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Question: I identify as...
non-white - 12 (10.8%)
female - 7 (6.3%)
LGBTQ - 8 (7.2%)
differently-abled - 7 (6.3%)
non-native-English-speaking - 14 (12.6%)
none of the above - 63 (56.8%)
Total Voters: 93

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Driving Park

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« Reply #20 on: Jul 06, 2016, 09:54AM »

Unless 1/4 Chinese counts as "non-white", I sit very solidly in "None of the Above".
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« Reply #21 on: Jul 06, 2016, 11:49AM »

You can talk all you want about "diversity" here, but where the rubber meets the road...where the work is..."diversity" doesn't mean anything. It's just another politically correct buzzword. Including token minorities...no matter how they are defined...in the mainstream workplace does nothing but placate the bureaucratic hive mind that invented "political correctness" in the first place.

Let us instead speak of "equality." An equal chance for everyone...at the earliest stages of their life and forever afterward...to excel at what they do best. We can blah blah blah about "diversity" just as do the politicians, but when it gets down to actually producing systems that guarantee "equality," they all run for the hills.

Look at the ITA for all you need to know about large organizations. I was just at the ITF in NYC. Now...I know for a personally observed fact that there are literally thousands of quite seriously gifted, hard-working trombonists all over the world who are not visually identifiable as being primarily of European ascent. Where were they at that gathering? A rough visual estimate would put them at about less than 1% there. I also know that there are not many female trombonists in the mix, Why? Are we not living in a PC world? That's what the media has been telling us for several decades. If "diversity" worked as it is presently presented, would females not have the same 50-50 chance as males to excel at playing the trombone? The fact that a large number of them have defied those odds argues pretty strongly against the possibility that they simply do not have the innate talents to learn the instrument. So...where are they?

Polls do nothing.

Politics does nothing.

Blah blah blah does nothing.

Bureaucracies rule, and only individuals can make a real difference.

Judge your fellow musicians by what and how they play, and forget about so-called PC. That's really all we can do. The rest will work itself out as it must in this imperfect world.

Later...

S.

P.S. Think about this as well:

Human ecology. We prattle on about "saving the environment." We pass laws protecting little-known species of firefly, etc. All the while, we simultaneously condemn a huge percentage of the world's population...USA included...to a societal position where the idea of developing their native talents is totally overwhelmed by the sheer terror of living in day-to-day, grinding poverty.

Human ecology. The first nation or society that actively and successfully promotes that idea...the saving of the human environment at least within the confines of their own domain...will become the most successful nation that the work has ever seen as long as it is not destroyed by the users that destroy everything in their quest for personal power and riches. If the U.S. could harness the power and creativity that lives within its own ghettoized worlds for even one generation...and I include in that idea the societal ghettos that disempower females and the other several sexes that do not fit under the strict male/female rubric...the results would be earth-shaking.

But NOOOoooo....instead we continue to further separate people into endless sub-categories.

Ron Paul on racism:

Quote
Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals. Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their obsession with racial group identity is inherently racist. The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity.

Ron Paul, Government and Racism, April 16, 2007

Like dat.
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« Reply #22 on: Jul 06, 2016, 12:02PM »

I also know that there are not many female trombonists in the mix, Why? Are we not living in a PC world? That's what the media has been telling us for several decades. If "diversity" worked as it is presently presented, would females not have the same 50-50 chance as males to excel at playing the trombone? The fact that a large number of them have defied those odds argues pretty strongly against the possibility that they simply do not have the innate talents to learn the instrument. So...where are they?

Good question.  We recently did a series of performances with or in conjunction with the grade schools and high schools in the area.  Some 40% of those school age trombonists were female.  My daughter, when she went to HS was one of a 3-female trombone section in her year.  I know of only 2 adult female trombonists in the same area.  Women certainly try out trombones when they are younger, based on these numbers, but they just do not carry on with it. Don't know
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« Reply #23 on: Jul 06, 2016, 12:43PM »

Over the years I've noticed that when someone is complaining about "political correctness" (and they always use those irony quotes) it's usually someone who's bummed that they're not getting their traditional free pass to treat other people like they don't matter.
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« Reply #24 on: Jul 06, 2016, 01:06PM »

Equality is not the same as sameness. For example, men and women can be equal, but they will NEVER be the same. I can't give birth like my wife. She has difficulties lifting things that I have no problem with, and she's a pretty strong woman. On average, men are stronger. On average, women have better intrapersonal skills.

What we should be fighting for when we talk about equality is equal opportunity. Are girls allowed to pick trombone? Are girls allowed to try trombone? Are girls encouraged to choose trombone regardless of societal stereotypes? If so, then don't worry about it. There's equal opportunity but not necessarily equal results. If girls are given the same opportunity to pick trombone as the boys, there's no foul play.

The flip side is not allowing girls the ability to pick, choose, or play the trombone. Also, the flip side may involves stereotypes like "only fat girls choose trombone". Of course I don't believe that phrase, but it's a common stereotype girls choosing the trombone must deal with. In this case, it isn't equal opportunity. If they aren't allowed to choose the trombone, that's obvious lack of opportunity. Society also "chooses" for people through stereotypes, providing another blow to opportunity.

Like I said, as long as there is equal opportunity, there's no need to have to meet a quota.
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« Reply #25 on: Jul 06, 2016, 02:01PM »

I identify as short, old, a little too chunky, and white. Sorry, I can't change how I was born. Except that I wasn't born old or chunky.
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« Reply #26 on: Jul 06, 2016, 02:37PM »

Over the years I've noticed that when someone is complaining about "political correctness" (and they always use those irony quotes) it's usually someone who's bummed that they're not getting their traditional free pass to treat other people like they don't matter.

Feel free to correct me on that but I get the impression you just jumped on the term "political correctness" here without really considering the context in which it was presented.
Just doesn't seem to fit in this case if you ask me.


Good question.  We recently did a series of performances with or in conjunction with the grade schools and high schools in the area.  Some 40% of those school age trombonists were female.  My daughter, when she went to HS was one of a 3-female trombone section in her year.  I know of only 2 adult female trombonists in the same area.  Women certainly try out trombones when they are younger, based on these numbers, but they just do not carry on with it. Don't know


I think the idea of letting children choose what they want to play (or other activities to engage in) and not shoving them into some stereotype is fairly widespread with parents now.
And kids in my experience generally won't find anything unusual about girls playing trombone (or boys playing flute for that matter) if they haven't encountered or noticed those stereotypes yet.
Also the difference between boys and girls won't matter that much to younger children.

As they get older they might get some weird looks, I doubt there will be too much outright hostility, but even neutral or positive recognition of doing something quirky, unusual can over time create a feeling of not really being where one belongs.
And where the determinded ones with a good deal of self confidence will be able tho deal with that, those who find it important to swim with the current and maybe just weren't that serious about playing anyway might switch or give up playing

Just an idea
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« Reply #27 on: Jul 06, 2016, 02:49PM »

Good poll!  Good! 

...but... I just sat on a wasp :( and It hurts...Could not find that option anywhere..

Sure I'm non native English too  Hi

/Tom
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« Reply #28 on: Jul 06, 2016, 03:00PM »

You can talk all you want about "diversity" here, but where the rubber meets the road...where the work is..."diversity" doesn't mean anything. It's just another politically correct buzzword. Including token minorities...no matter how they are defined...in the mainstream workplace does nothing but placate the bureaucratic hive mind that invented "political correctness" in the first place.

Let us instead speak of "equality." An equal chance for everyone...at the earliest stages of their life and forever afterward...to excel at what they do best. We can blah blah blah about "diversity" just as do the politicians, but when it gets down to actually producing systems that guarantee "equality," they all run for the hills.

Look at the ITA for all you need to know about large organizations. I was just at the ITF in NYC. Now...I know for a personally observed fact that there are literally thousands of quite seriously gifted, hard-working trombonists all over the world who are not visually identifiable as being primarily of European ascent. Where were they at that gathering? A rough visual estimate would put them at about less than 1% there. I also know that there are not many female trombonists in the mix, Why? Are we not living in a PC world? That's what the media has been telling us for several decades. If "diversity" worked as it is presently presented, would females not have the same 50-50 chance as males to excel at playing the trombone? The fact that a large number of them have defied those odds argues pretty strongly against the possibility that they simply do not have the innate talents to learn the instrument. So...where are they?

Polls do nothing.

Politics does nothing.

Blah blah blah does nothing.

Bureaucracies rule, and only individuals can make a real difference.

Judge your fellow musicians by what and how they play, and forget about so-called PC. That's really all we can do. The rest will work itself out as it must in this imperfect world.

Later...

S.

P.S. Think about this as well:

Human ecology. We prattle on about "saving the environment." We pass laws protecting little-known species of firefly, etc. All the while, we simultaneously condemn a huge percentage of the world's population...USA included...to a societal position where the idea of developing their native talents is totally overwhelmed by the sheer terror of living in day-to-day, grinding poverty.

Human ecology. The first nation or society that actively and successfully promotes that idea...the saving of the human environment at least within the confines of their own domain...will become the most successful nation that the work has ever seen as long as it is not destroyed by the users that destroy everything in their quest for personal power and riches. If the U.S. could harness the power and creativity that lives within its own ghettoized worlds for even one generation...and I include in that idea the societal ghettos that disempower females and the other several sexes that do not fit under the strict male/female rubric...the results would be earth-shaking.

But NOOOoooo....instead we continue to further separate people into endless sub-categories.

Ron Paul on racism:

Like dat.

I like that Mr. Burtis, Thanks
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« Reply #29 on: Jul 07, 2016, 12:23AM »

What's wrong with white dudes? My history book is all about them and for the most part they seem OK unless you have something they want.

Seriously, there should be a true discussion on diversity between the members of this forum. I learned in Latin class that for a few hundred years in the Roman Empire it didn't matter where you came from or what race you were so long as you were Roman, and all you had to do to be Roman was act like a Roman and live within Rome's borders. Considering the time period, Rome did all right besides a lot of women's rights issues. Most of the people who flocked to Rome did so because they wanted to be joiners (or were freed and realized that Rome was still better than their previous cesspool), and didn't want to be different. There were latin, spanish, celtic and african emperors who ruled Rome and considered themselves Roman. Talk about diversity.

Today it's like a badge of honor to show off and parade social differences in order for people to feel important. To me, this is rude. Really rude. It's gotten to the point where people who were born unquestionably as either biologically men or women demand their own bathroom because they decided the one they've used their entire lives doesn't suit their own opinion of biological gender any more. That's not a social problem. That's a case of someone who's got nothing better to do than worry about themselves and think about their own ego all day.

Whatever happened to fitting in? Remember high school? That's what high school revolved around. Humans are wired to want to fit into a society. Fighting that after a certain point is kind of dumb.

We should be moving towards a reduced emphasis on these social diversities that we keep trying to categorize.

What gender are you? "Well, unless I'm blind, that's pretty easy to answer. If you want to make it a difficult question to answer -- who cares? What skills do you have and what will you accomplish in your life? That's all that I care about once you bring doubt up about your gender because at that point there is no interaction that involves gender that will happen between me and you, and I still value you as a human being."

What is your sexual orientation? "Really, no one cares, besides potential mates. Besides however many mates you get down with, nobody gives a damn unless you make it an issue, which is rude."

What race are you? "Unless you are really in the boonies or dealing with bigots who only see race and discriminate, this question is actually 'what race-stereotype social norms do you follow, and how committed to pideonholing yourself into a race are you?' If you only hang out with people who are the same race as you and share social norms based on race with that group of friends you'll be socially a very different person from someone of any race who chooses to associate with a racially diverse group of friends that share common social-norms. This is that part where I think Rome had it right. A country full of a diverse population of people trying desperately to be Roman is a lot better than a country full of segregated groups of people trying to stick to their roots to the exclusion of their society as a whole."

Are you disabled? "This is actually a question that matters, especially if the disability is not obvious. Some disabled people like to be defined by their disability and how they have overcome it, but this is no different from challenges that all people are proud of overcoming. I know that a lot of disabled people are a lot happier to just fit in and to have their disability just be something that is not a big deal. I went to high school with a deaf girl. After kids realized that her unique accent didn't have any correlation with the very normal and well-adjusted stuff she was actually saying and that she was really good at reading lips, it was a non-issue. Way better that way, especially since she was not in any way lacking friends and interested boys. And ironically, the one social issue where I think it's critical that everybody pitch in to provide equal opportunity, namely affording disabled citizens who have been dealt a tough hand every opportunity to contribute to and be a valuable part of their society, is trumped in the news by dumb issues like bathrooms and safe spaces. People born or befallen with actual disabling conditions get less attention than people who logic their way into a not disabling condition..."

Am I nuts for dreaming of a society where people stop feeling sorry for themselves and just try to be a good member of that society without regards to the meaninglessness of diversity? I think getting hung up on it holds us back. Let's get unisex bathrooms, remind our friends that making a big deal about sex like it's a social movement is still rude and no one cares about what they do in private, and work on acheiving the type of society portrayed in sesame street and star trek rather than the socially segregated reality that we live in today.
Well said, and politically incorrect, thank goodness.  Stop pigeon-holing people into "groups", for cryin' out loud!  Just be people! 
 
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« Reply #30 on: Jul 07, 2016, 12:22PM »

I detest Newspeak terms like "differently abled". What BS!
I'm disabled, as in I'm not able to do what folks without my medical problems are ABLE to do. Words mean things.

And besides, who really cares about this stuff anyway?
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« Reply #31 on: Jul 07, 2016, 07:14PM »

It matters because

(1) People who aren't exactly like me will have different perspectives on things. It's good to hear from different perspectives.

(2) If this place feels like a club for straight white American dudes, that can be offputting if you're not a straight white American dude.


I don't want to miss the perspectives of people who have something to say, who aren't saying those things because they don't come here, because they don't feel like they can belong to the club.
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« Reply #32 on: Jul 07, 2016, 08:53PM »

There are several people here venting their rage that "diversity" is a concept or even mentioned.

There must be some personal experience where your life or career has been derailed unfairly because of diversity?

Let's hear them.  Show me there's more to this that the word salad we've heard so far.

Names, places... give us some facts about how you personally have been affected.


Feel free to correct me on that but...

OK, since you asked, since you said to "feel free"... you're wrong.


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« Reply #33 on: Jul 07, 2016, 10:44PM »

There are several people here venting their rage that "diversity" is a concept or even mentioned.

There must be some personal experience where your life or career has been derailed unfairly because of diversity?

No.

I personally have defied the "diversity" meme on every level of my career. I have played in primarily white bands, primarily black bands, primarily latin bands...and...best of all, bet on it...totally mixed bands for almost 50 years in NYC at the highest levels of accomplishment. All I have to say is that it is the totally mixed bands...the bands that hire according to only one quality (great musicality)...are the ones where the real thing happens.

Quote
Let's hear them.  Show me there's more to this that the word salad we've heard so far.

Names, places... give us some facts about how you personally have been affected.

Go look at my resume.

Why would I have any reason on earth to complain because of how I have "personally...been affected?"

My complaint has to do with inferior musicians...black, brown or beige, male, female or "other"...being hired because of some PC notion of "inclusion."

Get with the program, robcat.

The musical program.

Give people equal opportunity at the beginning levels of education and then cherry-pick the best ones for further advancement. There's no other way to get things done.

Do you think that Miles Davis chose Gil Evans...or later, Bill Evans...over many other competing black musicians because of some sort of reverse PC ethos?

Get real.

He chose them because they were the best available in their field at the time.

Get real.

It works both ways.

Bet on it.

S.
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« Reply #34 on: Jul 08, 2016, 02:55AM »

I think that downplaying the differences between people is the next logical step in the various civil rights movements, so that people's deeds and work ethic and talent are what really start to define an individual. As segregation, gender  discrimination, intolerance towards LGBT issues, and other such discrimination disolve, the rallies and protests associated with these civil rights movements (which act to define and socially segregate these groups) should erode as well. The new feminist movement that we see in colleges around the world today is a great example of such a movement that is actively working to increase gender discrimination. Priveledge checking, safe spaces, triggering actions, and man-hating are facets of this neo movement that acheive the exact opposite of gender equality. Every woman I know and work with thinks that this neo feminism movement is embarrassing.

I worked with an actual African-American (as in, he  changed citizenship from a country in Africa to US citizenship) in the Army. He was a stellar paratrooper, completed Ranger School, and was a great leader. He hated when people only associated with their own self-defined groups or when people performed less than their best and blamed it on their circumstances. His best quote and one he said very often in response to people asking him why he acted the way he did and associated with the people he associated with was:

"In Africa there are no "black people" --  there are just people"

He was saying quite a lot with that one statement. Of course, some countries in Africa have had some of the worst problems with racism and genocide, but he was making a statement about something else. Where he came from, bright people were bright, stupid people were stupid, and your place in life had nothing to do with race. He loved the Army because he was able to shine and he just had to act like a Soldier and do his personal best and the sky was the limit for him.

I think that diversity is bad in the traditional sense of what we think of as diversity. It's just as backwards to think "this group isn't diverse at all -- there's not enough giraffe-hybrid alto-trombone playing plankton in this group" as it is to think "who let the trombone playing female into the group? There goes the neighborhood!". They are both equally discriminatory. Especially in a music related forum. Like Sam said, if you can play or if you have good ideas about music, the rest of the details do not matter at all.
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« Reply #35 on: Jul 08, 2016, 03:19AM »

OK, since you asked, since you said to "feel free"... you're wrong.

Great explanation  Good!
Maybe context doesn't even matter that much. To be fair I see more people in general complaining about PC than people trying to enforce it.

On the subject of diversity: I see it really more of an outcome of a fair society than a means to get there.
You certainly can look at  a group of people and if you find a very homogeneous composition maybe that hints at a problem with equality (which should be eradicated) or maybe you have issues that are beyond your control e.g. some groups are not that likely to choose a certain career path due to a lack of role models and so on.
This issue of course should be adressed but you don't have the same justification as with equal opportunities to just go in there and regulate everything. You need to take a more measured approach and that is where I think the real potential for conflict lies.
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« Reply #36 on: Oct 11, 2016, 04:42AM »

As far as Diversity is concerned, as a Musician, Diversity to me means..
I can play in any style that is thrown at me on any given night and sound like that`s what I`ve been doing my whole life.
I don`t care if I`m playing with an all Black Band , all White band, In a horn section backing up an all Female Band, Dixieland, Avant Garde,
James Brown, Glenn Miller or Renaisance music  , Beethoven or anything else. It`s all MUSIC and that`s what I do.
To really survive as a player you have to be diverse.
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« Reply #37 on: Oct 11, 2016, 04:54AM »

"non-native-English-speaking"

Taking the whole world into account should this not be "non-native-Mandarin-speaking" ?  Evil

Ronnie
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« Reply #38 on: Oct 11, 2016, 09:10AM »

As far as Diversity is concerned, as a Musician, Diversity to me means..
I can play in any style that is thrown at me on any given night and sound like that`s what I`ve been doing my whole life.
I don`t care if I`m playing with an all Black Band , all White band, In a horn section backing up an all Female Band, Dixieland, Avant Garde,
James Brown, Glenn Miller or Renaisance music  , Beethoven or anything else. It`s all MUSIC and that`s what I do.
To really survive as a player you have to be diverse.

Me too.

Exactly that.

Thank you.

S.
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« Reply #39 on: Oct 11, 2016, 11:04AM »

Me too.

Exactly that.

Thank you.

S.
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