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Stephen Hoffman

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« on: Sep 26, 2004, 12:54PM »

There's a King 5B on e-bay right now.  I don't really know about the 5B's as I don't think they are as widespread as the 3 and 2Bs.  Could someone enlighten me:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64377&item=3750186336&rd=1#ebayphotohosting
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Stephen
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phonyreal98

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« Reply #1 on: Sep 26, 2004, 01:21PM »

A King 5B was originally meant to be a small bass trombone, but by today's standards, qualifies as a large tenor.  I have one and it's great for 2nd and 3rd parts, but a lot of work on the 1st parts, so I'm planning to get another one in the next couple months, but, I digress.  It has a .547" bore and a 9" bell, and the F-attachment and tuning slide parts I think are supposed to be for a bass trombone because the horn is quite a bit wider than most large bore tenors.  The horn also doesn't agree with most shallow mouthpieces, get about a 6.5 AL or larger.
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Stephen Hoffman

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« Reply #2 on: Sep 26, 2004, 01:25PM »

Quote from: "phonyreal98"
A King 5B was originally meant to be a small bass trombone, but by today's standards, qualifies as a large tenor.  I have one and it's great for 2nd and 3rd parts, but a lot of work on the 1st parts, so I'm planning to get another one in the next couple months, but, I digress.  It has a .547" bore and a 9" bell, and the F-attachment and tuning slide parts I think are supposed to be for a bass trombone because the horn is quite a bit wider than most large bore tenors.  The horn also doesn't agree with most shallow mouthpieces, get about a 6.5 AL or larger.

Yeah, it is interesting how the standard bore size changes as time progresses.   Infact the ITA article on Dennis Wick touches a bit on that.
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dj kennedy

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« Reply #3 on: Sep 26, 2004, 07:17PM »

great horns   but  at the biggest size   for  sym //tens
  well some  players are using  547//562   slides
 the 5b is  big //////// big bell  
forget 6.5   -too small  
5g or bigger    4g  3g    etc
------- i have a pre  5b  designation  but its the same  horn
 no model no    on bell  -----
--------
slide is same as   4b   maybe  ??????
dont knoww if leadpipe is same
------------
and maybe the 4b  came after  
the   5b  design  ??????????????????????????????????//
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DogBone35

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« Reply #4 on: Sep 27, 2004, 09:54AM »

I second dj's recommendation on mouthpieces for a 5B.  I bought a used 5B, and it came with a 6.5 AL.  I quickly switched to a 5G, which made an immediate improvement in the sound, much more open and full.  After about a year, I tried some other mouthpieces and settled on a Griego Deco 3.5 (between a Bach 3g and 4G).  It seems about the right size for this horn -- at least for my lips, and for the 3rd part community band music that I play.

I have seen posters here say that they use the 5B as a small bass in small ensembles.  In that case, you could try even larger mouthpieces.

As for the horn itself, it gives me an open, full, warm sound, not bright and edgy like the 2B and 3B models, and not as dark as the large-bore Bachs that I have tried.  It can a little stuffy from low D on down (as do most rotary valve F-attachments), but with work, I can get those notes to open up.  It's not as open as a Thayer, but it is more open than most other rotary valves that I have tried.
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king5b
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« Reply #5 on: Sep 27, 2004, 04:47PM »

I have a 5B that I had converted to a straight horn.  Right now it is in the shop having Conn Slide connections installed.  I had been playing it with a Conn .525 bore slide and decided to convert to properly accept Conn slides.  I'll also be able to use the 5B slide with my Conn 8H  and 88H for which I do not have a .547 slide for.  This makes for a very versatile set up.
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Slidennis

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« Reply #6 on: Sep 28, 2004, 02:21AM »

Quote from: "king5b"
I have a 5B that I had converted to a straight horn.  Right now it is in the shop having Conn Slide connections installed.  I had been playing it with a Conn .525 bore slide.

Please King5B dare you tell us the smallest mpc you ever played with your King 5b/.525 set up.
I'll tell you why : It's been years that I am trying to get the best set up for myself, and I always come to play a 7'ish rim on every tbone I play, either peashooter or large bore (Nor do I go any smaller).
I can achieve a very broad and warm sound on a largebore with a 7'ish rim mpc, also in the trigger range, believe me...
But I think my lips/teeth/jaw configuration doesn't allow me to go to a broader rim without loosing nearly all : flexibility, range, etc...  The only think is to find a small rim mpc with quite a large throat and backbore, and I think I found some of them...
So, could you share with us your experience about this?
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Denis
3B, 71H, Olds Super, 52H/blessing slide, 8HT, Duo Gravis
king5b
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 28, 2004, 03:44AM »

I use a  Jet Tone Studio D for just about everything.  The rim is similar to a Bach 12C.  I use this size for everthing from a Martin Committee .485 bore to the .525 which I use with my Conn 8H and the 5B. Sometimes I use a King M21 if I want a little more bite.  If I use the .547 slide then I use a Marcenkiwitcz 12 with a large shank.  I play in a variety of jazz setting from 3rd to lead in big bands, jazz combos, dixiland, R&B.  I constanly get compliments on my tone with just about anything I play.  

Of course I don't have a big sound in the very low notes so I  do not usually play the 4th part.  In a pinch I use a 5G for those rare occasions.
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BFW
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 28, 2004, 04:57AM »

I have a Bach 12 large shank mouthpiece I used to use with my King 5B.  The sound wasn't bad, as far as I could tell, but I like the sound I get with a 5G much better.
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Brian

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Slidennis

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« Reply #9 on: Sep 28, 2004, 06:25AM »

Quote from: "king5b"
I use a  Jet Tone Studio D for just about everything.

Too bad for me! I tried the JT Studio M and S, and gave up :cry:   Then after that, I heard that the mpc Urbie Green was actually playing was the D!
Did you King5b try other JT Studio mpc to know how they compare to each other, is the deep one completely different from the two others?  Is there also this edgy line at the throat of the D?
I found the 2 others to be very soft at low dynamics, then all at once very clear and airy when pushed a little bit, strange phenomenon, not so easy to control...  Do this happen with the deep one?
Anyway thanks a lot to tell us what works for you, even if it looks not so "orthodox", if it works well for you so I am glad this combo can give you what you expect as a sound.
Now I wonder if very large mpc does not work fine with people working with lots of air, and small one, for the ones working more with lots of vibration of the lips... (that's more me...)
Oops, I know, out of topic, but I hope it is of some interest also here.... :shuffle:
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Denis
3B, 71H, Olds Super, 52H/blessing slide, 8HT, Duo Gravis
king5b
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« Reply #10 on: Sep 28, 2004, 07:58AM »

I have not tried the other Jet Tome mouthpieces.  I'm not sure why I decided to try the Studio D.  I had used a 6-1/2 AL for years but found that endurance was an issue with this mouthpiece.  I tried a 7C which whas too bright.  Next I tried a Bach 7 which I used for quite some time.  This is a very good sounding mouthpiece.  Then I got curious about the King M21.  This is a very comfortable mouthpiece which is a great match with my King 2B.  No wonder that this was the standard mouthpiece for the 2B.  The Jet-Tone Studio D has a deeper cup that the M21.  It has a conical cup that come to a sharp corner.  I provides a darker tone on smaller bore horns, which is a sound that I like.  This mouthpiece combined with larger bore horns provides the combination of endurace required for a long night of jazz playing as well as a fuller broad sound.  

Tonight I'm plaing a gig on 2nd bone in a Frank Sinatra tribute big band.  The lead player, who plays in the Navy band in Newport,, RI plays a .525 Edwards.  He tends to get a fairly bright sound.  I'm not sure what mouthpiece he uses.I'll be playing a Conn 8H with a .525 slide and the Jet-tone mouthpiece.  If I play 2nd in a band and the lead player is playing a smaller horn like a King 2B I would probably play my Conn 6H also with the Jet-tone.

I know that this is a little off-topic but what the heck.
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kpboutote
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« Reply #11 on: Oct 01, 2004, 07:52AM »

Quote from: "phonyreal98"
A King 5B was originally meant to be a small bass trombone, but by today's standards, qualifies as a large tenor.  


I'm not sure I can agree with this statement, even though it does sound logical. I'll explain.

Robert Boyd played principal in the Cleveland Orchestra on a King 5-B for a period of time unknown to me (probably during the 1960s-early 70s). But I know that he did because he donated the instrument to his (and my) alma mater, the Eastman School of Music, where I was able to play on it for about six months, oh, sometime around 1974 or 1975. It was (is?) a fine instrument with an excellent slide and it played very much like a symphony tenor, perhaps somewhere between an 88H and 42B in character. Heavier and less brilliant than the 88H in fortissimo, but brighter than the 42Bs of the time. It probably played most of all like a 4B, of course, just a bit bigger. And Robert Boyd certainly demonstrated that you can play 1st trombone well on it. (Check the recordings of Wagner overtures and opera excerpts with Szell/Cleveland for a sample. Or the Gabrieli disc with Chicago/Cleveland/Philadelphia brass.)

Mr Boyd made the donation sometime after George Szell's death in 1970. Legend has it that Maestro Szell dictated that horns would play the Conn 8D and that the trombones would play King. After his death, players had a choice and apparently some chose to change.

My own horn at the time (still) was a King Duo Gravis of similar vintage (1970), a bass trombone generally considered bright and suitable mainly for commercial work, and the 5-B felt much smaller and more agile. I also played a 62-H for a while during that period, and of course, that was even more different.

It would nice if someone who played the instrument professionally in the '60s, or someone who worked at King at the time could help us out on the reason why they marketed the 5-B. My own theory is that King was aware that the 4-B was unsuccessful in gaining much share of the symphony market, with the 88-H and 42-B being far ahead, and that having noted the gains of the weightier 42-B, thought that perhaps a bigger bell would allow King's entry to better compete. But I'm sure the exact story is more interesting than that.  ;-)  Anyone have the scoop?

I've noted that Steve Ferguson has suggested on his Web site that the current Conn 'K' bell for the new generation 88-H, derived from the 5-B bell (or perhaps identical to it), can be mated to a dual-bore .547/.562 slide or a straight .562 slide to 'create' a small bass trombone for certain applications (e.g., pit band with two tbns). IMHO, you would need one of those two slides (not a straight .547) to have anything like a bass trombone feel in the valve and pedal registers with this bell. But then I played the real 5-B, oh, so long ago.....

Peace.

Kevin
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lhalpern
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 01, 2004, 08:19AM »

I knew and studied with both Bob Boyd and Al Kofsky in the 70's and early 80's. Both of themn as well as Jim DeSano played stock 5b's for most of the time, while Ed Anderson played a Bach 50B2L.  Some time between 1978 and 1980, the head designer at King, George McKraken, started making gold brass and red brass bells for them.

Larry
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bobbalouis

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« Reply #13 on: Oct 01, 2004, 11:32AM »

Quote from: "kpboutote"
Quote from: "phonyreal98"
A King 5B was originally meant to be a small bass trombone, but by today's standards, qualifies as a large tenor.  


Robert Boyd played principal in the Cleveland Orchestra on a King 5-B for a period of time unknown to me (probably during the 1960s-early 70s).


This is so interesting and really takes me back...  I got my start on BASS trombone as a high school sophomore in 1982 on a school-owned King 5B.  Played it with a Bach 1-1/4GM (I think).  It was silverplated with a goldwashed bell.  What I remember is that I sounded like a chainsaw when I pushed it (or so I was affectionately told).  I remember the pull on the F-attachment slide being very long - this might give support to it being a "small bass" versus a "large tenor", with the long pull being to facilitate getting a low B with the trigger+7th (still virtually impossible though as I recall).  But I think the bottom line is if it was marketed as late as the 1960s or 1970s with a .547" bore, it must have been considered a large tenor.  Just my guess...  Lots of good memories on that horn...

Louis
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kpboutote
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 01, 2004, 03:54PM »

Quote from: "lhalpern"
I knew and studied with both Bob Boyd and Al Kofsky in the 70's and early 80's. Both of themn as well as Jim DeSano played stock 5b's for most of the time, while Ed Anderson played a Bach 50B2L.  


Thanks for your post, Larry! Anything else we should know?  ;-)

Mouthpieces? Did Szell really insist that they play King?

Never knew what equipment Edwin Anderson played--he, along with Don Harwood, then at the Met, were the bass trombonists of the time that I most admired (among those I had the opportunity to hear in concert). The 50B2L made a big, effortless sound in his hands, rich in fundamental and overtones. He and my teacher, George Osborn, studied with the 'Chief' at around the same time.

Perhaps you might have run into an old friend of mine from Eastman, class of '75, Jim Daniels, from northeastern Ohio and a fine bass trombonist. He would have studied with Mr Boyd around 1970 or so.

Again, thanks for adding to the discussion...

Kevin
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bobbalouis

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« Reply #15 on: Oct 01, 2004, 08:20PM »

Quote from: "kpboutote"
Perhaps you might have run into an old friend of mine from Eastman, class of '75, Jim Daniels, from northeastern Ohio and a fine bass trombonist. He would have studied with Mr Boyd around 1970 or so.


OK, this is eerie...  I thought it was neat to see a discussion about the King 5B because I started out on bass bone on one over 20 years ago...  The teacher who helped get me started???

Jim Daniels.

I'm sure it's the same guy.  Eastman '75 sounds about right.

I actually bumped into him about a year ago (maybe a little more than that) - he was playing with Rob Stoneback / "Trombosys", and they did a clinic with Bill Watrous right in my town.  He lives in northeastern PA now.

AMAZING player.  Way back then and now.

Louis
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lhalpern
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« Reply #16 on: Oct 02, 2004, 06:36AM »

Quote from: "kpboutote"

Mouthpieces? Did Szell really insist that they play King?


I don't know about that, I do know that Szell was a tyrant and that he hand picked Boyd.  George Szell died in 1970. By the time I knew and studied with Boyd and Kofsky, the orchestra was under the direction of Lorin Maazel.  The tenor trombones played 5b's because they sounded great on them and with the King factory only a few miles away, they developed a strong relationship.   Many students were given the opportunity to go to the factory and hand pick slide and bell sections.  It also gave us access to get special customizations.

Quote
Perhaps you might have run into an old friend of mine from Eastman, class of '75, Jim Daniels, from northeastern Ohio and a fine bass trombonist. He would have studied with Mr Boyd around 1970 or so.


My first contact with Boyd was as  a 13 year old in 1972. There is only one student of his from that time frame that I remember, and that is only because I kew him through the early 80's.


Larry
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kpboutote
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 02, 2004, 02:43PM »

Quote
Jim Daniels.

I'm sure it's the same guy.  Eastman '75 sounds about right.

I actually bumped into him about a year ago (maybe a little more than that) - he was playing with Rob Stoneback / "Trombosys", and they did a clinic with Bill Watrous right in my town.  He lives in northeastern PA now.

AMAZING player.  Way back then and now.


Yep, that's Jimbo. Amazing sound and technique as a 20-year old, I'm sure he plays even better now.

Last time I saw him was when we were both living in New York in the late 70s; I knew he had made a decision to leave NY to settle out near Delaware Water Gap around that time--it's gotta be him. Other trombone acquaintances/friends from that period include Nelson Hinds and Birch Johnson [both from Eastman] and Keith O'Quinn. Great players and nice guys, all. Ring any bells for anyone?

Actually, another bass trombone friend and super player, Douglas Purviance, once told me that Jim having left New York created a little more space for him, since they worked in similar circles (Mel Lewis Band, etc.). [Funny how that works--I know that engineers that I'm still very friendly with at Sony Music were tacitly pleased that I left--less competition for clients. Just part of the human condition.]

I realize that I'm shamelessly name-dropping here, but also hoping that it furthers discussion. Wouldn't mind reestabilishing contact with any of these guys, either, since I've been a expatriate for almost 10 years now. I've also plugged fellow Eastman alumnae Audrey Morrison and Janice Robinson elsewhere on the forum. Any of you listening?  :)

Anyway, glad to hear your comments, Louis, and getting started with Jim Daniels as a teacher is a genuine privilege (which you obviously appreciated).

Kevin
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kpboutote
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« Reply #18 on: Oct 02, 2004, 03:15PM »

Quote from: "lhalpern"
The tenor trombones played 5b's because they sounded great on them and with the King factory only a few miles away, they developed a strong relationship.   Many students were given the opportunity to go to the factory and hand pick slide and bell sections.  It also gave us access to get special customizations.


They sure did sound great on them. I had always assumed, ever since I saw the label inside the case, that Robert Boyd had donated the King 5-B to the Eastman School because he preferred to play something else, but perhaps he had a newer 5-B (perhaps customized in some way) and no longer needed the instrument. There's no proof to the contrary. The 88-H and 42B were everywhere then, but maybe he had just discoved (or had built) a 5-B that he liked a bit better.

I guess Jim Daniels would have been around 17 or 18 and already at Eastman in 1972. And therefore too young to have been active as a teacher in the area, and too old to have been a near contemporary of yours, Larry.  ;-) So many fine trombonists came from Ohio and other midwestern states--it's really curious. There's a real tradition of concert band excellence in that region. Most band directors in New England were aware of it at that time, and would tell us something like, ' sure, you're improving, you're doing well, but you're not competitive with what's happening in the Midwest'.

I digress from the 5-B topic, but it's amazing to me to see the continued influence (in French, one says 'rayonnement') of Emory Remington through the playing and teaching of his students (Boyd, Daniels, and SO many others), a generation or two later. My time at Eastman began nearly a year after his death, but the level of trombone playing and of the approach to music-making was so high....

Kevin
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