 1/2G on it. When Van Haney was still doing the R&D for both King, and Holton, he eventually adopted the BENGE 1 1/2G as his personal mouthpiece, because they were a smidge larger than a stock Bach model. The 1 1/4 hadn't been invented yet, and the Benge 1 1/2G was a clone of a Mount Vernon 1 1/2G....which can be sometimes larger than a modern 1 1/2G.

FYI I play a MV 1 and 1/2G. I also play a TR 180 with a 9 and -/2 inch bell. The original 181 is overbraced. This one looks overbraced. I bet if I use my trusty 1 and 1/2G it will still be overbraced. There is NO comparison between a good 180, 185, or 169 and any 181.

Logged

Holton TR 180 MV 1 and 1/2G
Socal77
*
Offline Offline

Location: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: Nov 11, 2015
Posts: 98

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2016, 08:43AM »

FWIW, I don't have experience with that many bass trombone valve mechanism designs (just three), but I found the Elkorn (really a shame to have to actually clarify that) levers on a 1993 TR181 were very easy to hold the horn and operate both valves.  However, I have had great success in making Bach 50's easier to hold and operate using Mike Olsen's (Westside Machine Tool - Instrument Innovations, located in good ol' Elkorn, Wisconsin) "Trombone Ax Handle."  Similar to an Edwards Bullet Brace but less expensive.  Using the Ax Handle the instrument can be supported by the hand while leaving the fingers operating the valve levers positioned comfortably with no responsibility for carrying weight. In addition, Mike is a pleasure to work with and a true professional with plenty of inventions and great ideas for the future. When I paid him a visit a few months ago, he asked me to bring my Holton TR181 so he could verify the support column diameter measurement, even though the Handle i was picking up was for a Bach, so he knows the proper bracket, at least for the Elkorn 181s.
Logged
Blowero

*
Offline Offline

Location: Southern California
Joined: Nov 1, 2006
Posts: 1738

View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2016, 08:48AM »

Take note that the F attachment left thumb spatula is attached to the brace so that it is operated to the RIGHT of the left thumb.


EXACTLY like the old Elkhart Conns.
If you've ever played an Elkie you'll know that it is effortless to hold, and it plays much better than other horns for a simple ergonomic reason-- when you engage the valve only the tip of the thumb moves. You don't have some long floppy attachment fulcrum shifting the whole horn on your chops.

I don't think most players hold the horn that way. Normally, the receiver would rest against the pad at the base of your thumb, and the last 3 fingers wrap around the slide brace. The thumb does not bear any of the weight of the instrument; it is able to move freely so that it doesn't matter on which side the thumb lever is hinged. The movement of the thumb is completely independent from the ergonomics of holding the horn up. When I play, I can lift my thumb completely off the lever so that it isn't touching anything at all. If moving my thumb made the whole horn shift on my face, that indeed would be a problem. Amazed But everyone's different, so what works for one person may not work for another.
Logged

Brass repair, modifications, custom parts and instruments

http://brassmedic.com
armjstp

*
Offline Offline

Location: Virginia
Joined: Oct 6, 2007
Posts: 563

View Profile
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2016, 09:35AM »

I'd say the horn ergonomic is very good, at least to me. Especially when compare to TR180 or Bach 50. Triggers throw are surprisingly short and I like the slide braces position. Bell section is heavy probably because of all those braces, but the side is very light, so the balance is great. Bach 50B has overly light bell section but heavy slide, so it is harder to hold.
Logged

The Marching Virginians
Yamaha YBL-830 XENO
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2200

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2016, 11:14AM »

Quite so, Blowero.

Personally, myself, I never even considered it until I owned a single valve olds-school Elkhart Conn. The old Elkhart 88H is the same as the 72H/70H/60H/62H.

The difference comes into play when you do have the three spare fingers wrapped around the slide braces. On a double valve horn there are only two fingers involved there-- one remains free to activate the second valve.

I guess what I was trying to get at, is that if you just hold your hand in the air-- without the horn on you-- just the arm in the air so you can see it clearly, do the following experiment.
1. Rapidly move your middle finger and thumb in a crazy pattern violently, without pattern.
2. Watch your bare forearm....you can see the tendons going like mad.
3. Repeat the experiment and look for motion in the wrist-- it might be there.
4. Repeat the whole thing with a horn in you hand and look for motion in the wrist, that motion will indicate pulling on the chops.

Now-- do the experiment with JUST THE TIP of the left thumb rotating forward a bit-- like on an Elkhart Conn:
1. Watch the forearm tendons. See? Almost nothing. Almost no motion.

Regardless of throw distance on the valve, the less motion you do with the thumb, or fingers, the less motion there will be in the forearm.

da footbone connected to da ankle bone..and so on, until the footbone is connected to the embouchre bone.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: